413 replies to this topic

[Pinkamena Pie]

I would go for close to full customization, but with consequences.

Basically...

You start off by buying a stock mech or varient. Taking the CPLT as an example, I buy a CPLT-C1. It shows as a CPLT-C1.

You can buy refit kits to convert a mech you own to a given varient. Say I buy a CPLT-K2 refit, it will convert my CPLT to be a CPLT-K2. It shows as a CPLT-K2.

Once you have the varient that you're using as a basis, you can start to customise it. These customisations will not be as efficient as if the mech/refit was built around the new layout however, so any parts fitted through such a process will be slightly less effective.
Say I want to strip all the weapons other than the PPCs from my CPLT-K2, and use the weight to add jump capability, I am adding 4 jury-rigged jump jets. These will be slightly less effective than the 4 jump jets that the CPLT-C1 has as standard. This mech will show as a "CPLT-K2?", showing opponents what the basis of the mech is, but indicating that it's different from normal in some way.

Some ideas for drawbacks for jury-rigged parts:
- Weapons: Slower recycle times and/or increased heat output per shot.
- Armour: Less points of armour per ton.
- Heat sinks: Less heat dissipated per heatsink.
- Jump jets: Less thrust and/or higher heat output.

The drawbacks should be balanced so that they're severe enough to stop cheesemechs from dominating, whilst mild enough that minor modifications aren't noticably penalised.


Result:
- Players who want to be able to tinker with mech layout can do so to their heart's content.
- Players who just want to give a mech their own personal touch can do so without any significant penalties.
- Canon (and near-canon) mechs stay dominant due to being the most effecient use of hardware.

The only players who really get penalised by such a system are the minmaxers who want to completely rebuild a mech from scratch, and squeeze out every last percent of performance. (Note that players who want to do complete rebuilds for fun can still do so, and probably aren't going to be quite so worried about the loss of a few percent of effectiveness if it gives them the mech they want.)

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Just for those to read that didn't look back a few pages.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Well, at least we know we are getting a Mechlab.

[MaddMaxx]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 07 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Well, at least we know we are getting a Mechlab.

Well it was obvious we would need somewhere to install our Modules and paint up our rides. lol

[Opus]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 05 December 2011 - 07:37 AM, said:

didnt really take to the MW4 style lab my self, i liked the idea of fixed locations for battlemechs but everything was a battlemech. i would rather have the AT1-BT style lab, which worked well imo. heres two examples,

KEY:-

Red outline - Energy based weapons

Green outline - Missle based weapons

Yellow Outline - Balistic based weapons

Blue outline - Omni Weapons Pod

Orange Highlight - fixed crtical item /rating /value

ok, the battlemech probably isnt the best example, but should convey what iam trying to get at



should be easy to follow, should also show the limitations of the Omni Mechs

Wow, that brings back memories......

but either that system in canon, or MW4 variant keep things simple, and yet have enough to keep you wondering what the other guys has up his sleeves to make the battle interesting..

nobody wants FrankenMechs

[DragonClaw]

Brakkyn, on 05 December 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Aiden Pryde's Mad Cat had jump jets. It's canon, but does not mean a Mad Cat should be allowed to simply strap on jump jets. It was limited to Aiden Pryde, because he was a major player in storylines. It's a form of artistic license that should NOT be included and made into something more common. The same goes for any heroic character in BattleTech/MechWarrior who had a personalized/customized 'Mech (Natasha Kerensky, Victor Davion, etc).

I can't really stomach the idea of somebody being given, say, a Commando as a starting 'Mech, removing all the default weapons and equipment, and smacking on six medium lasers "because they can". People can come up with some powerful custom designs, but it always ends up as a game of min/maxing.

the timberwolf you that you chose is an omnie mech so you can put jjs or what ever on it.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@ Opus, the trouble is that is exactly what a lot of people wan't to do. They want the MW3 mechlab where you can create a totally new mech in a few minutes. Others want the hardpoint system of MW4. There are a number of people who have posted that such labs are 50% of the game.They seem to think that there will be no problem with balance or lack of mrch individuality. Given that this is a re-boot I think that we will have a totally different system, unlike anything we have seen before. With luck we only have to wait until next month to find out

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@DragonClaw. I thought that normally changes to OmniMech's were limited to the weapon pods and that things like engine armour JJ etc remained inchanged?

[Kael Tropheus]

I voted the mechwarrior 4 version although i want it more limited than that. Using a clan omnimech as an example is a bad example as refitting and changing out weapons is a huge part of the clan tech advantage that the Inner Sphere simple doesnt have. I would like the mech lab to perhaps load new ammo, new paint schemes, repairs, and new modules, or even upgrade a mech chassis to a different varient provided the parts are available.

What I definately do not want to see is wholesale weapons exchanges. That is not Battletech. That is a clan advantage(and even that has limits) and should always remain that way until the IS starts to produce its own omni-mechs(late 3050s I think).

[Strum Wealh]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 08 February 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

@DragonClaw. I thought that normally changes to OmniMech's were limited to the weapon pods and that things like engine armour JJ etc remained inchanged?

From TechManual:

Quote

Pg. 44
OmniMechs - BattleMechs designed for rapid reconfiguration between missions - are available to Clan and Inner Sphere technology bases. OmniMechs use the same construction rules featured here, but when an Omni is made, the designer must first establish its base configuration. This base configuration includes the OmniMech’s chassis, engine, gyro, cockpit systems, armor, special myomer or speed enhancements and—if desired—any additional weapons and heat sinks “hardwired” into its design, leaving the remaining weight and space open to pods that can mix and match additional weapons and other components. “Fixed” equipment must be allocated to the Critical Hit Table per normal rules and may not vary between alternative configurations of the OmniMech. Also, a base OmniMech configuration is never considered a finished BattleMech and is generally not legal for standard rules play (as such units are essentially open frames of empty pods). Only the completed primary and alternate configurations of an OmniMech (which must always comply with the rules for constructing standard BattleMechs) are considered legal for standard rules game play.

-----

Pgs. 47-57
OmniMechs: The type of internal structure and placement of any critical slots required must be determined upon the design of the base configuration. All complete primary and alternate configurations thereafter must use the same arrangement of internal structure critical slots.

OmniMechs: The engine type, rating and placement of its critical slots must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in that OmniMech’s completed primary or alternate configurations.

OmniMechs: The gyro type, weight and placement of its critical slots must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in the completed primary or alternate configurations of that OmniMech.

OmniMechs: The number, type and placement of jump jets need not be determined as part of an OmniMech’s base configuration, and so do not need to be established at this stage if the designer wishes to leave jump capability as an option.
If any jump jets are established for a base configuration at this stage, they are considered permanent and may not be altered in that OmniMech’s completed primary or alternate configurations. However, additional jump jets may be placed on an alternate configuration if the base configuration does not carry the maximum possible jets for its type.

OmniMechs: The cockpit type and placement of its critical slots must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in that OmniMech’s completed primary or alternate configurations.

OmniMechs: The type, weight and placement of critical slots for MASC and Triple-Strength Myomer must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in that OmniMech’s completed primary or alternate configurations. Unlike jump jets, neither MASC nor Triple-Strength Myomer may be “pod-mounted,” so an OmniMech may not feature MASC or TSM capabilities on an alternate configuration unless the base configuration is so equipped.

OmniMechs: A Clan or Inner Sphere OmniMech may add more heat sinks at this stage, or - at the designer’s option - may stick with the 10 free sinks already provided by the fusion engine. As heat sinks may be mounted in Omni-pods just like other weapons and equipment, any additional sinks can easily be left to alternate configurations.
However, said configurations must always use the same heat sink type as that used by the base chassis. In addition, all heat sinks added onto later configurations must be mounted as pods and thus occupy critical space on the OmniMech’s record sheet (even if the Engine Rating would otherwise allow some of them to be “critical-free”). It is therefore generally more efficient (and well advised) for OmniMechs to incorporate their maximum complement of “critical-free” heat sinks into their base designs.

OmniMechs: The type, weight, number of points and critical slots (if any) required for an OmniMech’s armor must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in the completed primary or alternate configurations.

OmniMechs: Though it is unusual, weapons and equipment may be established as fixed components of an OmniMech’s base configuration just like heat sinks and jump jets. In such cases, these “fixed” items must be mounted and placed on the Critical Hits Table before completion of the base configuration, and may not be altered in the completed primary or alternate configurations.
On biped OmniMechs, the lower arm and hand actuators are always considered to be pod-mounted, and may be removed to provide additional slots for weapons and other equipment.
If the configuration desired mounts any kind or size of Gauss rifle, autocannon or PPC in a given arm, however, the lower arm and hand actuators in that arm must be removed first.

So, by BT rules/canon: an individual OmniMech, once built, cannot alter its internal structure (including material type and allocation of internal space), engine (including type and allocation of internal space), gyro (including type and allocation of internal space), cockpit (including type and allocation of internal space), myomer system (including type and allocation of internal space), or armor (including material type, overall amount of armor, allocation of internal space, or allocation of armor across the 'Mech's surface).

However, building a new individual OmniMech of the same chassis type could be one way around that - albeit, a very, very expensive way of doing so.
("Want more armor or a bigger engine on that Summoner? We can't add more armor or a bigger engine to your current Summoner, but you can get those changes by building a second Summoner with the desired modifications... for a price, of course...")

Jump jets, heat sinks (number but not type), hand and lower-arm actuators, and weapons and additional equipment (other than those items hard-wired into the 'Mech as "fixed equipment") are, canonically, fair game for quick and low-cost swapping-in/out.

By contrast, "standard" (non-OmniTech) BattleMechs could not have their loadouts/configurations changed quickly or cheaply (twas a slow and expensive process, with the time and monetary costs dependent on how many and what type of modifications one wanted to perform and the skill level and resources of one's technicians), but were traditionally considered not subject to most of the same "fixed equipment" restrictions as OmniMechs.

Is this the direction MWO should go?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 08 February 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[DragonClaw]

@strum thanks for proving the point on omniemechs. most players dont understand it.

Edited by DragonClaw, 08 February 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

DragonClaw, on 08 February 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

@strum thanks for proving the point on omniemechs. most players dont understand it.

Actually, most players are simply to lazy to look it up for themselves and as such Sturm has to do it. Bless his little heart.

[Joanna Conners]

If we're too restrictive of customization it could affect how wide of a market the game reaches. Now, I don't want to see "frankenmechs" either, but I think a MW2 would be great.

[Azalie]

I feel it should be more of the MW2 style. That's the style I felt most went in line with the books. A centurion could very well have had it's autocannon stripped from it's arm and have had it replaced with two large pulse lasers. Likewise the Dire Wolf's primary varient could drop it's pulse laser arm and have it replaced with an additional gauss rifle with some tonnage to spare for whatever.

The appearance of these mechs should reflect their loadouts. Having a flamer at the end of an arm would look vastly different than a gauss rifle or an er ppc. I am of the school that a mech chassis is just that. A centurion chassis is the foundation of the mech. You cannot make major changes to the chassis, but swapping out arms and weapons is akin to the customization some people do to their cars. Just take a look at the Centurion Kai Allard-Liao ran around with for most of his career.

Mechs where a certain weapon actually seems to make up part of their chassis may not apply...though I don't know of any offhand. Even the venerable Hunchback has a couple variants with LRMs instead of the token autocannon.

[Aegis Kleais]

I like MW4's style of hardpoints, where certain body locations can only fit certain weapon classes. Though it would be even better if depending on the actual weapon, you'd see a physical change on the model.

For example, in MW4, Each External "Ear" in the Timber Wolf cold hold ONLY Projectile Class weapons, up to 3 slots worth. This means as long as a weapon is projectile, you could have 3x1 slot items, 1x2 + 1x1 slot items or 1x3 slot item. But physically in the game, the Mech didn't look different (I'd like to see that change).

That way, you could know that "If I want to hurt a Timber Wolf's projectile abilities, I can attack those specific spots." It brings a tactical level to the game and your knowledge of the enemy Mech's loadout configuration.

If it was just a series of space, the Mech could have ballistic or energy weapons put there, which turns the Mech into more of a weapons boat (ie, just fill up your spare tonnage with whatever weapons you can). This blurs the role the chassis is capable of and you would just begin to see Mech abilities by their available tonnage rather than configuration.

[Durant Carlyle]

Azalie, on 08 February 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

The appearance of these mechs should reflect their loadouts. Having a flamer at the end of an arm would look vastly different than a gauss rifle or an er ppc. I am of the school that a mech chassis is just that. A centurion chassis is the foundation of the mech. You cannot make major changes to the chassis, but swapping out arms and weapons is akin to the customization some people do to their cars. Just take a look at the Centurion Kai Allard-Liao ran around with for most of his career.

Did you know you just made more of a point against customization than you did for customization?

It's exactly like customizing cars. Expensive, time-consuming, and only an extremely small percentage of drivers do it. Those that do often spend more on the customizations than the original value of the car, and the modifications often take months or years to complete. We're not talking about slapping on a new high-flow air filter or cold-air intake tube. We're talking widening the body, narrowing the rear axle, and crafting new wheel wells, so that you can put some drag slicks on that Pinto of yours. Not to mention the mods you're going to have to do to the front end to shoehorn a blown big-block engine in there. Plus adding a roll cage, a safety seat, and five-point harness.

99.9% of MechWarriors piloting a Centurion are riding one of the official variants or have had an official field upgrade package installed. Yen-Lo-Wang is an exception rather than the rule, as are most activities on Solaris VII. The arms and legs of a 'Mech are part of its chassis, and you shouldn't be able to switch them out willy-nilly.

[Aegis Kleais]

Customization is, IMO, a critical aspect to the enjoyment of this game.

If I know I can only roll in one of the official variants, we've in essence limited the pilots's ability to tweak the Mech to their own personal strengths and instead have to go with a "lowest common denominator" variant which, chances are, may help them in some areas but hurt them in others.

Timber Wolf Prime...2 LRM20, 2 ERLL, 2 ERML, 1 MPL and 2 MG. If I want to drop the MG and MPL in favor of putting more armor on it, I can't. If I wanted to keep the LRM20's but drop the laser weaponry and instead bring bigger ballistics, I can't. Another variant may have the ballistics I want, but it comes with weaker LRM10's, which I didn't want to give up. Variants are good starter kits, but I really feel that we need the ability to create our own loadouts; yeah it might be more expensive in the end, but I'm willing to put more money down on the ability to do so.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@Aegis, your not the only one to say that. On the other hand how do you balance play? How do you avoid mechs merely being a chassis of a certain weight? This is going to be the first MW game that has been designed purely for PvP. Mechlab didn't matter previously because it was all about the PvE, with multiplayer tacked on. North America was one of the few places where you could easily play MW online in previous titles. If their Mechlab is very limited does this mean you will not play? I'm quite sure that what is intended won't be perfect for a number of people. Like it or not it is going to be the only chance we have of playing for while at least.

[Kasiagora]

I know that in the technical readouts mechs are usually limited to the number of weapons and the types of weapons that they can have due to the limited capacity of the mech's computers to compensate for changes. I like this in the early days of battletech, it gives the mech a much more analogue feel to me. Omni mechs' weapons pods are one of their big advantages, but also the early tech readouts will go back on themselves by having variants of IS mechs that have an outrageously different setup and often times they'll say it suffers from this. I'm not expecting MW4 style guidelines and if you leave those guidelines then you'll start adding to your weapon-convergence and lock-on times (although that might not be a bad idea).
I chose the MW2 style because the few times I played MW4 I'd want to make a mech they didn't have in game and couldn't. Just because the games doesn't have the Marauder, for example, doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to build something comparable in my opinion. Problem of course with a MW2 setup is that it allows for med. laser/mg/min-max boating. Even so, I have to stick to my guns. A variety of them in fact. In a MW2 style mechlab.

[Aegis Kleais]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 08 February 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

@Aegis, your not the only one to say that. On the other hand how do you balance play? How do you avoid mechs merely being a chassis of a certain weight? This is going to be the first MW game that has been designed purely for PvP. Mechlab didn't matter previously because it was all about the PvE, with multiplayer tacked on. North America was one of the few places where you could easily play MW online in previous titles. If their Mechlab is very limited does this mean you will not play? I'm quite sure that what is intended won't be perfect for a number of people. Like it or not it is going to be the only chance we have of playing for while at least.

Hardpoints. A certain Mech might only have a propensity for Ballistics and Projectiles. Another might have a propensity at the same weight class for larger ballistics, but not as large projectiles. Add in that some chassis may have different torso twists, speeds, electronics, components support, and you begin to add value to particular chassis vs seeing them as a universal weapons platform.

A Mech Lab is as important in PvP as it is in PvE. It's about the ability to customize and tweak a design down to what the pilot feels is what is most suited to their skills, abilities and role.

I agree that we are not going to please everyone; it's simply not a possibility. But like cosmetic items (which are wildly popular), the reason why they are, in part, is because you can customize them (give them a title, color, etc.)

The downside to that is that if it allows too much customization, even aesthetics can begin to deteriorate the quality (visually) of the game itself. There's a fine balance that needs to be struck.