74 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

kodos der henker, on 11 July 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Interesting.....

First of all I am glad to read that the game is server based (so cheating is much more difficult)
Know that from World of Tanks, "normal" cheating is impossible without hacking the server.

But a server based game needs some "tools" for players with high ping (EU players on NA server) like a serverside crosshair

They will probably go with some sort of middle ground where the client side does its normal processing, but when the server is updating it will not allow illegal movement past what is possible.

[Threedog1421]

kodos der henker, on 11 July 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Interesting.....

First of all I am glad to read that the game is server based (so cheating is much more difficult)
Know that from World of Tanks, "normal" cheating is impossible without hacking the server.

But a server based game needs some "tools" for players with high ping (EU players on NA server) like a serverside crosshair

Hate to tell you bud, your very much misinformed...

This game is still going to be classified as a FPS and it will be hacked.

Hacking has nothing to do with the servers themselves. Aimbotting/Chamming is all done client side when the hack is injected into the games exe file. Almost no way to avoid that unless they do aggressive file scanning when the game launches. Even then it's hard...

Especially since they have not announced from whati know is what anti-cheat service thy're using. And we know the only one out there currently is PunkBuster.

Unless they're going to police the servers themselves i bet it's going to be PB...

[Exilyth]

DraigUK, on 11 July 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

[22:42] <[PGI]Omid> to that end we've adopted a server-authoritative model (as opposed to the client-authoritative model CryEngine uses), which has involved many changes to the net code

If that includes line of sight calculations... best move ever.

Edited by Exilyth, 11 July 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Belorion]

I don't know that the file would have to be scanned excessively, it could check its own check-sum after start up or something. If I were being industrious I would come up with some scheme to do that, but security is boring.

Line of site is easy, it can just not transmit anything having to do with the other mechs position if LOS isn't there.

Edited by Belorion, 11 July 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[Steelo]

Eximar, on 11 July 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Now you're misunderstanding that he said he misunderstood. Clear?

better than misunderestimating

[WardenWolf]

kodos der henker, on 11 July 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

First of all I am glad to read that the game is server based (so cheating is much more difficult)
Know that from World of Tanks, "normal" cheating is impossible without hacking the server.

But a server based game needs some "tools" for players with high ping (EU players on NA server) like a serverside crosshair

Is that what the Capslock+0 command gives you in WoT? It is a different, blue cross-hair - and I've heard it called the "real" crosshair... so maybe it is the server-reported info instead of your local HUD?

[light487]

While server-side stuff, like in WoT, prevents a lot of these speed hacks and health hacks and all that kinda stuff.. there are still a lot of other hacks that would still be able to be employed.. so I'm sure this is not the only anti-cheat system in place. Aimbot for instance would allow a person to basically move at whatever speed they like and still target the critical points, like the head for instance.. where the mouse cursor is is client-side, not server.. so hopefully there will be something in place for that.

Any talk of automated anti-cheat system scares me a little.. not because I cheat.. I've never, ever cheated in a MP game, ever. In single player games occasionally but usually after I've completed the game and just want to go back in and play for fun with bloated skills and equipment (unlimited ammo etc).. the reason it scares me a little is that there are going to be false-positives in any system and trying to prove you weren't cheating AFTER you've been banned has always proved to be difficult for other people I've known that have had their accounts banned. I know for a fact they haven't cheated because I know them personally and the type of player they are etc..

So I really hope that any automated anti-cheat system also has some human element there to make sure before the ban hammer is used.

[Kalenn]

Threedog1421, on 11 July 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Hate to tell you bud, your very much misinformed...

This game is still going to be classified as a FPS and it will be hacked.

Hacking has nothing to do with the servers themselves. Aimbotting/Chamming is all done client side when the hack is injected into the games exe file. Almost no way to avoid that unless they do aggressive file scanning when the game launches. Even then it's hard...

Especially since they have not announced from whati know is what anti-cheat service thy're using. And we know the only one out there currently is PunkBuster.

Unless they're going to police the servers themselves i bet it's going to be PB...

I'm just a dumb finance guy now and my last programming course happened 8 years ago... but would think that server communication is going to likely be frame based, so you can absolutely prevent people's actions from breaking certain rules.

For example (timing numbers are plugs as I'm not up to speed on real server times... ), server keeps a register for each user, which is updated as fast as the network can handle (subject to some limit to prevent jamming the network, say once per 10ms)... this register is then read by the server every server "frame" (say every 20ms or ~50Hz) - server then calculates movement, adjusted torso position, hitboxes, damage etc. for that frame, subject to rules like (for example, McMech torso may not twist >5 degrees in one frame).

Calculated frame is then pushed back to client and over-rides any local position data - thus a hacked movement and local 'bad' hits are ignored and replaced with the server frame. A non-cheater would see nothing untoward, but a cheater would get a screen that's twitching all over the place as their local position tries to reconcile with the un-cheated server-side... Local client then focuses mostly on rendering and efficient communication with the server. You could of course set tolerances around this to account for connections / systems that posted on different timings etc.

To be fair, this would not prevent something like the auto-aim scripting example mentioned above where the script helps seek a target within the rules, but would at least limit the number of SpeedAtlas incidents.

Someone who's written netcode more recently can feel free to abuse my logic above...

[light487]

Yer.. I can't remember which game I read it in but essentially they were saying that they obviously keep a log of everyone's stats in a big database.. and reports are run on that database.. anyone who has suddenly got a lot more skills or c-bills a lot faster than even the above average players gets flagged. That account is then monitored a lot closer. So they don't actually have auto-bans but they have system in place to detect the consequences of cheating, as in increased stats and in-game finances etc.

[Davion5150]

So instead of converting CryEngine from client-authoritative to server authoritative, couldn't they have used an engine that was server authoritative in the first place? That way they wouldn't have to convert/mod the engine.

[Scar]

Davion5150, on 11 July 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

So instead of converting CryEngine from client-authoritative to server authoritative, couldn't they have used an engine that was server authoritative in the first place? That way they wouldn't have to convert/mod the engine.

Most of such an engines are for MMO(i mean true MMO - with the open world) - and they're ugly like a ****.

Edited by Scar, 11 July 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[ChargerIIC]

Davion5150, on 11 July 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

So instead of converting CryEngine from client-authoritative to server authoritative, couldn't they have used an engine that was server authoritative in the first place? That way they wouldn't have to convert/mod the engine.

Which one would you recommend?

[Nih]

I can vouch for WoT, which uses tons of server side checks for EVERYTHING, and I personally, have never seen a "hack", nor has anyone I know.

Not to be confused with tank skins, who some people get custom tank skins to allow them to better see weak spots in armor and ammo rack locations and such, but this is actually ok'd behavior, since it doesn't provide any unfair advantage a little personal knowledge doesn't even up. Plus it's hard to enforce otherwise. That's not considered a "hack", rather, just a allowed modification.

So yea, heavy server side authentication, although it certainly slows the pace of the game down, is an amazing tool to combat all forms of hacks. If it's server side authenticated, you really can't mess with it.

Edited by Nih, 11 July 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

God please no aimbots, don't need to see a match where one mech runs around and kills the entire eneym team with cockpit shots. I remember playing a match in Modern Warfare 2 where someone aimbotted and killed about 20 people in a few seconds so they could call in a nuke. Ugh, the pain of playing in a hacked game.

[Thradok]

I for one am appalled at this confirmation. Cheating is a long standing tradition among computer gamers, and to discriminate against the cheating population in this manner leaves me shocked. Fankly, I am considering withdrawing my planned financial support for this game, requesting my founder's status be stricken, and my money returned. This stand for higher gameplay standards leaves me sickened. Rally, my cheating bretheren, turn this ship around before it is too late!


(But seriously, good stuff. Catch ALL the cheaters!)

[Glythe]

Threedog1421, on 11 July 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

This game is still going to be classified as a FPS and it will be hacked.

Hacking has nothing to do with the servers themselves. Aimbotting/Chamming is all done client side when the hack is injected into the games exe file. Almost no way to avoid that unless they do aggressive file scanning when the game launches. Even then it's hard...

Actually it's pretty easy to keep people from cheating in an online environment if the conditions are built right. Might I steer you over to WoT? There has been no hacking incident to my knowledge since the game has been around. There was a mod that allowed you to change part of the game that was at the time client side and was later moved server side so that it could not be modified.

This isn't your average fps game where you hold all the files locally. We will probably have the images of files and the rest will be on the server. Imagine say you bring an Atlas to the game and try to move at the speed of a Jenner with some hack. If you try to get your Atlas to go 90 kph the server is going to say no that's not allowed you are an Atlas this is how fast you move with that engine. While you are running the game your client is constantly playing mother may I with the server.

The average fps isn't built around trying to stop cheating because the files aren't locked away on the server's side. I have a feeling anything you could want to tinker with for MWO will be out of your reach unless you manage to hack the specific game server hosting your game.

[Steelo]

Thradok, on 11 July 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

I for one am appalled at this confirmation. Cheating is a long standing tradition among computer gamers, and to discriminate against the cheating population in this manner leaves me shocked. Fankly, I am considering withdrawing my planned financial support for this game, requesting my founder's status be stricken, and my money returned. This stand for higher gameplay standards leaves me sickened. Rally, my cheating bretheren, turn this ship around before it is too late!


(But seriously, good stuff. Catch ALL the cheaters!)

oh you

[Skadi]

Of course they stand against cheating, who do you think they are, EA?

[Hellya]

I don't think it is that hard really. Take WoT, they have done a bang up job of removing the hack from online games.

[Twisted Power]

There will always be cheaters as long as they can be caught and removed I don't care. My account wont be banned and all my stuff lost.