413 replies to this topic

[Outlaw2]

TheRulesLawyer, on 17 February 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

I understand the team aspect of it. However if you don't know that there is aero ahead of time, bringing an aero specific mech means you might be fighting at a disadvantage. Same with dealing with infantry. Also you aren't supposed to have an infinite hanger full of special purpose mechs to chose from. You're thinking on a strictly tactical level and assuming you have intel and unlimited resources. If you think operationally and strategically the mixed loadouts make more sense.

You take into consideration the current metagame and plan accordingly. If say taking 2 Aeros per match is popular and effective, then taking a mech boating say AC2s (pretend they are good against Aero in game) wouldn't be a bad thing. If the team didn't take Aeros, first , they probably don't have the most effective team layout in our made up meta game ...and second those AC2s are still going to do damage.

However the biggest reason not to take mixed loadouts is definitely how inefficient and clumsy they are. Not only do you have contend with different ranges, but different ways of targeting and firing. Its almost always better to just eat whatever disadvantage boating brings in order to reap the advantages it does bring.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 17 February 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

You're still thinking strictly on a tactical level. Expand your universe a little to a living breathing world and it'll make sense.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Unfortunately the games are played on a tactical level where there will be only mechs. I'm not sure that the threat of an airstrike being called by the opposing commander would make it worthwhile to include an anti air mech, which may not be in a position to deal with the strike. There isn't any such mech included yet. i know the Blackjack was in one of the recent Facebook polls.

[Uncle Totty]

MW2/3 for Omnimechs.

MW4 for Battlemechs.

[Sug]

How does MW:LL handle customization?

[Lorcan Lladd]

=Outlaw=, on 17 February 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

However the biggest reason not to take mixed loadouts is definitely how inefficient and clumsy they are. Not only do you have contend with different ranges, but different ways of targeting and firing. Its almost always better to just eat whatever disadvantage boating brings in order to reap the advantages it does bring.

I don't know, I used to struggle with mixed loadouts, at least in MechWarrior 4, for sure; until I remapped my controls, that is.
Since then I've just kept them that way and I've mapped a key to fire each pre-programmed firing chain, missiles, lasers, whatever, and it works just fine, in fact, better than my old boat configurations.

Say, I'll get lock onto a Nightwind for my LRMs, then I'll fire them off, quickly pick a new target, fire my PPC, then get lock onto another unit, fire off the LRMs again, then fire a rack of Machine Guns or ACs - you get the idea - all along maintaining high damage per second with an almost continuous rate of fire with no loss of accuracy.

Sure you could just boat Large Pulse Lasers, for example, but what of the heat?
What of the recycle times, during which you will deal no damage?
What about engaging multiple enemies?
Or enemies beyond your maximum firing range?

What I do, in a mixed configuration, is to min-max everything - heat, damage, recycle times, ammunition - to make sure I can engage a number of enemies at any range, simultaneously.
I guess we're looking at this differently; I don't think the different weapon types are things to be contested with at all, I think they're complementary to each other.

Oh, and for one thing, the reason why you can just swarm Clan 'Mechs is because their loadouts are more 'effective', based on boating - they're quite clumsly when engaging multiple targets, though, it's true, they fare great in duels.

[Micheal Hessek]

I fill that the method of customization should be closer to the MW4 method. My hope is that at first the Mech's will be limited to Faction variants only (like the Warhammer 6D). But, I would like to see the the more experience that is recieved the more options are availible to change swap weapons of similar nature (such as medium laser for ER medium laser when available, but personally I think the standard medium laser is the best all around weapon).
Also certain specialized/custom Mech's for notable players.

Certain variants listed in cannon material such as TRO 3025 as being generally available such as the Hunchback variants, especially the P variant with all those medium lasers and LRM's and the "Swayback" with SRM's it allows enough of a variety to keep the play interesting.

It would be a great option to allow a player that had extensive damage to their Mech to recieve an option for house/faction or generally availalbe conversions with recognized repair facilities.

Just my two Bill's worth.

[Outlaw2]

TheRulesLawyer, on 17 February 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

You're still thinking strictly on a tactical level. Expand your universe a little to a living breathing world and it'll make sense.

You need to explain what you mean by "living breathing world"...

Sug, on 18 February 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

How does MW:LL handle customization?

They don't. They simply have no customization, no mechlab. Its clear the devs are hesitating introducing it because it will muck up balance. No amount of aero or BA can magically fix the issues the mechlab brings with boating.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 18 February 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Outlaw2]

Lorcan Lladd, on 18 February 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I don't know, I used to struggle with mixed loadouts, at least in MechWarrior 4, for sure; until I remapped my controls, that is.
Since then I've just kept them that way and I've mapped a key to fire each pre-programmed firing chain, missiles, lasers, whatever, and it works just fine, in fact, better than my old boat configurations.

Say, I'll get lock onto a Nightwind for my LRMs, then I'll fire them off, quickly pick a new target, fire my PPC, then get lock onto another unit, fire off the LRMs again, then fire a rack of Machine Guns or ACs - you get the idea - all along maintaining high damage per second with an almost continuous rate of fire with no loss of accuracy.

Sure you could just boat Large Pulse Lasers, for example, but what of the heat?
What of the recycle times, during which you will deal no damage?
What about engaging multiple enemies?
Or enemies beyond your maximum firing range?

What I do, in a mixed configuration, is to min-max everything - heat, damage, recycle times, ammunition - to make sure I can engage a number of enemies at any range, simultaneously.
I guess we're looking at this differently; I don't think the different weapon types are things to be contested with at all, I think they're complementary to each other.

Oh, and for one thing, the reason why you can just swarm Clan 'Mechs is because their loadouts are more 'effective', based on boating - they're quite clumsly when engaging multiple targets, though, it's true, they fare great in duels.

Im not sure how long you played MW4 or at what level, but I'ved played it competitively for 8 years. Mixed loadouts were the rarity, the exception by far. The lrm switching you mentioned is exactly the clumsiness im talking about it. Sure you could get good at constantly readjusting your aim, but against good pilots/teams those seconds and even fractions of a second you spend fumbling around can determine win or lose.

. The few truly mixed loadouts I ever took, were boats of a certain weapon plus er lasers....because er lasers were the most OP weapon in the game (especially in the league environment I played in)....they were always a good weapon to take if you had the space and tonnage..and nothing else to do with it. This had a lot to do with MW4's restrictive hardpoint system. Had the mech allowed for more boating of a single weapon, I would have done so

Edited by =Outlaw=, 18 February 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Chinook]

Since a mechlab inherently encourages boating and while CoF has the potential to address laser boats. It seems like there will be an inadequate way for PGI to limit them through game mechanics. Also I think the majority can agree that boating takes out a large degree of any skill that may exist. I think the online play for MW4 demonstrated all of this perfectly as well as highlighting other issues.

• The only way I can think of currently to implement a mech lab and keep any semblance of balance would be to limit the number of weapons a mech can have. For example no mech can have more then 14weapons, or something along those lines. 14 is an arbitrary number.

• Another way to try to limit boating is to design a system that limits the number of lasers that can be fire with a single weapons config. While it's obviously not great lore it could be explained as a massive power draw on the engine. Since it can only create so much energy you cant just *ZAP* 14 ER med lasers all hit the same panel. While it still doesn't solve the issue of boating it atleast breaks the firing phase up into multiple shots.

Boating is toxic. People boat with customization it is what happens because it is a min/maxing approach. There already exist mechs designed for long range fire support that are boats. There is no need to allow players to make even more boats.


Canon boats

• ComandoIIC2 - srm boat
  
• Bane- Ultra AC2 boat
  
• Bane2 - Ultra AC10s
  
• Bane3 - LRM boat
  
• Linebacker D- srm boat
  
• Arctic Wolf - srm boat

Those are just boats off the top of my head. Boating eliminates combat choices and significantly simplifies the game. If a Bane3 launches all 100+ LRMs then it is just going to hang out and wait till all of the weapons have recycled. This game play is boring in comparison to a mech that has to make trade-offs between closing distance or staying at long range. Suddenly with these trade offs you start to have much more tactical movement. you have to decide if closing range benefits you or the opponent and other choices. If everyone was sitting around in Bane 3's it would become a camp fest because it would only take 2-3 alphas to kill someone.



I am sad that I won't get to play in a custom mech I enjoy but because people are unable to resist the urge and ease of boating a mechlab just isn't a viable option if you want PGI to maintain balance. Also boating and range optimization are different I think. easy example would be the Ryoken -B
1x Ultra AC20
5x ER medium lasers

The mech specializes in short-medium range combat. There is no 1 button win solution as there was for many mechs in MW4.

Edit: I also think boating really only becomes an issue with the heavier mechs that can maximize on it. So no mechlab at all. Unless PGI are geniuses at fixing all the issues.

Edited by Chinook, 18 February 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Outlaw2]

Chinook, on 18 February 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Since a mechlab inherently encourages boating and while CoF has the potential to address laser boats. It seems like there will be an inadequate way for PGI to limit them through game mechanics. Also I think the majority can agree that boating takes out a large degree of any skill that may exist.

Can't agree with either of these.

CoF won't stop boating.
It might mitigate the advantages of alpha strikes and get rid of pin point accuracy though (<--not sure thats necessarily a good thing).

The main reason I'm against boating is because it trivialities the majority of the game's content and limits diversity. Don't confuse gameplay which you don't like with gameplay that requires little skill. Its not the same thing...common mistake on the internets

Regardless of whatever weapon cap you implement, people will just boat whatever is most effective up to that cap. Chain firing the same weapon type (or very similar) is still better than chain firing weapons with very different firing characteristics and ranges.

Boating and range optimization are both almost the same thing. A uac20 plus 5 ER meds is not exactly a mixed loadout. They have similar range, similar firing mechanism and at that range travel time of the uac20 is almost an non-issue. Different recycle time is the main thing you have to contend with. But like you said, they are both used for the same role (infighting). Mech is boating for a specialized role essentially...which is the smart thing to do.

Believe me, I WANT a mechlab and I WANT customization. I just don't want people to continue using naivee and idealistic ideas which will only lead to yet another broken mechlab.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 18 February 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[BeforeLife]

I would like to see a mix of the both, like have your mech limeted with crits and whatnot, but have hardpoints like MW4, thatway 20ton mechs cant go almost nothing and have a AC20 or another similer weapon. It will also help prevent boating and put more ephisise on equipment. And if you use too many crits in one place your hardpoints will end up becoming smaller.

Edited by BeforeLife, 18 February 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[Chinook]

I am not a big advocate for CoF actually. I just mentioned it because it used to be a big thing on the forums. Anything that adds randomness to aiming is a bad thing in my opinion. Aiming may have been too easy in MW4 but the game was designed to sell and make money not for an online competitive environment.

Depending how busy/what PGi has planned if they ran sanctioned tournaments the grand prize could be a custom mech but of course PGi would have to ok it. Then of course don't allow custom mechs in tournaments/competitions. That would allow players the chance to obtain custom mechs but keep them rare and allocate them more to a bragging rights place then anything else which is frankly where they belong.

[Fluffinator]

I see a lot of people taking about if you should be able to change the weapons etc on your mech to some layout you like better providing it will fit both weight and size wise. The one thing that i feel most people are missing in the discussion...Is that the most important things for this game are that it's fun and keeps you entertained.

Lets say the game releases with 5 mechs in each weight class. If you have no way to change any of the weapons it is very very likely that none if them will fit your play style perfectly. If you are lucky 1-2 might be close enough that you can use them effectively without being forced to play the way that mech was made to be played.

The 2nd part of this is...ever played DnD on paper? Half the fun was developing your character, building it your way, and seeing the results of your efforts and design in action. This is also part of what makes many of the mech warrior games so great. If you take away peoples ability to customize, that part of the fun and enjoyment goes out the door with it. Not to mention getting it just the way you want it, can be one of the few enjoyable time sinks in a game.

So for those that want almost no ability to customize your mech (within reason) because they worry someone will have a great build that you don't like...is your fear that they will have a powerful build that they enjoy... really worth taking away everyone's chance to enjoy making and customizing their own mech? If 1 build is the best of them all...balance the weapons better...make x hit a little harder etc

Lastly with mech lore...most great pilots had their own build or variant that they made famous. I don't want to be a grunt who the techs laugh and say you will take this mech and like it...I want to be that hero who they respect so much they will try hard to make your mech as close to what you ask for as they are able to do within what is possible.

[Mason Grimm]

While I see the validity of this post I am going to merge it with "True Customizations or Not" cause it's the same thing with different words in the title.

[EDMW CSN]

Fluffinator, on 18 February 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

I see a lot of people taking about if you should be able to change the weapons etc on your mech to some layout you like better providing it will fit both weight and size wise. The one thing that i feel most people are missing in the discussion...Is that the most important things for this game are that it's fun and keeps you entertained.

Lets say the game releases with 5 mechs in each weight class. If you have no way to change any of the weapons it is very very likely that none if them will fit your play style perfectly. If you are lucky 1-2 might be close enough that you can use them effectively without being forced to play the way that mech was made to be played.

The 2nd part of this is...ever played DnD on paper? Half the fun was developing your character, building it your way, and seeing the results of your efforts and design in action. This is also part of what makes many of the mech warrior games so great. If you take away peoples ability to customize, that part of the fun and enjoyment goes out the door with it. Not to mention getting it just the way you want it, can be one of the few enjoyable time sinks in a game.

So for those that want almost no ability to customize your mech (within reason) because they worry someone will have a great build that you don't like...is your fear that they will have a powerful build that they enjoy... really worth taking away everyone's chance to enjoy making and customizing their own mech? If 1 build is the best of them all...balance the weapons better...make x hit a little harder etc

Lastly with mech lore...most great pilots had their own build or variant that they made famous. I don't want to be a grunt who the techs laugh and say you will take this mech and like it...I want to be that hero who they respect so much they will try hard to make your mech as close to what you ask for as they are able to do within what is possible.

Except you are really a grunt if you join the Feddies and they auto-assign you to something like the Robinson Draconis March Militia or the Coventry Province Militia.

Imo, no player should be able to enlist to "premier units" like the 1st Davion Guards, Sword of Light, Genyosha, 2nd Donegal or the 4th Skye Rangers etc. Or merc commands like GDL, WD, KH etc. At least for a start.


Modules as per Devs have indicated though you can change out modules on mech so that is some sort of customization.

But I think the system might be closer to MW2 + MW4 hybrid. You are bound by criticals AND the hardpoint of the previous weapon. For example for the Atlas to switch between an AC-20 or Gauss rifle is trivial since they are almost of same tonnage and weapon type.

For it to switch to another LRM-20 launcher might be a different story though.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 18 February 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[Chinook]

Fluffinator, on 18 February 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

The 2nd part of this is...ever played DnD on paper? Half the fun was developing your character, building it your way, and seeing the results of your efforts and design in action. This is also part of what makes many of the mech warrior games so great. If you take away peoples ability to customize, that part of the fun and enjoyment goes out the door with it. Not to mention getting it just the way you want it, can be one of the few enjoyable time sinks in a game.

D&D on paper isn't really a good example because there a bazillion ways to break the game to suit your playstyle and not breaking the game relied upon you having some self restraint sometimes and also a GM who was knowledgeable about the rules system to stop that from taking place. Which basically comes down to player restraint and restrictions. A large amount of people are saying no because there is no way to stop 1 click to win boating.

Fluffinator, on 18 February 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

So for those that want almost no ability to customize your mech (within reason) because they worry someone will have a great build that you don't like...is your fear that they will have a powerful build that they enjoy... really worth taking away everyone's chance to enjoy making and customizing their own mech? If 1 build is the best of them all...balance the weapons better...make x hit a little harder etc

The worry isn't about someone discovering a "great loadout" and the solution to stop boating isn't to re balance although the weapons although certainly some of them could stand to be looked at. To take your D&D example into context here. If someone wants to play a half-orc barbarian that abuses the jump attack mechanics by using a spiked chain; it can ruin the whole game for you. It can force the GM to change the terrain so that player can't abuse jump attack or the GM can throw tougher monsters at you. Well we don't have GM's that can take a role in every active mission played on the spot. So allowing people to create these builds is a poor idea.

Fluffinator, on 18 February 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Lastly with mech lore...most great pilots had their own build or variant that they made famous. I don't want to be a grunt who the techs laugh and say you will take this mech and like it...I want to be that hero who they respect so much they will try hard to make your mech as close to what you ask for as they are able to do within what is possible.

No offense but with the game not out nobody on the forums is a great pilot in MWO yet. There are certainly enough old players from other games bumping around that were great players. To be a great pilot you have to show you are skilled and have other people recognize it. Which leads to earning the privilege of perhaps designing a custom with PGI by winning a sanctioned tournament or some such. Otherwise your custom mech means nothing in this sense.

Edited by Chinook, 18 February 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[Kael Tropheus]

Very few heroes in the BT universe had customized mechs. Jamie Wolf and Takashi Kurita, two of the biggest names(perhaps the biggest) had stock Archers. Greyson Death, stock mech, the Bounty Hunter, stock Marauder II. The few that did, some of Snord's boys for example, had to do repairs with what they had on hand and the mechs had major issues because of it. Customization isnt Battletech, stock and varients all the way.

IS mechs are not designed at all to mix and match weapons, AT ALL. Even official varients required refitting in factories or from company staff, your average tech could not do it. IE full engineering staff was required to plan it out thus why there were only limited numbers of varients.

I will be very disappointed if the game includes full customization and the unbalance it promotes, There is nothing skillful about finding the most optimal net-mech configuration. Stock mechs and varients keep everyone on the same level to where skill really does play a part.

Edited by Kael Tropheus, 18 February 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Siphonaptera]

=Outlaw=, on 18 February 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

They don't. They simply have no customization, no mechlab. Its clear the devs are hesitating introducing it because it will muck up balance. No amount of aero or BA can magically fix the issues the mechlab brings with boating.

MWLL is FULL of boats already:

• Vulture with 4 LRM 20's
  
• Awesome and a Clan mech with 4+ large lasers/ppcs
  
• Fafnir with 4 LBX20's

Are 3 quick examples...

Plus a ton of other boats that fit in fine and are balanced because of how they handled heat (I'd make the heat generation a little higher and cooldown faster than they have currently) which discourages most alpha strikes but allows many high heat weapons to be fired in a few seconds.

People picking the same thing in the mechlab isn't any different than everyone taking the same premade mech. The fix is to discourage alpha strikes by forcing players to alpha strike over a few seconds, just like how alpha strikes are firing all weapons in a turn (10 seconds IIRC).

[_demir]

I'd like to see the MW2 customization system, as long as people can't put a LRM20 in the head of a 35 ton mech. There should be sane controls, but not SO MUCH control that it takes true customization out of the game.

I played the series and MW2 had the best system in my opinion. MW4 turned into a slugfest of heavy mechs all using AC20's with missles (which a salvo could easily kill a lighter mech) which meant you couldn't realistically pilot a lighter mech against a heavy or assault mech . . .but in MW2, a skilled player could routinely do this. I regularly handed players in heavy and assault mechs defeat using a medium mech, in the Grand Council ladder more than 15 years ago.

DFA (death from above) was a big part of the game and customizable (and directional) jump jets and true speed advantages allowed the lighter mechs to duke it out with the big boys. This contributed a rich combat system to the game that I never forget to this day.

It should be pointed out that missle boats and laser boats have extreme disadvantages, an intelligent player can exploit this in a properly designed system.

If I want to strip all the armor off a lighter mech, load it up with LRM and jump jets, maximum engine and electronics and evade . . .that should be in the game mechanics as an allowable tactic. One or two hits might be all she wrote, but that's a playstyle that should not be suppressed.

Edited by demir, 19 February 2012 - 01:58 AM.