78 replies to this topic

[Airu]

Lights are not ok, far from it. I pilot 10jj sdr5v almost exclusively and all that additional jump jets do is increase the maximum height you can jump, your vertical acceleration is the same slow lift. And thats a mech that was built around jumpjets and was famous for jumping 240 meters according to sarna. I don't need additional vertical distance, it is impractical anyway as you will ruin your legs on landing, what I would like to see is much, much greater acceleration when applying jets.
Jump jets for lights should be an evasive maneuver and not a "everyone shoot me" hover action. Poptarting was never a problem with lights.

Edited by Airu, 18 December 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 18 December 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

To be fair, most Dire Whales that run JJs use only 1... which is a non-issue. It's the Executioner that is the benchmark for JJs for Assaults (and Summoners for Heavies).

If they were more effective, they may be inclined to bring more...

There's the risk. There's also a risk to make Flamers OP, number adjustments can change everything.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

If they were more effective, they may be inclined to bring more...

Perhaps, but considering that the JJs are in the torsos (CT for the S variant), you are limited in your hardpoint options (in terms of what you want to fit) and there's the torso twist negaquirk that comes with it. Mind you, high mount energy hardpoints are a plus, but Gauss in the side torsos are risky for obvious reasons (I think many people try to fit them in the arms).

Quote

There's the risk. There's also a risk to make Flamers OP, number adjustments can change everything.

Sure there's a risk, but I don't remember a day when Flamers were ever OP.



Number adjustments are easier to make than actual mechanical changes to a weapon... so it's a situation that happens in the most inopportune times (like SRM or Streak mechanics, but lord knows Flamers and LBX need to suck less).

[Xhaleon]

1. Make the weapons spread effect apply to free falling mechs at 1/3 strength. A spread of 2.1 degrees while thrusting would become 0.7 degrees while gliding, for example.
2. Double jumpjet thrust across the board, do not touch fuel values (yet).
3. ????
4. Now Highlanders can happily take selfies on top of most buildings and send it to jealous grounded fatties. You know, high places? I mean, 38 meters into the air is only a little bit better than a single jumpjet in the source material... Poor Highlander.

Start off from here and tweak until everyone is happy.

It might seem like it would encourage the use of only a few jets, but perhaps the sheer speed of ascent and repeat-jump potential will be something to consider.

Edited by Xhaleon, 19 December 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Frankly, I think we should just restore the old thrust as is outlined here: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Keep all the nerfs but give us back our thrust and see what that does to the game. Tweak from there.

[MauttyKoray]

Edit: Cleaning up all the code tags now, sorry. Did direct copy/pastes from sarna.

Some lore stuff from Sarna on JJs (shut up about the TT/game thing, I know this isn't TT ffs, you people have no imaginations on conversions and translations between systems)

Quote

"By harnessing the power of a 'Mech's fusion engine to superheat air or another suitable fluid, Jump Jets allow a BattleMech to briefly overcome gravity and rocket short distances over the battlefield."

Generally, this is a jump jet, uses power from the engine to make 'rocket boots', woohoo!

Quote

"Because of the heat produced by jump jet activation and limited on-board fuel, jump jets can only maintain thrust for a few seconds."

A FEW SECONDS - The average mech shouldn't be jetting around on their fuel for so long, lights make ridiculous extended thrust jumps. This ties into the thrust, which should be producing a lot more than we get now. The term 'Highlander Burial' exists for a reason as well as Death From Above (granted this latter term doesn't exactly work in MWO and would be horribly abused) because mechs COULD jump fairly high distances, not just lights.

Quote

"Care must be taken when jumping, however, as jumping causes heat buildup with even the shortest jump generating more heat than running, and damage to a 'Mech's gyro or leg actuators and joints can cause a 'Mech to fumble upon landing."

Something we already have actually, the damage mechanic. However, the heat...JJs are a mobility tool, and they generated a LOT of heat. Lower burn time for higher thrust and more heat generated seems to be the way JJs should be from reading about them.

Quote

"Jumping makes a 'Mech harder to hit, but the accuracy of weapons fitted to the jumping 'Mech is also adversely affected."

Pretty much - JJ reticule shake. However I think to prevent the poptarts a different system needs to be added. The JJ shake already covers one aspect of it, but a screen shake tied to the velocity of your mech while its in the air should be included as well. If you're moving quickly up or down, the reticule shake should also take effect, this would give poptarts a place, albeit small, a split second timing, and at the risk of injuring their legs. (more on this hold on)

Quote

"The mass of the jump jets is proportionate to the mass of the 'Mech they are installed on, owing to the increased power needed to move a more massive object and the maximum number of jump jets that a 'Mech can carry, and thus its maximum jump distance, is limited by the motive power provided by the 'Mech's engine.

Bigger mechs have heavier JJs for a reason, let's not downplay this stupidity of the horrible jets that were given to Heavies/Assaults. Granted, variables such as number, and the power of the engine were also part of it. Seeing as MWO uses the hotswap system and you can vary your engine quite a bit, I think its reasonable to leave this one out and concentrate on the thrust/JJ ratio. More JJs = more thrust, so no an Assault shouldn't have 'lift off' with a single JJ, but it also should take twice the amount of time JJs are even supposed to be active with max JJs to just barely reach the height of a heavy mech.


--------------------------------------------------


Summary:
-JJs should be short, quick thrusts with less 'fuel' than we have now, only lasting a few seconds on average. An increased number of JJs should not increase fuel, nor should fewer decrease fuel. JJs counteract the added capacity by being used by the additional thrust of the JJ. Ex: 1 JJ = 1 Fuel, 3 JJs = 3 Fuel, 1/1 ratio maintained thus no 'additional' fuel is technically present.

-Aerial speed should affect reticule shake at higher speeds too, not just JJ usage in order to combat the effectiveness of poptarts. They still happen anyway PGI, accept it and just fix the PPFLD stuff instead. Oh hey, this one actually works towards minimizing that with poptarts too.

-Heat generation should be fairly significant as it will generate in a shorter amount of time. Less overall thrust time + more heat = burst of heat with time to cool off. Compared to the current slow heat generation throughout the entirety of the horribly long burn on JJs.

-JJ weight classes are meant to compensate for the mech's tonnage. While Lights should still jump higher/farther than lights, Heavies/Assaults should not be reduced to hoverjets and only have them for the most menial feature of unsticking from ankle level rocks. At full JJs an assault should still be reaching the height of another mech within 1.5-2 seconds or so.

-Less fuel means more conservation of the 'limited' (remember, less JJ fuel but better thrust!) fuel to cushion landing (easier to do with less fuel because better thrust) to prevent the leg damage.

-Lastly I'd like to input my own comment here: Momentum - A mech standing still should be reaching its full height potential, a small bit of forward movement allowing it to jump high and still reach that ledge in front of it. Running at full speed should be reducing the vertical ability and adding horizontal momentum to the jump however. A mech going 120kph and JJing shouldn't be reaching the same vertical height that the same mech standing still would. Our current system sort of works like this now but with the long lasting burn times JJs having its less of an arc and more of a straight line with a short arc at the very end.


--------------------------------------

Just a bit about the whole Omni/JJ thing people like to ***** about. I support the locked JJs and so does the lore. The JJs themselves never worked like the weapons did on Omni mechs. Specifically talking about the JJs here though, not the other equipment.

Quote

Like all fixed equipment, any jump jets hard-mounted to an OmniMech's base configuration cannot be removed, though they can be supplemented by pod mounted jump jets.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 19 December 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[Mcgral18]

A Christmas Buff.


Like HoverJets™ should get.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 24 December 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

A Christmas Buff.


Like HoverJets™ should get.

Santa Paul said:

You deserve coal.

[Tarl Cabot]

I can understand not giving heavier mechs a "quick" boost but just a slight increase and fuel should last longer to allow more distance coverage. That would change the action poptarting for heavier mechs cause they would not POP up like they did previously. No need to keep to TT/lore of approx 90m but a 3JJ Victor/Highlander/etc should be able to cover at least 45m instead of the current 19m.

[Mcgral18]

So, even with a full complement (of non removable HoverJets), of the best variety, mind you...there is difficulty in getting from Theta to the city in Frozen City


And that pisses me off. You need to find one of the lower slopes (towards the left) to get up, and even then you need to face hump the wall to eventually get yourself up there, and HOPE you don't get stuck in that godawful bug, thereupon taking a fuckton of leg damage because of it. (3%, 108 quirks, 338 armour, 160 structure) 18 damage from that fall, an AC20s worth if it Crit (which it didn't armour still intact)


That, along with the fact the best way to get up a hill is not to, as you might think, to actively use your HoverJets, but to repeatedly bunny hop, just tapping your HJ™s to get up a hill.




HoverJets still piss me off, 7 months later.
Hell, it's been YEARS

[Rhent]

I'd rather have JJ's with very fast ascent and descent. Talking about 1 second max up for JJ's and 1 second max decline when JJ's are off. Use JJ's for escape and moving levels, not for poptarting.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Rhent, on 11 June 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'd rather have JJ's with very fast ascent and descent. Talking about 1 second max up for JJ's and 1 second max decline when JJ's are off. Use JJ's for escape and moving levels, not for poptarting.

That would actually make poptarting better if you are using ACs or PPCs. You jump up, fire right when you start to descend, and you land all in one second. Enemy weapons based on velocity wouldn't have time to get to you and lasers won't be able to get a full burn on you.

[STEF_]

Mcgral18, on 11 June 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

HoverJets still piss me off, 7 months later.
Hell, it's been YEARS

HELL! Thanks to necro your thread!
I don't know why but, in December, I miss to post the obligatory pic (prolly I was on holiday )

[Mcgral18]

Stefka Kerensky, on 11 June 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

HELL! Thanks to necro your thread!
I don't know why but, in December, I miss to post the obligatory pic (prolly I was on holiday )

I'm (presently) complaining about the damned Class IVs, the BEST HoverJets™
Let's not touch on the Terribad Class Is

[DAYLEET]

Before JJ are changed they need to be fixed. And i mean when you hit terrain or anything with JJ engaged you accelerate and the game propel you through the air super high where everyone can just shoot you while you cant do ****.

Heavies and assault are fine as they are right now, you need momentum to make them work and thats fine. Lights and meds could use not randomly be thrown into the stratosphere and can we please enable "center on torso" key when in the air.

[Andi Nagasia]

i say more Jets should = More Thrust and Fuel,
1Jet = 10mHeight & 2seconds Burn
2Jet = 20mHeight & 3seconds Burn
3Jet = 30mHeight & 4seconds Burn
4Jet = 40mHeight & 5seconds Burn
5Jet = 50mHeight & 6seconds Burn

even if they are hover jet it would give us that use more than 1 a Higher Jump(after abit of hovering)

[Vanguard319]

I agree that JJs need to be revised. There are quite a few mechs that are known for their jumping capability (Highlander Summoner, etc.) and those mechs are all the worse for their inability to get off the ground. I mean, the extra speed on the Summoner is nice, but it's ultimately a poor substitute for the mobility offered by proper jump jets. It's also bad that the Highlander, a mech defined by it's ability to perform a death from above attack can barely get off the ground. (a Highlander that can't do a highlander burial is just sad.) and of course the Night Gyr has hardwired jump jets, which under the current system will just be a waste of tonnage.

If they really wanted to prevent poptarting from becoming the meta, they could have implemented a cone of fire system that is influenced by things like movement and heat scale. Such a system would minimize presicsion when poptarting, as it would affect the mech's accuracy on both the ascent and descent.

[Hit the Deck]

Mcgral18, on 11 June 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

So, even with a full complement (of non removable HoverJets), of the best variety, mind you...there is difficulty in getting from Theta to the city in Frozen City


And that pisses me off. You need to find one of the lower slopes (towards the left) to get up, and even then you need to face hump the wall to eventually get yourself up there, and HOPE you don't get stuck in that godawful bug, thereupon taking a fuckton of leg damage because of it. (3%, 108 quirks, 338 armour, 160 structure) 18 damage from that fall, an AC20s worth if it Crit (which it didn't armour still intact)
....

I'm not sure if I understand your complaint. The SCat can jump ~70m vertically which is enough to clear that wall in one jump most of the time. Most of the time because the top level is around 110-120m high near the edge and the lower level is around 40-50m high at the base of the wall. I just tried it to see what are you complaining about.

I agree that you can stuck on the wall which is annoying.

BTW, the Viper or even the CDA-3F can hop onto the upper level with little problem.

[Mcgral18]

Hit the Deck, on 11 June 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

I'm not sure if I understand your complaint. The SCat can jump ~70m vertically which is enough to clear that wall in one jump most of the time. Most of the time because the top level is around 110-120m high near the edge and the lower level is around 40-50m high at the base of the wall. I just tried it to see what are you complaining about.

I agree that you can stuck on the wall which is annoying.

BTW, the Viper or even the CDA-3F can hop onto the upper level with little problem.

The Nova cannot mount 8 HoverJets

That's on top of repeatedly being unable to get vertical height and just face humping the wall, only to lose 20 HP from the legs every time you try it

[Mystere]

Vanguard319, on 11 June 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

If they really wanted to prevent poptarting from becoming the meta ...

Maybe they should not prevent poptarting (and also jump brawling) from being effective in the first place. It is one of those times in which I think PGI should have ignored the whining. If PGI had not listened, maybe we would not have that 40-page "Nerf the Kodiak!" thread at all.

Edited by Mystere, 11 June 2016 - 10:16 PM.