78 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Otto Cannon, on 17 December 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

It doesn't help that they've got the gravity set vastly higher than it should be. Jumpjets never needed to be nerfed to stop poptarting in the first place either- all they had to do was make firing less accurate without shaking the reticle. Then we could have proper powerful and fast jumpjets (with a longer cooldown to stop spamming) that give high mobility in return for the tonnage sacrifice but don't give actual combat advantage.

Yeah, they nerfed most aspects of poptarting, from the JJs themselves stat wise, fall damage, JJ heat, JJ shake, then they nerfed the Weapons, from 2KM/s PPCs to 1500 to ~1000. ACs took a couple hits, but nowhere near the PPC level. Some velocity and cooldown.

[Lostdragon]

JJ definitely need some love. The MW:LL video someone linked earlier in the thread is way more akin to how I would like to see them work than the current anemic implementation. Lots of initial thrust with vectoring to give fine control in the air to make that perfect landing would be so much more fun and useful than hoverjets 3.0 or whatever version we are on now.

[Revis Volek]

Lyoto Machida, on 17 December 2015 - 01:07 AM, said:

Same as adding ghost heat instead of bumping PPC/ERPPC heat back to TT values. It's like they always take the most convoluted option out there.

This is a classic case of thinking you can REINVENT the wheel or that your NEW idea will always trump something Old, but tried and true.

They are trying to be too fancy IMO, just stick to what works and quit making a mess out of it.

[Malleus011]

I'd like to see concrete benefits for taking more JJs. Preferably, one will let you hop, two will let you jump kind of like we do now, and 3+ gets your more and more fuel and control while jumping. It would allow a 3JJ Highlander some maneuverability, but less than a 4JJ Victor or 5JJ Griffin. An 8JJ Spider should be able to do some pretty cool aerobatics.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

In previous MW games (probably just MW2), having more JJs would give you more JJ fuel to work with.

Besides increasing thrust for more JJs, more fuel availability (in the form of duration) would actually allow more JJs to become more useful... instead of the "get 1 JJ only" phenomenon.

So, same effectiveness sort of thing, but 1 JJ would get you...1-2 seconds of Thrust, 2=3s, 3=4.5s, 4=6s sort of thing?
Ramp up in effectiveness the more you bring?

Or I guess just Linear. Gives 1 JJ enough to maybe traverse a pebble, but no where enough to jump your height? A nerf to what is the current ~4s norm for small amounts, but a buff to those who bring more (like the Suckonner).


Of course, that solution doesn't help the Jester or Huggin, but I guess JJ quirks? Or just an expanded cap. There's no reason to keep the low cap (aside from Omnis, but that's also another matter).

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

So, same effectiveness sort of thing, but 1 JJ would get you...1-2 seconds of Thrust, 2=3s, 3=4.5s, 4=6s sort of thing?
Ramp up in effectiveness the more you bring?

Or I guess just Linear. Gives 1 JJ enough to maybe traverse a pebble, but no where enough to jump your height? A nerf to what is the current ~4s norm for small amounts, but a buff to those who bring more (like the Suckonner).


Of course, that solution doesn't help the Jester or Huggin, but I guess JJ quirks? Or just an expanded cap. There's no reason to keep the low cap (aside from Omnis, but that's also another matter).

Well... our balance overlord is too lazy to do some sort of exponential growth, in favor of being linear. It's actually easy to have a slope where the base 1 JJ is low, but the 2nd and 3rd JJs are leaps and bounds greater.

Just use a simple math equation...

y = 7x - 3

y is the JJ thrust in meters
x is the # of JJs equipped (x > 0)

It's not a complicated concept either way.

JJ quirks should exist (for duration and thrust), particularly for omnimechs that have them locked in. However, that should not be applied to something like the Cute Fox or Timberwolf.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 December 2015 - 10:17 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

Well... our balance overlord is too lazy to do some sort of exponential growth, in favor of being linear. It's actually easy to have a slope where the base 1 JJ is low, but the 2nd and 3rd JJs are leaps and bounds greater.

Just use a simple math equation...

y = 7x - 3

y is the JJ thrust in meters
x is the # of JJs equipped (x > 0)

It's not a complicated concept either way.

JJ quirks should exist (for duration and thrust), particularly for omnimechs that have them locked in. However, that should not be applied to something like the Cute Fox or Timberwolf.

Cute Fox could probably use them...then again, Class V JJ buffs would accomplish the same thing.
Worst height thrust of them all. Likely to account for less weight, but it's still pretty sad. Weight does play a factor, right?


At least Russ has said HoverJets™ might get a look in the future.

[Roughneck45]

I would just like the burn time for heavies and assaults to be longer.

Its ok that they travel slowly through the air, its not ok when I take max JJ's on a Highlander and can barley scale a ledge.

So if larger JJ's had "more fuel" so to speak and the same arc and travel time I think they would better. Still not outstanding for combat, but good enough that you can actually get on top of things.

[Summon3r]

+1

[Mechteric]

Jump jets don't have to be floaty and boring to curb jump sniping. Mechwarrior Living Legends remains the best proof of this.

By jumping faster, you also have to jump higher if you want to jump snipe, and jumping higher means you are in the air longer. This is more time for the opponent to hit you while you are in the air.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 18 December 2015 - 02:21 PM.

[Roughneck45]

CapperDeluxe, on 18 December 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

Jump jets don't have to be floaty and boring to curb jump sniping. Mechwarrior Living Legends remains the best proof of this.

By jumping faster, you also have to jump higher if you want to jump snipe, and jumping higher means you are in the air longer. This is more time for the opponent to hit you while you are in the air.

I dig it.

Makes it viable to attack with but open to some serious return fire considering you come down slower than you went up.

[Mcgral18]

Roughneck45, on 18 December 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

I dig it.

Makes it viable to attack with but open to some serious return fire considering you come down slower than you went up.

MWO's ~4G does complicate that, however.

Things fall quickly.

[Darlith]

I really don't mind the max height of most of my JJ capable mechs. I just hate how sometimes they seem to glacially achieve that height. Well and getting stuck on random bits of terrain somehow halting all upward momentum, or the game deciding to revert to climbing rules for a minute.

[Alistair Winter]

They do need to yield exponential benefits. Devoting 6 tons of weight to jump jets is a huuuuge sacrifice, especially on assault mechs that require STD engines in order to survive. XL engines on Highlanders are not a good idea, the mech isn't fast enough to evade fire like a Victor or Zeus.

However, I would argue that while light and medium mechs should fly quickly into the air, the Class I jump jets should provide high altitude at a very slow pace. You see, the problem with poptarts is/was their ability to constantly jump up and down to pick their shots. That's not what I'm looking for, personally. I want Highlanders and Dire Wolves to be able to climb tall cliffs and buildings with ease, but it should take a bit of time. They shouldn't just catapult up to the plateau on Viridian Bog in 0.4 seconds. But they should get up there, eventually, with ease. At least if they've equipped all 3-4 jump jets.

• Slow climb rate
  
• High maximum altitude
  
• Huge fuel capacity, providing long burns

[Mcgral18]

Alistair Winter, on 18 December 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

They do need to yield exponential benefits. Devoting 6 tons of weight to jump jets is a huuuuge sacrifice, especially on assault mechs that require STD engines in order to survive. XL engines on Highlanders are not a good idea, the mech isn't fast enough to evade fire like a Victor or Zeus.

However, I would argue that while light and medium mechs should fly quickly into the air, the Class I jump jets should provide high altitude at a very slow pace. You see, the problem with poptarts is/was their ability to constantly jump up and down to pick their shots. That's not what I'm looking for, personally. I want Highlanders and Dire Wolves to be able to climb tall cliffs and buildings with ease, but it should take a bit of time. They shouldn't just catapult up to the plateau on Viridian Bog in 0.4 seconds. But they should get up there, eventually, with ease. At least if they've equipped all 3-4 jump jets.

• Slow climb rate
  
• High maximum altitude
  
• Huge fuel capacity, providing long burns

Useful HoverJets™ instead of paperweights...better than what we have, I'll give you that.


So, just up the duration of Class I&II for every additional JJ?

[Alistair Winter]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

Useful HoverJets™ instead of paperweights...better than what we have, I'll give you that.

So, just up the duration of Class I&II for every additional JJ?

Definitely. So you can still jump-snipe with them, but not very often at all. Additionally, the slow climbing rate makes it easy for enemies to hit you as you're flying.

Listen, I understand that people want more viable playstyles, and people feel that poptarting would be a welcome addition to Nascar brawling or sniping. But huge mechs just jumping up and down is something I find... aesthetically displeasing. It would be different if mechs could actually move around in mid-air like true Gundams, just like mechs could in Mechwarrior 2 when we had 6 (!!!) different jump jet buttons to maneuver in mid-air.

Lostech.

But that's not coming back. We're never going to have cool jump jets in MWO, it's just going to be a rocket jetpack. So I would prefer if they were mainly used for mobility and the occassional jump sniping, rather than the bunny-hopping poptarting.

[Mcgral18]

Alistair Winter, on 18 December 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Definitely. So you can still jump-snipe with them, but not very often at all. Additionally, the slow climbing rate makes it easy for enemies to hit you as you're flying.

Listen, I understand that people want more viable playstyles, and people feel that poptarting would be a welcome addition to Nascar brawling or sniping. But huge mechs just jumping up and down is something I find... aesthetically displeasing. It would be different if mechs could actually move around in mid-air like true Gundams, just like mechs could in Mechwarrior 2 when we had 6 (!!!) different jump jet buttons to maneuver in mid-air.

Lostech.

But that's not coming back. We're never going to have cool jump jets in MWO, it's just going to be a rocket jetpack. So I would prefer if they were mainly used for mobility and the occassional jump sniping, rather than the bunny-hopping poptarting.

I would love a more involved system...but I'm far to jaded to expect more than a variable edit at this point.
Even that is too much to ask, most of the time.


I must say...I think I'd prefer a touch faster speed on the Class 1s. They are quite sluggish...but Dual Gauss poptarting Whale is also something I would fear. It would only jump marginally worse than a HGN, due to the 10 ton difference.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

I would love a more involved system...but I'm far to jaded to expect more than a variable edit at this point.
Even that is too much to ask, most of the time.


I must say...I think I'd prefer a touch faster speed on the Class 1s. They are quite sluggish...but Dual Gauss poptarting Whale is also something I would fear. It would only jump marginally worse than a HGN, due to the 10 ton difference.

To be fair, most Dire Whales that run JJs use only 1... which is a non-issue. It's the Executioner that is the benchmark for JJs for Assaults (and Summoners for Heavies).

Edited by Deathlike, 18 December 2015 - 04:03 PM.

[Airu]

Lights suffer the most as always. What gave jj lights an edge in battle, now barely gives an advantage in reaching some high places. When you jump, you are so slow, everyone and their mother can shoot you.The jj nerf made me ragequit from this game for more than a year...

[Naduk]

The op has failed to address the difference in tonnage between most of the Mech he is comparing
The difficulties in lifting 35tons vs 100tons are vastly different and require different approaches

I think we need a different approach per weight class
The thrust per jet makes alot of sense and should stay across the board

If you want powerful jumpjets back for assaults
The speed of refuel need to be lowered by an extreme amount, taking one jump jet should be able to get you over most medium obstacles , but then you have a two min wait for your fuel to charge
The more jets the better your thrust and the better your fuel charges with Max load bringing your fuel recharge speed back to roughly what it is now bit slower perhaps

I think lights and mediums are almost OK
If you increased the thrust a bit but add a bonus for taking Max jet load for that chassis (use perk system so value can be independently tuned for edge cases like 12jj spider )
Lastly if your moving fast and jumping the Mech should not come to a mini full stop when landing , the Mech should slide and carry momentum to create issues and flavor for Max mobility jumping builds , keeping fuel for landing stability and direction changes would be crucial

Heavys should stay roughly as they are now
The best of all world's class does not need the help , a bigger boost for taking Max jet should apply (omnis would like that)
They already have the speed of mediums with firepower of assaults with a touch less armour
They are the bulk of the played /used forces , any changes needed here should be done via quirks
For example the summoner would enjoy a quirk that drops his jj archetype to the same as mediums
But most of the heavies don't need special attention