64 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

Cathy, on 14 December 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

Increase cool down, DPS instantly lowered.

DPS is where it is, because that is where P.G.I. or as some might say, Sean Lang wants it

DPS isn't the problem, ridiculously high pinpoint alphas are.

Well, stupid players are the real problem.

[Lily from animove]

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

Ghost heat did work, there aren't 14 spl novas running around with 84 point alphas. Lowering the heatscale and increasing cooling helped my 61 point laser vomit timby. Even if they cut it in half I could still alpha and would have an even higher dps. Even cut in half, the cheetah could still alpha, and with increased cooling it could actually sustain that for a good long while. I'm all for changing things up, but it's not so simple.

How often would your cheetah be able to alpha in a row and said TBR? because wiht lower heatscale you could alpha once, and have to go low dps spreaded or a quite longer waiting time.

[Mister Blastman]

Scanz, on 13 December 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

stuff

If you want to increase TTK and the skill ceiling...

1. Implement power harness overloads. Alpha two many weapons at once and you'll exceed the load capacity of the harness and the 'mech will incur a cooldown penalty for all weapons to come back online. In addition, there will be power brownouts causing various system inefficiencies and the 'mech to have a movement penalty. This penalty is cumulative. Do it a second time and cause another right after and the effect is even worse the second time.

2. Remove ALL range doubling. Gone. No more 2x range damage dropoff. This will both help SRMs and LRMs and decrease the usefulness of lasers.

3. Remove convergence. (this might not even be needed if the first one is done)

4. If still no weapon parity, buff SRM damage to 2.6 - 3.0 a missile or 2.5 and add back in splash for just unguided SRMs.

One and two alone would cause a big shift in how the game is played. The first will encourage mixed builds as certain weapon systems will have a much bigger power draw than others (lasers, gauss and ppcs). Some will have little to none such as SRMs and LRMs.

The power draw harness will have a gauge similar to the DH/DT gauge of Mechwarrior 2. Chain firing will still cause a load but not as big since it is spread out.

Also... why Gauss? So the charge mechanic can be removed and the 2x Gauss firing at a time can. Of course... fire three or four at once and it is going to be a huge penalty.

PPCs might max the power harness as three simultaneous fired (AWS has to get some love, right?), fire four, you get penalties. Fire three with other weapons... penalties. Autocannons will need to be judged accordingly.

SRMs might not need damage buffs at all either if the first is done--they should not be done all at once, start with one and two and then go from there.

[Lugh]

Far easier plan.

Remove Ghost Heat, make all Heat sinks their true TT scale, set heat cap to 30 Per TT rules and apply heatscale penalties per TT as well.

It works, has been proven by 30 years of play testing and reduces pin point alpha damage because with 30 heat you can only fire 2 erppcs or 5 clan er ML...

[Lily from animove]

Lugh, on 14 December 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Far easier plan.

Remove Ghost Heat, make all Heat sinks their true TT scale, set heat cap to 30 Per TT rules and apply heatscale penalties per TT as well.

It works, has been proven by 30 years of play testing and reduces pin point alpha damage because with 30 heat you can only fire 2 erppcs or 5 clan er ML...

+ change all wepaons back to TT heat and adjust their damage to be balanced. because TT heatvalues were kinda better suited. But some wepaons currently have gotten higher heat due to using TT dmg values. But in fact I think the other way of approaching would ahev been better: using TT heat and lowering their damage.

CERML for example, the heatchange lowered their amounts of alphas in a row no their amount of alphas at once. would they have lowered the DMG instead it would had helped more.

look at the NVA 6E an arm with CERML, with 30 heat and current value, it couldn't fire a signle arm in stock with 6 so you would use. 5.
5x7dmg with 5x6 heat. thats 30 heat and 35dmg.

If PGI would have kept old values of heat and and adjusted dmg by -1 point it would be: 36 damage and 30 heat. As you can see, it is one damage more yet it means an entire more weapon used in the process and an entire more ton to increase your alpha by just 1. quite a lot of a tradeoff.
Further if you think in "combinations" of low heat values like a DWF using 2 gauss and rest CERML, you would get:
old values 7dmg/6heat 4CERML + 2 gauss making it 28+15dmg = 43 max alpha for 26heat.
new values 6dmg 5heat 5CERML + 2 gauss thats 30+15 alpha = 45 max alpha for 27heat.

I never liked that PGI "nerfed" CERML by increasing heat by 1. It did not solved the issue of high alphas. better would have been lowering dmg by 1 and keeping the 5 heat. because this way people would had more weapons which lowered the dmg/ton efficiency. but instead people just had the same dmg/ton and slightly losered dps. Which made people even more focused on Alpha, cooldown alpha . . ..
Reward peoples facetime with a higher dps and they will use streaming weapons. Lower their dps and they go pinpoint power blows. PGI's CERML nerf did the last one. Which never solved any issues.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 December 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[adamts01]

Lily from animove, on 14 December 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

How often would your cheetah be able to alpha in a row and said TBR? because wiht lower heatscale you could alpha once, and have to go low dps spreaded or a quite longer waiting time.

We're on different pages. Are you proposing lowering the heat cap, making weapons hotter and reducing cooling? If cooling is increased at all then dps goes up. Which is exactly what happened with the latest patch.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Jae Hyun Nakamura, on 13 December 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

Isn't increase of TTK exactly what PGI did in the last patch?

Not that Ive seen

They need to double it, or triple that and maybe itll be useful

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 14 December 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

DPS isn't the problem, ridiculously high pinpoint alphas are.

Well, stupid players are the real problem.

I agree with you, but the thread topic is about D.P.S

[Widowmaker1981]

Lugh, on 14 December 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Far easier plan.

Remove Ghost Heat, make all Heat sinks their true TT scale, set heat cap to 30 Per TT rules and apply heatscale penalties per TT as well.

It works, has been proven by 30 years of play testing and reduces pin point alpha damage because with 30 heat you can only fire 2 erppcs or 5 clan er ML...

Assume you are also planning to increase the cooldown on ACs by at least 100%, or <insert obligatory (U)AC5 mech with troll face that is "OK with this" here>

[GorlockTheDestroyer]

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

I'm not totally solid on what's trying to be said still.... So by heat scale, you mean the rate at which heat is added? So make the weapons hotter?

And also, after 2 or three shots you have to cycle your weapons in the cheetah, you don't usually bug out. Increasing cooldown would make that mech more dangerous, no matter what you did with the cap. Making the weapons hotter would lower it's dps of course, but that would be a universal nerf to even he crappy mechs that barely eek out an existence with lasers as it is.

I got ya.

We have had and currently have a very high heat capacity.
Our heatsinks(poor/true) dissipate heat slowly.
This created AlphaWarrior online(along with universal hardpoints and other things). Why sacrifice your heat bar filling with heat firing many weapons groups of lasers in pairs of twos or threes. When its better to just dump everything you got into the enemy with no consequence. The no consequence stems from the high heat cap. Bolstered by how slowly heat generated by weapons group firing dissipates. Just alpha everything. Your heat bar fills to 42% alpha again 84% hit override engage and fires a small weapons group till you reach cover. AlphaWarrior Online.

What myself and many before me have advocated is a significantly lower heat capacity. Paired with current values of ghost heat/heat scale would make choosing when to alpha and important decision as opposed to the win button we have now.
The increase in heatsink dissipation is to further move away from alpha warrior online and to a more DPS based fighting style.
This is just my opinion its not set in stone and might change over time. The effects of this last patch accompanied with the above..yummy.

Edited by UncleTouchy, 14 December 2015 - 07:56 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Lugh, on 14 December 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Far easier plan.

Remove Ghost Heat, make all Heat sinks their true TT scale, set heat cap to 30 Per TT rules and apply heatscale penalties per TT as well.

It works, has been proven by 30 years of play testing and reduces pin point alpha damage because with 30 heat you can only fire 2 erppcs or 5 clan er ML...

I would not mind this either.

[Lily from animove]

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

We're on different pages. Are you proposing lowering the heat cap, making weapons hotter and reducing cooling? If cooling is increased at all then dps goes up. Which is exactly what happened with the latest patch.

if cooling is increased dps go up later, not initially, because you will alpha less, which means to keep your dps up you need facetime. and facetime means spreading damage easier. if you stream/chain fire wepaons no pinpoint alphas are able.

The DPS ar ento the issue, the issue is the way how damage applies in the current MWO. And with the initially high heattreshold the matches start with a massive damage inflation when people cna alpha 2-3 times before heat caps their damage output.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 December 2015 - 08:10 AM.

[adamts01]

Lily from animove, on 14 December 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

The DPS ar ento the issue, the issue is the way how damage applies in the current MWO. And with the initially high heattreshold the matches start with a massive damage inflation when people cna alpha 2-3 times before heat caps their damage output.

Ok, so you're talking such a drastic drop in heat capacity that an alpha is no longer viable. I'd absolutely be on board with that. It would have to be 1/3 of what it is now.

I do prefer more ghost heat or convergence issues with big weapon groups because it makes mixed weapon systems more appealing. If the heat cap was 70% lower with better dissipation I'd still load up on a single weapon and pack in heat sinks.

[Hotthedd]

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

Ok, so you're talking such a drastic drop in heat capacity that an alpha is no longer viable. I'd absolutely be on board with that. It would have to be 1/3 of what it is now.

Hard cap of 30. TT friendly.

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

I do prefer more ghost heat or convergence issues with big weapon groups because it makes mixed weapon systems more appealing.

Preach it, brother!

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

If the heat cap was 70% lower with better dissipation I'd still load up on a single weapon and pack in heat sinks.

Okay. That should still be a choice. As long as other choices are viable, I say bring it!

[Lily from animove]

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

Ok, so you're talking such a drastic drop in heat capacity that an alpha is no longer viable. I'd absolutely be on board with that. It would have to be 1/3 of what it is now.

I do prefer more ghost heat or convergence issues with big weapon groups because it makes mixed weapon systems more appealing. If the heat cap was 70% lower with better dissipation I'd still load up on a single weapon and pack in heat sinks.

"alphas" of too high damage shouldn't be possible, thats the issue. Alphas back then were "fire all the wepaons" take a Supernova with 6CERLL it just intsagibbed itself "alphaing" them.

dps is the combination of damage done and time past. People think lower heatcap and higher dissipation increases dps which is just not true at all, it only does at specific times.
With increased dissipation and lower caps the initial 2-3 alpha strikes will be gone. which means instead of a 3seconds to 120dmg by 2x alpha (which is like 40dps at this point) people may only alpha once.
And even if their overall "sustained" dps increases by 1 dps. it means one minute of enganged combat would have to pass by before the new values generate more dps than before.

Further more every time someoen reaches 0 heat he efficiently wastes damage by not "storaging" heat as a combat ressource. I may later today make some examples with a few graphs.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 December 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[adamts01]

Lily from animove, on 14 December 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

dps is the combination of damage done and time past. People think lower heatcap and higher dissipation increases dps which is just not true at all, it only does at specific times.

You can't say "not true at all" and follow it with "only does at specific times." I get what you're saying though, short term dps is limited.

I'm all in favor for these changes, I detest the peek and shoot nature of this game. I don't have the skillz to carry in fun mechs so I joined the crowd. Knocked out 1542 damage and 8 kills the other day in my cheese timby, new record for me. timberwolf OP

[Revis Volek]

Antares102, on 14 December 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

Crazy idea incoming:
How about reducing ALL damage values by 80%?
AC5 would do only 1 damage then.
And please dont give me the lore argument. Many weapons including lasers and SRM already have their damage values fidled with.

and make the ac2 do less then one? so like .20 dmg per shell? Wow, riveting.

This effectively kills every weapons in the game and sounds boring as hell to boot. It also would stop people from using lasers. Still the easiest way to apply dmg.

[Lily from animove]

adamts01, on 14 December 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

You can't say "not true at all" and follow it with "only does at specific times." I get what you're saying though, short term dps is limited.

I'm all in favor for these changes, I detest the peek and shoot nature of this game. I don't have the skillz to carry in fun mechs so I joined the crowd. Knocked out 1542 damage and 8 kills the other day in my cheese timby, new record for me. timberwolf OP

I can because it is. It all depends on how fast an encounter ends, when mechs quickly alpha each other to death because high initial dps spikes make everyone die before the other low spike, more attricious heatsystem has the higher dps it would actually have lower dps until this point of time. "Higher" dps is always depeending on the point of time you look at the battlefield.

random google picture just of graphs



the red system would clearly be a higher dps system.

The green one is high initial dps followed with lower sustained dps.
The yellow one is low initial dps and rising sustained dps.

[adamts01]

Lily from animove, on 14 December 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I can because it is. It all depends on how fast an encounter ends,

I 100% understand you. But "not true at all" means there is no truth to something. Even now you say "it all depends." I'm nit picking, I know, but I'm right.

But back to your case, most smart engagements are over quickly, and a high cap should be favorable to max dps. You're right on that account.

Edit: I also made the stupidest noob mistake ever just now, so I'm a little pissy. Went out of bounds on accident on a map I haven't played all day that was made for my build. So I'm going to argue about anything and not listen to reason for a couple minutes.

Edited by adamts01, 14 December 2015 - 10:01 AM.

[pbiggz]

Scanz, on 13 December 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

group gost penalty for
LL - from 3 to 2
ML and SL - from 6 to 5
srm from 4 to 3