78 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

Mcgral18, on 11 June 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

The Nova cannot mount 8 HoverJets

That's on top of repeatedly being unable to get vertical height and just face humping the wall, only to lose 20 HP from the legs every time you try it

Well, I can imagine that the getting stuck on the wall and receiving ghost damage can get really frustrating, that's why I proposed the idea of being able to direct your jump vector. But that could complicate things and a topic for another thread....

[wanderer]

Firing in midair should be horrid for accuracy, just like TT. That includes firing while falling.

Instead, there's fire-on-the-drop which has no issues whatsoever. And broken-for-mobility jets.

They need to 1) keep things inaccurate while airborne and 2) to normalize jump jet performance.

[Mystere]

wanderer, on 11 June 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

Firing in midair should be horrid for accuracy, just like TT. That includes firing while falling.

Instead, there's fire-on-the-drop which has no issues whatsoever. And broken-for-mobility jets.

They need to 1) keep things inaccurate while airborne and 2) to normalize jump jet performance.

Well, unpowered descent should be stable, but with the risk of leg damage if the JJs are not fired at the right time before touchdown.

Edited by Mystere, 11 June 2016 - 11:58 PM.

[Meathook]

wanderer, on 11 June 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

Firing in midair should be horrid for accuracy, just like TT. That includes firing while falling.

Instead, there's fire-on-the-drop which has no issues whatsoever. And broken-for-mobility jets.

They need to 1) keep things inaccurate while airborne and 2) to normalize jump jet performance.

This +1. Have the current shake while firing JJs still aczive when falling and seriously buff JJs. They should be great for mobility, to get in and out of fights quickly, not pop-tarting.

[wanderer]

Mystere, on 11 June 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

Well, unpowered descent should be stable, but with the risk of leg damage if the JJs are not fired at the right time before touchdown.

A 'Mech is not aerodynamically stable without thrust. More properly, it's like throwing a brick- without that thrust, it actually should start tumbling. Never mind what should be happening when it ends up getting shot by large amounts of explosives in midair...so yeah, even in freefall there's gonna be unstable aim. Plus, having unstable aim in midair means that jets become a mobility source and can be restored to proper levels of thrust, even on assaults.

(That jump jets should actually provide a set amount of movement capacity per jet and have limits based on engines is an exercise far past PGI's capability to comprehend, mind you.)

[Mcgral18]

Hit the Deck, on 11 June 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

Well, I can imagine that the getting stuck on the wall and receiving ghost damage can get really frustrating, that's why I proposed the idea of being able to direct your jump vector. But that could complicate things and a topic for another thread....

More Thrust IMO, vertical or horizontal (because then you can at least face **** the cliff effectively)

New features are out of the talks, unfortunately...hell, so are attribute edits.

[Hit the Deck]

Mcgral18, on 12 June 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

More Thrust IMO, vertical or horizontal (because then you can at least face **** the cliff effectively)

New features are out of the talks, unfortunately...hell, so are attribute edits.

Yes, more acceleration would help (while maintaining the attainable height).

[Pariah Devalis]

Hell... I would not mind a "staged" thrust system, personally.

Restore the power of a single jump jet so that you get a fixed amount of thrust. However, activating jump jets are an all or nothing affair, and you are shaken violently for the full duration of the burn. You can activate your jump jets in a single jump as many times as you have actual jump jets equipped, but each activation will be a full burn for that jet. Think of each jump jet you mount on the mech as a given amount of jump fuel capacity that you are able to utilize individually.

So, say you have three jump jets. You activate the first jump jet by tapping spacebar, and you get off the ground a few meters. You activate the second when the first one ends by tapping space again, and your momentum is kept while you continue to ascend. The entire climb your mech is like a baby shaking simulator. Now you wait to use the last jump jet for the descent to slow your fall by tapping space again.

Three jump jets equipped, three all or nothing burns available. Each gives you enough lifting force to matter, but individually a single jump jet might not be worth taking. It also makes the flight path a little more predictable, meaning poptarting, while it would still work on the descent, would be easier to lead a jumping target with.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 June 2016 - 05:10 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

This is just my opinion here but I think that PGI needs to redesign JJs based on how they want it. Personally, I'd make it so that 1 JJ gave you the same distance as the maximum. BUT, it would take you an insane amount of time to reach where you're going. If the chassis has a max of 4, you go X meters. Each JJ gives 25% of the thrust needed to get there. If you want to poptart with one freaking JJ, go ahead and see how well you do it.

[wanderer]

The saddest thing about JJs is they never needed the insanity Paul inflicting on their design in the first place. They have stated thrust capacity and limitations in tabletop, and all he had to do was follow the model to get 'Mechs that jumped the same way we have ground speed.

Instead, we got the hot mess and hoverjets we have today.

[topgun505]

Jets are, without a doubt, very goofy in how they act in this game. Was just in a match on Frozen City in a Cheetah and hit the jets and did a full burn on them ... and at the top I just hung there. Literally just hung there like gravity forgot I existed for about 5 full seconds until it remembered "Oh, right, I need to pull him back down again." But in the mean time I can't move for s*** and anything around me would have had an easy time murderizing me. Nobody was at the mid level, where I ended up, to take advantage of that ... but still ... this is some really weird behavior. But then again, a LOT of the physics/collisions in this game are wonky.

[Aeon Veritas]

I like the mechanic Pariah Devalis discribed above.

But however they change it, if ever, I think they realy should take gravity into account.
Currently we have 3 stats in the map loading screen shown, the ambient temerature, surface water an surface gravity.
The gravity range is from 0,8 (Grim Plexus, Forrest Colony, ...) to 1,2 (Alpine Peaks, Polar Highlands, ...) but afaik it has no effect.
I want to suggest to use this value as divisor for the JJ-boost.
As example: in the first post is said "my Hunch IIC does have a full JJ compliment, as I've made it a poptart. The 4 JJs net me ~50 units vertical height, ...".
On a map with 0,8 gravity this mech should imho be able to reach (50/0,8=) 62,5 units vertical height and for the case of 1,2 gravity it would just reach (50/1,2=) 41,7 units.
Further the gravity should be recognized in the formulas for fall damage and speed.

Edited by Aeon Veritas, 13 June 2016 - 05:27 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

When was the last time PGI touched the Class I and Class II jump jets? 2 years ago?

[Hit the Deck]

Alistair Winter, on 13 June 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

When was the last time PGI touched the Class I and Class II jump jets? 2 years ago?

Nope, Class I JJs were getting their thrust (acceleration) buffed at the cost of their fuel capacity not too long ago, I think it's near the end of last year (too lazy to dig those patch notes). A couple of the others JJ classes also got some treatments but I forgot exactly which and how.

[EvilCow]

I like the idea to have 2 modes for jets:

1) High thrust vertical mode, your mech jumps up at 1G maintaining its current direction and speed (inertia) with a slight forward impulse (0.1G). The number of jets only affect the duration of thrust not thrust itself. Gravity would affect that 1G, it could be more in low gravity, less in high gravity, physics.

2) Hoover mode, your mech jumps forward (or backward) at 0.8G with a 0.2G up impulse. Speed boost would be capped to 50% of top speed for the mech. Even in this mode the number of JJs affect the duration of thrust not the thrust itself.

There would be two buttons for the two modes, it would be possible to change mode during boost, for example first UP to clear an obstacle then FORWARD.

During boost phase the reticle would jump randomly like it is done currently, during coasting there would just be a very small wobble.

It would be a mix of the best in MW2/MWLL/MWO and make the game more fun.

Edited by EvilCow, 13 June 2016 - 06:02 AM.

[Mcgral18]

We'll find out this week what the "significant boost" to the HoverJet skill tree is


Apparently the extra 1.23 thrust given to forward boost wasn't considered enough...
Who would have thought.



I'm still not hopeful for anything but Meds to fly, and no Assault with 4-5 (or 8-10 tons) of HoverJets™ will even compare to a Med with 3 (1.5 tons)



It's not necromancy if its relevant
The current linear HoverJet formula makes making relevant high count Jumpers difficult, because the first one ALWAYS give the most (and often only) benefit.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 February 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[Tordin]

I joined around october, november 2014, so I never experienced the glory days of the pre-nerf JJ. But if those made PPC/ Gauss pop tarting OP as frack, well that shouldnt be a problem now, would it? Gauss charge, slower ppc bolt velocity and such would balance it out still if the JJ truly become JJ, or am I wrong?

[Mcgral18]

Tordin, on 27 February 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

I joined around october, november 2014, so I never experienced the glory days of the pre-nerf JJ. But if those made PPC/ Gauss pop tarting OP as frack, well that shouldnt be a problem now, would it? Gauss charge, slower ppc bolt velocity and such would balance it out still if the JJ truly become JJ, or am I wrong?

3 second PPC cooldown at 8 heat and 2 KM/s travel speed
It was much worse than it is now, with alternatives being absolute rubbish


It's part of the Nerfinator history, keeping that meta alive for years.




But, history aside, yes, they could be made bad and HoverJets™ be made good. Ideally, both should be viable. Longer cooldowns would go a long way towards that (with the 1600M range cERPPC having the same cooldown as the 540M max range isAC20)
Bringing it up from 3 seconds (for the isPPC and isERPPC) was a good choice...but arguably not enough. They can remain powerful, but shouldn't necessarily recharge at the same rate as brawling weapons.
Keep high heat, high velocity, and give them high cooldown as well, if needed. Make them good, but not brawling good.
Though, heat does tend to limit that after a couple alphas, given time, and damage output is inferior to dedicated brawlers.





As for HoverJets™, they could follow the same methodology. Let Assault HoverJets™ be just as effective as Class IV Medium JJs. Let the Victor-K jump as well as the SadCat, but give them either higher heat or higher recharge time (so he can't spam them at recycle, or more than once every 10 seconds), but still be effective at traversing terrain and poptarting (if they so choose).


You could also change the current linear jump system so that the first HoverJet™ does not provide the highest benefit, and instead make that victor take multiple to provide enough vertical thrust for poptarting.




But, we can expect simple number multipliers with the skill tree, which might make grabbing a handful worthwhile. Maybe.
Only time will tell.

[Deathlike]

Tagline: Hoverjets™ on Assaults - 2 tons per JJ isn't what it used to be