78 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Yes, JJs again. The HoverJets™ that plague all but the Med class (specifically, Class 4 JJs), which are largely acceptable.

Stat wise...they don't seem too different from the heavier things, same Z thrust, same forward boost across all classes. Perhaps it's just the weight of the mech itself in the calculation that makes the difference?

JJ stats:

-<Module CType="CJumpJetStats" name="JumpJets_ClassI" id="1500">
<ModuleStats components="centre_torso, right_torso, left_torso, right_leg, left_leg" health="10" tons="2" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\JumpJets_ClassI.dds" descTag="@JumpJets_ClassI_desc" nameTag="@JumpJets_ClassI"/>
<JumpJetStats maxTons="200" minTons="90" heat="3.0,0.09" turn="0.7" boost_z="68" boost_fwd="4.1" boost_instant="220" duration="4.1" cooldown="0.53125"/>

-<Module CType="CJumpJetStats" name="JumpJets_ClassII" id="1501">
<ModuleStats components="centre_torso, right_torso, left_torso, right_leg, left_leg" health="10" tons="1" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\JumpJets_ClassII.dds" descTag="@JumpJets_ClassII_desc" nameTag="@JumpJets_ClassII"/>
<JumpJetStats maxTons="90" minTons="80" heat="2.25,0.25" turn="0.6" boost_z="68" boost_fwd="4.1" boost_instant="200" duration="3.75" cooldown="0.5"/>

-<Module CType="CJumpJetStats" name="JumpJets_ClassIII" id="1502">
<ModuleStats components="centre_torso, right_torso, left_torso, right_leg, left_leg" health="10" tons="1" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\JumpJets_ClassIII.dds" descTag="@JumpJets_ClassIII_desc" nameTag="@JumpJets_ClassIII"/>
<JumpJetStats maxTons="80" minTons="60" heat="1.7,0.09" turn="0.8" boost_z="75" boost_fwd="4.1" boost_instant="200" duration="3.75" cooldown="0.5547"/>

-<Module CType="CJumpJetStats" name="JumpJets_ClassIV" id="1503">
<ModuleStats components="centre_torso, right_torso, left_torso, right_leg, left_leg" health="10" tons="0.5" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\JumpJets_ClassIV.dds" descTag="@JumpJets_ClassIV_desc" nameTag="@JumpJets_ClassIV"/>
<JumpJetStats maxTons="60" minTons="40" heat="2.0,0.06" turn="0.9" boost_z="75" boost_fwd="4.1" boost_instant="120" duration="3.75" cooldown="0.7"/>

-<Module CType="CJumpJetStats" name="JumpJets_ClassV" id="1504">
<ModuleStats components="centre_torso, right_torso, left_torso, right_leg, left_leg" health="10" tons="0.5" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\JumpJets_ClassV.dds" descTag="@JumpJets_ClassV_desc" nameTag="@JumpJets_ClassV"/>
<JumpJetStats maxTons="40" minTons="20" heat="1.7,0.09" turn="1.0" boost_z="37" boost_fwd="4.1" boost_instant="110" duration="3.75" cooldown="1.0"/>

Or perhaps a more readable form:


Unknowns are the Heat, and Cooldown at a glance doesn't look right. I'll assume Cooldown is a penalty to the stock time, whatever it is, meaning Assault JJs take nearly twice as long as Light JJs to recycle...if that's right.

In my testing, ~10 seconds for a Cheetah for max JJ burn to full recharge, and ~13 seconds for a Victor, both having 6 JJs.
Math doesn't work out in that case.

Cheetah max height was 66 units vertical
Victor max height was 43 units vertical

Both having 6 JJs, though the Cheetah pays 3 tons to the 6 of the Victor.
That would be Class 5 and Class 2 JJs (Victor being the only mech thus far with Class 2s, 80 and 85 tonners)

3JJs on a Spider gets you 37 Z height
3 JJs on an HGN gets you 26 Z height

Keep in mind, the Spider pays 1.5 tons for that, to the 6 tons of the HGN.
Now, I can understand wanting to keep Class I JJs down, as poptarting Whales is a fearsome consideration. However, at the moment, the cost to performance ratio of JJs is pretty bad.

Unless forced (see Omnimechs), it seems most people do not take a full compliment. One is all that's needed to traverse pebbles or bunny hop your way up a sharp incline, and they spend the tonnage on heatsinks or weapons.

One Jump Jet gets you nearly all the benefit, while additional ones seem to have not much effect.

Admittedly, my Hunch IIC does have a full JJ compliment, as I've made it a poptart. The 4 JJs net me ~50 units vertical height, which is plenty with the high mounts and general effectiveness of Class 4 JJs (the best of the bunch).
A single JJ nets you 17 units.
2 JJs nets you 28 units
3JJs nets you 39 units
Then the full compliment ~50

Noticeably linear, roughly +11 units per JJ, after the initial 17 units.

Compared to the Class Is on a HGN
1 nets you ~14 units
2 nets you ~19 units
3 nets you ~26 units

A similar linear amount, but this time only 7 units.

This costs 6 tons on the HGN, to the 2 tons of the Hunch, for significantly worse performance. Albeit, relative cost for the 50 ton mech to 90 ton mech makes it ~4 tons for the Hunch, still an improvement. (unscientific calculation of total mass, ignoring engines and stuff)


Would it be better if more JJs gave you a noticeable improvement? More of an exponential curve to the current linear?
The current mediocre 1JJ stays, but taking a full compliment adds a not insignificant improvement? Enough thrust or height that an Assault can actually use their 6+ tons of investment to gain both decent height, while also not significantly damaging their legs, maintaining enough fuel to slow descent?

I'd almost suggest a bonus given when a full compliment is taken, but mechs with a low cap, like 2 of the Jester/Huggin (not a bad thing) or 3 of a Whale, are given a fair advantage, while high caps like 10 of the Spiders, Jenner IICs or 5 for the Heavy Metal are hurt.


Alternatively, just buff the other JJs to the tune of the Class 4s in effectiveness. Give Lights more Z thrust, as they have a hard time clearing buildings without humping them first. Reduce the duration of Assault JJs (at least...I think that would make the Thrust happen faster, same thrust, less time), to make them less HoverJets™, but make a significant movement.


If HoverJets™ are transitioned to Jump Jets, cooldowns could be touched to prevent excessive spam on the heavier end, while Lights and Meds should probably retain roughly current values. Both for the mobility, and I daresay for the Med Poptarts (of which there are few, on both factions).

There is the possibility of poptarting returning...but that's not a bad thing in itself. The issue back then was EVERYTHING sucking balls in comparison, and Poptarting weapons being the best overall thing on the battlefield. 40% damage nerfs to SRMs, Lasers with wonky hitreg and poor stats, no quirks.
The game is in a very different state, where SRMs only suck relative balls to lasers, and will beat PPCs in a brawl (while back then, they were more akin to spitballs, and PPCs brawled adequately, and (u)AC5s wonderfully).

As it stands, certain Meds can be adequate poptarts, the BJ-3, Nova and Hunch IIC (I find acceptable, Gauss+PPC) among them.
Those are, at most, 20-25 PP FLD, which pales in comparison to 45 at the peak, or the 30-35 that followed it.
Compare that to the Laser or SRM alphas? SRM24 is 48 damage, a pack of MLs 30, Tri of LPLs 33...mix and match those, and you exceed the PP FLD, with higher DPS and sustainability on top of it all.

In other words...Poptarts wouldn't be top of EVERY foodchain, but have a place, good in a certain niche, but will lose in others.
As it should be with balance and weapon types.


TL:DR
HoverJets™ aren't great. Meds can jump alright. Opportunity Cost for JJs are kinda rubbish in most cases.

• Normalize JJs around that performance mark?
  
• Make them more powerful, but shorter duration? Jump instead of Hover?
  
• Give JJs an exponential curve of effectiveness instead of Linear?

If none of those look appealing, what would you suggest for helping the JJs? Disclaimer: If you say they're fine, I might have to slap you.

If someone wanted to get some extra number comparisons for me, that'd also be nice. How about 5JJs from each class? I cannot do Assaults Class I (Heavy Metal), but should have most other Classes (Summoner, Wolverine, large selection of Lights).

[monk]

The JJs were a thousand times more fun and useful before the changes. There were so many other options for fixing poptarting - almost all of them were better. One of the mystery decisions.

[Lyoto Machida]

monk, on 17 December 2015 - 01:03 AM, said:

The JJs were a thousand times more fun and useful before the changes. There were so many other options for fixing poptarting - almost all of them were better. One of the mystery decisions.

Same as adding ghost heat instead of bumping PPC/ERPPC heat back to TT values. It's like they always take the most convoluted option out there.

[Hit the Deck]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

...
In other words...Poptarts wouldn't be top of EVERY foodchain, but have a place, good in a certain niche, but will lose in others.
As it should be with balance and weapon types.
....

The issue is not that poptarting becoming the new meta but it just doesn't look good with Mechs jumping like rabbits all over the place....

I'd like a new mechanics for JJs but not sure how to implement it (I know that they won't change it). Maybe make JJs have really big thrust which last for a short time. The initial thrust has to be so high that your Mechs can get into high places. Maybe make it so that you can jump only when the fuel bar is full or increase the CD greatly.

Jumping Mechs in Mech Commander look good and that's how I imagine it should look like or function.

[Mcgral18]

Lyoto Machida, on 17 December 2015 - 01:07 AM, said:

Same as adding ghost heat instead of bumping PPC/ERPPC heat back to TT values. It's like they always take the most convoluted option out there.

They made sure to do that...after Ghost Heat was implemented.


Care to guess which curbed the PPC Meta?

Hit the Deck, on 17 December 2015 - 01:12 AM, said:

The issue is not that poptarting becoming the new meta but it just doesn't look good with Mechs jumping like rabbits all over the place....

I'd like a new mechanics for JJs but not sure how to implement it (I know that they won't change it). Maybe make JJs have really big thrust which last for a short time. The initial thrust has to be so high that your Mechs can get into high places. Maybe make it so that you can jump only when the fuel bar is full or increase the CD greatly.

Jumping Mechs in Mech Commander look good and that's how I imagine it should look like or function.

I don't mind that method, but it makes trying to navigate terrain a pain.
If you're talking about the MWLL rocket like approach. It would certainly fix poptarting as an issue entirely...if we didn't have ~4G.

I honestly don't know what number changes would look like with JJs, as there's no reference. If only we had the option to test them, somehow...

[DeathWaffle]

If you're gonna give jumpjets pgi might as well give them for real
https://youtu.be/_Sy6ZoMxRtE?t=30s

[Idalgos]

Yep, we need to have JJ that allow us to boost mobility of our mech not only by improving hill humping abilities.
Hey, that Heavy Metal still have a choice of 5 JJ or 2 LL.

[Lily from animove]

I lack control between being able to forward and upward thrust.

most fo the times when youw ant to go upwards to building your have to forwardly "bump"jump into ot to get the sudden upwards push. That feels weird to scratch you nose on buildings to get up. And then when you want to jump far, you simply cannot because of the inevitable upward thrust.

[Mcgral18]

Lily from animove, on 17 December 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

I lack control between being able to forward and upward thrust.

most fo the times when youw ant to go upwards to building your have to forwardly "bump"jump into ot to get the sudden upwards push. That feels weird to scratch you nose on buildings to get up. And then when you want to jump far, you simply cannot because of the inevitable upward thrust.

Yeah, Lights having the worst Z boost likely contributes to that, but all classes have it.

Better than not being able to access them at all, but it is funny to watch.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I think that Mediums are just about where they should be, heavies are close, its lights and assaults that are way off.

Put 4 JJ's on a light, and its still sluggish and you can barely get on top of anything, put those same 4 on a medium and you're superman, doesn't make sense.

We've got appropriate heat and fall damage (even with as many stupid glitches as we get from it, 100 MPs falls from 2 meters ect, edge overflight w/e) but thrust and height caps are still way off on Lgt+***.

[C E Dwyer]

More J.J's should get you better launch and height, it's feeble as it stands.

Coming back to poptarting and the Dragon Slayer, and the Phract the old boogie men, if both had to max out their JJ's to get to jump rather than just hover, the PPC builds would run to hot, to be truely effective, the old problem was that a single JJ was to effective, and when P.G.I added heat and a linear improvement, for numbers it wasn't effective because they chose a poor method.

Since Masc was added, the game has mechs that can effectively poptart on the horizontal, instead of vertical.

Certainly JJ's are utterly useless now in anything larger than a medium, the executioner, using masc while it jumps a major exception allowing it to jump a lot of the gaps on the canyon map, because it has max engines and masc.

Maxing out your JJ's on any mech should be giving you considerably, harder and longer jumping than it does now. and the old boogie men would not be effective as Poptarts any longer because the lack of Heat sinks traded for JJ's would make them over heat to quickly, and heat dissipation to low.

[Khobai]

The way jumpjets work is completely idiotic.

Jumpjets should work totally differently from how they do. Each time you engage your jumpjets it should consume 50% of your fuel but it should give the mech a quick burst of explosive thrust that instantly accelerates the mech in the desired direction. It should not work like it does now where you accelerate so slowly you *barely* counter gravity enough to get off the ground.

Jumpjets should have vectored controls so you can jumpjet in any direction you want (up, left, right, forward, backward, etc...) And since each jump consumes 50% of your fuel youd be able to chain two jumps together before running out of fuel. So you could jump up twice, jump up then forward, jump back twice, jump right then jump forward, etc...

Although in order to keep stronger jumpjets balanced, I do think the reticle should keep shaking until you touch the ground again. It shouldnt stop shaking as soon as the jump thrust cuts off. Or maybe just prevent players from firing weapons altogether while jumping.

Edited by Khobai, 17 December 2015 - 02:29 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

The way jumpjets work is completely idiotic.

Jumpjets should work totally differently from how they do. Each time you engage your jumpjets it should consume 50% of your fuel but it should give the mech a quick burst of explosive thrust that instantly accelerates the mech in the desired direction. It should not work like it does now where you accelerate so slowly you *barely* counter gravity enough to get off the ground.

Jumpjets should have vectored controls so you can jumpjet in any direction you want (up, left, right, forward, backward, etc...) And since each jump consumes 50% of your fuel youd be able to chain two jumps together before running out of fuel. So you could jump up twice, jump up then forward, jump back twice, jump right then jump forward, etc...

Although in order to keep stronger jumpjets balanced, I do think the reticle should keep shaking until you touch the ground again. It shouldnt stop shaking as soon as the jump thrust cuts off. Or maybe just prevent players from firing weapons altogether while jumping.

I don't want to remove Poptarting altogether.
It stands to have a place, just not obscenely better than everything. With good lasers and kinda working hitreg, Laservomit stands to be a good counter against them.
Of course, they can also use lasers.


Vectored JJs would be nice, but a touch more complicated, and of course would need new code.

[General Taskeen]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

Vectored JJs would be nice, but a touch more complicated, and of course would need new code.

Well if they are unwilling to experiment and develop new code, then they will remain as crap HoverJets as they have since this games inception. Otherwise adjusting XML sheets does nothing to address how a core mechanic is programmed.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Would be nice if my Executioner JJs would get me up to more places. 8 tons of JJ and I can barely get over a ridge.

Those and the Summoners.

I actually like poptarting and PPFLD, just saying.

[SgtMagor]

Jump jets been needing a rework since the nerf. countless threads pointing to the fact that jump jets are terrible keep popping up heh!.

1-vectored thrust
2-more powerful thrust
3-make hovering a feature, for scouting and recon.
4-restore the mobility to jump jetting mechs. the Dragon Slayer, Heavy Metal, and all jump jetting mechs will thank you kindly!

[Gas Guzzler]

We have been over this time and time again. It is obvious that if JJs are buffed any more, Cataphracts, Victors, and Highlanders will take over the world with there 30-35 damage alphas.

[Mcgral18]

Dakota1000, on 17 December 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

Would be nice if my Executioner JJs would get me up to more places. 8 tons of JJ and I can barely get over a ridge.

Those and the Summoners.

I actually like poptarting and PPFLD, just saying.

The Assaults are among the worst performing HoverJets™.

Also halve turn speed while in the air.

[Deathlike]

In previous MW games (probably just MW2), having more JJs would give you more JJ fuel to work with.

Besides increasing thrust for more JJs, more fuel availability (in the form of duration) would actually allow more JJs to become more useful... instead of the "get 1 JJ only" phenomenon.

[Otto Cannon]

It doesn't help that they've got the gravity set vastly higher than it should be. Jumpjets never needed to be nerfed to stop poptarting in the first place either- all they had to do was make firing less accurate without shaking the reticle. Then we could have proper powerful and fast jumpjets (with a longer cooldown to stop spamming) that give high mobility in return for the tonnage sacrifice but don't give actual combat advantage.