39 replies to this topic

[MaV3rick737]

This whole "balance" business is a crock for a lot of reasons, but I'll try to keep this relatively short and relatively RAGE!!! free.

-Standing Inner Sphere quirks have ALWAYS (in MWO, anyway) been the balancing factor vs clanners, if not downright turning the tables in some cases.

-Clan 'Mechs have a number of BUILT IN balancing factors (no engine swapping, locked-in components, HIGH heat, etc, etc)

-Clan "Mechs are, wait for it..... SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER!!!!

This most recent batch of changes SEEMS, I may well be wrong, but SEEMS to be nothing more than catering to the "OP whiners" rather than assessing stats and actual battle efficacy. It also seems to have broken the blue bujeezuzz out of CW. Kind of disapointing. Also makes me wonder if ANYONE at PGI is actually switching between Clan and I.S. and playing CW matches, as many of us merc. units do. I just know the balance doesn't feel very balanced from THIS cockpit.....

[MrMilkshake]

I must admit i tend to agree.
I understand the need for balance here but i'm failing to see how the clan mechs are getting their fair share of it anymore. Our engines are locked out, heat is higher, when our torso is destroyed its like being legged, our lasers take longer to do damage and a dire wolf with a mark 7 computer and range module is on par with a jenner for range ?
I really would like someone to tell me the juxstapose position of the clan mechs to IS these days. i haven't had any I.S mechs in a long time. But playing CW it feels like all my mechs are made of paper and im doing way less damage.

[DoctorDetroit]

While I don't like a few of the changes, such as making IS long range dominant over clans. I immediately disagree with the OP "Clan mechs should be better" nonsense.

For the record I played clan for Tukayyid 2 and usually more than %50 of the time.

[DivineEvil]

MaV3rick737, on 13 December 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

-Standing Inner Sphere quirks have ALWAYS (in MWO, anyway) been the balancing factor vs clanners, if not downright turning the tables in some cases.

Uh, yeah. So? What's you point?

Quote

-Clan 'Mechs have a number of BUILT IN balancing factors (no engine swapping, locked-in components, HIGH heat, etc, etc)

These built-in balancing factors are there for balancing better equipment. No-swap engines partially balances their advantages over IS engines, locked-in components compensate for overall better equipment and upgrades. Heat is not higher than on the IS side, just more punishing against alpha-strike abuse with stronger Clan weapons, and Clan mechs generally can handle a lot more heatsinks, than IS, Et Cetera.

Recent changes were implemented to affect the actual in-field performance of Clan mechs. Both tech-bases has their built-in limitations, but as soon as mechs are dropped in combat, they're irrelevant.

Quote

-Clan Mechs are, wait for it..... SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER!!!!

Whatever supposed to be what, is up for the developers to decide, not for you. PGI has claimed, that Clan mechs will be brought down to match IS mechs before even releasing the first stock of them. If you were against that approach, it makes me wonder, why are you still around. I can as well say, that Clan players were supposed to be better, but it seems that vast majority of them only satisfied with running clearly superior tech to compensate for their incompetence in gaming skills. And when Clan mechs were actually brought in line with IS mechs, that incompetence is now showing, while skill-forged pilots know how to make Clan mechs work by their strong sides.

Quote

This most recent batch of changes SEEMS, I may well be wrong, but SEEMS to be nothing more than catering to the "OP whiners" rather than assessing stats and actual battle efficacy. It also seems to have broken the blue bujeezuzz out of CW. Kind of disapointing. Also makes me wonder if ANYONE at PGI is actually switching between Clan and I.S. and playing CW matches, as many of us merc. units do. I just know the balance doesn't feel very balanced from THIS cockpit.....

Your cockpit is quite small then. Because from it, you cannot see how the balance between IS and Clans is as close as it ever were in Battletech history.

Edited by DivineEvil, 14 December 2015 - 03:22 PM.

[SkippyT72]

It's close but the structure buffs need to be looked at on some of the IS mechs and needs to be given to some of the weaker clan mechs if we want to see more of them being played. For the most part the game is as balanced as I've seen it and fun to play except for the aforementioned things that need to be looked at.

[Haralachan]

MrMilkshake, on 14 December 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

i haven't had any I.S mechs in a long time. But playing CW it feels like all my mechs are made of paper and im doing way less damage.

Our crew has started messing around on IS side. Took a trial thunderwub into 3 matches, came out with thousands in damage and match score, 14 kills, and 21k experience, no deaths. Just took everyone and curbstomped the **** out of them. My suggestion? All clans go IS, then commence the succession wars. Show them what it's like when the skilled pilots take THEIR mechs. Ha!

[Tamashii]

The problem are the overquirked mechs, it can not be that the IS got more range as some clan machines.
IS brawls better (cooldown times, pinpoint, heat), so give the Clans the long range advantage back and remove the range quirks on IS side!
If I put 4ERL Laser in a Clanchassis, immediately I get a heat problem, do the same in a Battlemaster and see what happens, the Battlemaster can handle much more DPS and he got the range qirks as well.

Either we change to IS, or we fight against ourselfes to get good balanced CW games.
I am not that kind of guy who love CW games cause of winning, I love them when it goes really close and the tension is up to the last minute, this is what PGI should achive!

Edited by Tamashii, 05 January 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[Roland09]

Tamashii, on 05 January 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

The problem are the overquirked mechs, it can not be that the IS got more range as some clan machines.
IS brawls better (cooldown times, pinpoint, heat), so give the Clans the long range advantage back and remove the range quirks on IS side!
If I put 4ERL Laser in a Clanchassis, immediately I get a heat problem, do the same in a Battlemaster and see what happens, the Battlemaster can handle much more DPS and he got the range qirks as well.

Either we change to IS, or we fight against ourselfes to get good balanced CW games.
I am not that kind of guy who love CW games cause of winning, I love them when it goes really close and the tension is up to the last minute, this is what PGI should achive!

I like the blanket statements.

"It can not be that the IS got more range as some clan machines." Uh, and why not? Because "Clans are supposed to be better!"? You never thought of adding more heat sinks to your 4 ERL Laser mech? That long range IS mech you rant about, will that also "brawl better" than your clan mechs? All at the same time? It is totally inconceivable that IS mechs can be built to excel - and, gasp! - exceed clan mechs at very specific tasks? So, when you encounter specific IS mechs, you need to play to their strengths, and cannot bring your strong points to bear? Is your sense of entitlement being offended? Your "I win!"-button not large enough?

Questions, questions...

[PFC Carsten]

MrMilkshake, on 14 December 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

I must admit i tend to agree.
I understand the need for balance here but i'm failing to see how the clan mechs are getting their fair share of it anymore. Our engines are locked out, heat is higher, when our torso is destroyed its like being legged, our lasers take longer to do damage and a dire wolf with a mark 7 computer and range module is on par with a jenner for range ?

I think this is kind of one-sided.
Maybe clanners have gotten so used to all the benefits they have, they don't even know them any more.

Here's a shortlist from the top of my head:

- Endo/Ferro cost only 7 slots each, not 14.
- XL-sidetorso loss doesn't instantly kill you.
- Your DHS occupy only 2 slots instead of 3.

A few select weapons
- Your Gauss weighs 3 tons less and occupies 1 slot less (other ballistics often similar)
- Your uber-OP cERMLas, what IS calls LLas. Weighs 1 ton, is practically as usable as an ISLLas
- LRMs? Talk about 10 for 2.5 tons - IS is twice that and occupies the usual slot more. Arguably a matter of taste, but I like the stream of LRMs better for suppression as well.

And you've got all that in every single applicable chassis.

Of course, IS has advantages, i won't deny that and a lot of the structure quirks are a bit too much as we know it from PGI. But in sum I don't think that IS is OP atm.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Roland09, on 05 January 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

I like the blanket statements.

"It can not be that the IS got more range as some clan machines." Uh, and why not? Because "Clans are supposed to be better!"? You never thought of adding more heat sinks to your 4 ERL Laser mech? That long range IS mech you rant about, will that also "brawl better" than your clan mechs? All at the same time? It is totally inconceivable that IS mechs can be built to excel - and, gasp! - exceed clan mechs at very specific tasks? So, when you encounter specific IS mechs, you need to play to their strengths, and cannot bring your strong points to bear? Is your sense of entitlement being offended? Your "I win!"-button not large enough?

Questions, questions...

Wich planet are from? Have you been playing the same game as everyone?
Listen, IS is OP, i know that, you know that and all the clan players know that! The problem is that this new found OPness on IS is being so good that IS players dont want to let go of it, stating the same old whine that "clans OP, nerf!!!".

The problem i see in IS is that most players are pre-programmed to think that clans are OP, wich haevent been since 2 nerfs ago. And the comp teams knows that. We see a clan mech and think OP. We kill a clan mech and think "im good dammit", we get killed by a clan mech and we think "those clan mechs are so OP, im so angry... unfair... NERF!!!".
The reality is that most IS when fighting against clans usually take a more defensive stance... and we all know that who ever are agressive in this game, usually wins. Now, with all the buffs on IS, and nerfs on clans, even a drop in CW with 12 pugs on IS side vs 12 man team on clan side, the clan team will have to use the most of its tactics to actually win!

Conclusion: IS, we have the better mechs, the better tech, so stomping clans is easy mode on!

[Jack Spade Ward]

PFC Carsten, on 05 January 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

I think this is kind of one-sided.
Maybe clanners have gotten so used to all the benefits they have, they don't even know them any more.

Here's a shortlist from the top of my head:

- Endo/Ferro cost only 7 slots each, not 14.
- XL-sidetorso loss doesn't instantly kill you.
- Your DHS occupy only 2 slots instead of 3.

A few select weapons
- Your Gauss weighs 3 tons less and occupies 1 slot less (other ballistics often similar)
- Your uber-OP cERMLas, what IS calls LLas. Weighs 1 ton, is practically as usable as an ISLLas
- LRMs? Talk about 10 for 2.5 tons - IS is twice that and occupies the usual slot more. Arguably a matter of taste, but I like the stream of LRMs better for suppression as well.

And you've got all that in every single applicable chassis.

Of course, IS has advantages, i won't deny that and a lot of the structure quirks are a bit too much as we know it from PGI. But in sum I don't think that IS is OP atm.

LOL

ok... let me instruct you a bit:

clan LRMs weigh less, but are way worst, more heat, less efficient, spread way more and the straight line gets shot down by AMS easelly
clan lasers are nerfed to the ground, longer burn times, spread dmg way too much, wont go further than any IS lasers (besides what people think), alot more heat, bad...
clan ACs are... well, there's no way around it, clan UACs are way bad... bugs, bad hit reg, hot weapons, spread way too much dmg, these arent used for a reason
clan gauss same as IS, operationally
clan omnipods are way overrated
clan omnimechs cant sawp engines, cant turn on/off endo, ferro and built-in heatsinks, jumpjets, whatever...
clan double heatsinks are, for all purposes, single heatsinks, their heat limit is way to low...

In fact, clan mechs can increase your DPS, but will decrease hugelly your efficiency. No pin-point alpha whatsoever.
IS, in the other hand, can out-perform clan tech in every single category! Lower DPS, but highly eficient!

I can see that the IIC mechs are the clans only hope, but those need quirks urgently...

[Roland09]

Spadejack, on 05 January 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Wich planet are from? Have you been playing the same game as everyone?
Listen, IS is OP, i know that, you know that and all the clan players know that! The problem is that this new found OPness on IS is being so good that IS players dont want to let go of it, stating the same old whine that "clans OP, nerf!!!".

The problem i see in IS is that most players are pre-programmed to think that clans are OP, wich haevent been since 2 nerfs ago. And the comp teams knows that. We see a clan mech and think OP. We kill a clan mech and think "im good dammit", we get killed by a clan mech and we think "those clan mechs are so OP, im so angry... unfair... NERF!!!".
The reality is that most IS when fighting against clans usually take a more defensive stance... and we all know that who ever are agressive in this game, usually wins. Now, with all the buffs on IS, and nerfs on clans, even a drop in CW with 12 pugs on IS side vs 12 man team on clan side, the clan team will have to use the most of its tactics to actually win!

Conclusion: IS, we have the better mechs, the better tech, so stomping clans is easy mode on!

I was addressing Tamashii, not you. But since you got into the conversation, feel free to reply to any or all of my questions which I had asked in response to the blanket statement that "It cannot be that the IS got more range as some clan machines."

I might also add that I would strongly prefer if your answers would not solely consist of more overly generalized blanket statements as well (such as "IS is OP, [...] you know that [...]).

Oh, and I would very much appreciate if you could refrain from telling me what I think. Obregado.

Edited by Roland09, 05 January 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Just gonna repost this I wrote earlier from another thread, because I can't be bothered to retype it again:)

"I couldn't agree more. I think issue here is:
MWO combat is about damage dealt/received per contact window. Now, to win the damage trade per contact window you need to be able to get your damage on target whilst taking less. This obviously favours front loaded pin point weapons. Secondly over the course of any given trade, you may have 30 seconds of smaller "windows" these windows are dictated by heat and exposure time and frequency. If you can have 5 "windows" to your opponent's 3, then you have an edge.

Currently the Inner Sphere mechs are generally cooler, with shorter duration lasers and heavily quirked pin point weapons. they are generally higher velocity,and faster cooldown.
they also tend to have comparable armour values backed up by structure quirks.
due to the shorter duration lasers and buffed srms/ballistics their damage tends to be more "efficient" per shot. This means more damage goes where you want it with less "wastage."

for example, an Is mech and a clan mech go at it at 600m with their versions of ERLL. Both do full damage at that range. The Is laser has a 20% duration lessening quirk. the Is mech puts his/her full damage out in one second. The clanner does his/hers in 1.5 seconds. This means the Is mech can place a full burn (9pts) and still start to twist BEFORE the clanner's damage is even applied fully. The Is mech would be able to spread that damage across 2-3 components, combined with said structure quirks......result is obvious. This generally applies to all clan lasers and AC.....
Attrition IS mech wins, every single time.......

Currently many Is mechs can out range, out alpha, out efficiency and out survive their clan counterparts.
I am now struggling to kit out and build my clan mechs, my first act was to start rationlising and try to logically wok out counters to IS tech (remember, I run BOTH sets of tech frequently). Trouble is if you factor in the above there isn't a direct counter in most cases....
you have to hope they are worse at the game than you are......two pilots of equal talent=bad news for the clan mech....
Right now CW fun is IS v IS seems good balance. Trouble is, it's s slap in the face for people that paid a premium for clan mechs with real cash. Not saying they should be anymore powerful at all-but they MUST be equally viable.
MANY of the comp level players I have spoken too and other units are saying the same thing: IS has the edge, in nearly EVERY field."

Now bear in mind I'm a predominantly IS player. I own these "op" mechs and benefit from them. I know how they perform compared to the equivalent clan mech-because I own them. The above is my, and many others' observations of how things are currently.
If you look 100% objectively and without any silly anti clan bias, you should reach a simliar conclusion.
Things are not right currently.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Roland09, on 05 January 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

I was addressing Tamashii, not you. But since you got into the conversation, feel free to reply to any or all of my questions which I had asked in response to the blanket statement that "It cannot be that the IS got more range as some clan machines."

I might also add that I would strongly prefer if your answers would not solely consist of more overly generalized blanket statements as well (such as "IS is OP, [...] you know that [...]).

Oh, and I would very much appreciate if you could refrain from telling me what I think. Obregado.

Well, i could show you numbers that proove what im trying to say, still, with the post you made before, i didnt really bother.
You, as many other IS players, still suffer from a condition called "Clan Mechs OP". That condition makes you think that, besides clan tech being nerfed to ground, will ever be OP.
So, as i said before, i know that, mercs know that and i thought that you knew that also. The fact you dont, makes me conclude that you suffer from the condition i said above.
If you dont beleive me, join a clan unit, take your own conclusions, and come back here after a month Stay safe
PS- your welcome

kamiko kross, well said

[Der Hesse]

Roland09, don´t try to get numbers from them. It´s no use. I had numerous discussions like that. Even if you get numbers they are wrong and when you prove it they abandon the thread or start over with new generalizations in best case like "Clans are supposed to be better".
Save your time and use it to show them where their skills really stand in CW until PGI gives in to the whining and destroys the now finally existing balance.
Or just bash Clan Davion. That´s always a good idea.^^

[Tamashii]

Tamashii, on 05 January 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Either we change to IS, or we fight against ourselfes to get good balanced CW games.
I am not that kind of guy who love CW games cause of winning, I love them when it goes really close and the tension is up to the last minute, this is what PGI should achive!

@ Roland09:
Did you read that in my post? apparently not!

In my Hangar a lot of Clan and IS Mechs are stored, we switch to the Dragon sometimes, and I am really sorry to say, but the IS overquirked Mechs do the unbalance in CW.

A Battlemaster can fire his ERLL (2 by 2) plenty times to reach the heat warning, any heavy or assault Clanmech will shut down a lot earlier, and yes I got the Mech full of DHS Buddy.

For me it looks like you never played Clan before...

Edited by Tamashii, 06 January 2016 - 02:24 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

Spadejack, on 05 January 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

LOL
ok... let me instruct you a bit:

No need to LOL, but if you feel bemused, feel free. I however won't open my post with such a disrespectful acronym and I won't try to force my opinion on you either („instruct“) - but to each his own. So, I will only comment on parts of your „instructions“.

Spadejack, on 05 January 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

clan LRMs weigh less, but are way worst, more heat, less efficient, spread way more and the straight line gets shot down by AMS easelly

First: That's why I said I like it for the suppression effect. Second, susceptibility to being shot down easily by AMS has a prerequisite: AMS on the targeted mech or some of his friends, which in turn carries weight penalties. Good indicators of hidden mechs, if people forget to turn it of as well I might add. Good news: IS-AMS does not weigh more than cAMS. But something else does: Active probes. 2 slots/1.5 tons for IS, 1/1 for Clan.

Spadejack, on 05 January 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

clan lasers are nerfed to the ground, longer burn times, spread dmg way too much, wont go further than any IS lasers (besides what people think), alot more heat, bad...
Yeah, I know. Lasers are a pain to use with clans. Hardly usable. That's probably why they are like this:
clan ACs are... well, there's no way around it, clan UACs are way bad... bugs, bad hit reg, hot weapons, spread way too much dmg, these arent used for a reason
clan gauss same as IS, operationally
clan omnipods are way overrated
clan omnimechs cant sawp engines, cant turn on/off endo, ferro and built-in heatsinks, jumpjets, whatever...
clan double heatsinks are, for all purposes, single heatsinks, their heat limit is way to low...

In fact, clan mechs can increase your DPS, but will decrease hugelly your efficiency. No pin-point alpha whatsoever.
IS, in the other hand, can out-perform clan tech in every single category! Lower DPS, but highly eficient!

I can see that the IIC mechs are the clans only hope, but those need quirks urgently...

I don't know much about it, but on this metamechs-site, tier 1 mechs in every weight class use most of them nonetheless. They wouldn't be Tier 1 in competitive, if they weren't competitive right? Or is there also a discrimination between IS and Clan in place as in Faction Play?

They weigh less, the mechs are more nimble with larger engines, thus being able merely not to spread, but to avoid damage in the first place to a higher degree. And from what I saw there from a quick glance: Most of the "Tier 1" IS-mechs below the assault class seem to rely heavily on XL-engines - Boom.

IMHO - and call me in need of instruction all day long if you want - IS is not OP, it has different strengths - as have the clans. Use both wisely and you'll be able to succeed in both.

[Lily from animove]

PFC Carsten, on 06 January 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

No need to LOL, but if you feel bemused, feel free. I however won't open my post with such a disrespectful acronym and I won't try to force my opinion on you either („instruct“) - but to each his own. So, I will only comment on parts of your „instructions“.


First: That's why I said I like it for the suppression effect. Second, susceptibility to being shot down easily by AMS has a prerequisite: AMS on the targeted mech or some of his friends, which in turn carries weight penalties. Good indicators of hidden mechs, if people forget to turn it of as well I might add. Good news: IS-AMS does not weigh more than cAMS. But something else does: Active probes. 2 slots/1.5 tons for IS, 1/1 for Clan.



I don't know much about it, but on this metamechs-site, tier 1 mechs in every weight class use most of them nonetheless. They wouldn't be Tier 1 in competitive, if they weren't competitive right? Or is there also a discrimination between IS and Clan in place as in Faction Play?

They weigh less, the mechs are more nimble with larger engines, thus being able merely not to spread, but to avoid damage in the first place to a higher degree. And from what I saw there from a quick glance: Most of the "Tier 1" IS-mechs below the assault class seem to rely heavily on XL-engines - Boom.

IMHO - and call me in need of instruction all day long if you want - IS is not OP, it has different strengths - as have the clans. Use both wisely and you'll be able to succeed in both.

not anymore if both sides use their mechs equally wisely the IS would outclass the clanners. The changes PGI made now led to this result.

In the end, PGI should stop balancing clan vs IS, and just focus on chassis balance because when chassis are balanced the factions automatically balance as well.

[Der Hesse]

Lily from animove, on 06 January 2016 - 05:32 AM, said:

not anymore if both sides use their mechs equally wisely the IS would outclass the clanners. The changes PGI made now led to this result.

In the end, PGI should stop balancing clan vs IS, and just focus on chassis balance because when chassis are balanced the factions automatically balance as well.

Haha, i didn´t think i would ever agree with you and now i have to. ^^
But in all honesty, it is hard to balance mech/mech if they use different tech.

[CwStrife]

Clan has a higher alpha. I run thunderwubs most of the time and I have almost all my armor on the front, like 6 points on the back, and I can tell you that an IS has nowhere as strong an alpha as most clan mechs do.

the fact your weapons are lighter, mechs are generally faster too, is one advantage. I've had a direwolf dual gauss me and fire a zillion cMLAS at me and take me from a fresh torso to damn near cored out. No IS mech can do that. Sure that dire wolf is going to not be able to do that alpha again on me, but it damn well shouldn't be able to. I need a chance to fight back.

Any decent clan group will destroy regular IS players, but ever since the steam release I have seen alot of new people that just kind of do whatever, they want. They filter in, don't work together, don't push together.

The bottom line here is not so much IS vs Clan it's really about teamwork, and that is the key to really being successful here. If you have 12 mechs targeting 1 mech at a time and bringing it down you can quickly run over anything in your way. Alot of people don't seem to realize this.

Sure IS has quirks, doesn't really help too much to be honest. I've owned a timberwolf and that thing could soak up damage, and it was quicker than any IS in it's weight class.

I've seen clanners recently just bring some many LRM's it's pathetic, and that is another bad move on the clanners parts. If you have 4 or 5 mechs that are running pretty much LRM builds well then what do you expect to happen when you have only half your time do a push and the rest just sitting back and trying to LRM anything they can. It will of course be unsuccessful!