53 replies to this topic

[Cyote13]

Adridos, on 06 December 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:

You're right, not having any impact on the universe would be really boring, having too much of it, however, will anger the people who like the lore. I have no idea, what are devs planning to do to not anger any of the sides.

True....I think the FedCom civil war could be mild compared to letting the players take control of everything

[Threat Doc]

Cyote13, on 06 December 2011 - 08:43 AM, said:

KW the differences in size is one of the reasons the Inner-Sphere, (and periphery) is such a great place to be a Mech Jock, as you noted in your second post.

True. However, since the Inner Sphere is not yet a living-breathing universe in MWO -I really hope one day it will be-, I'm thinking it's going to be necessary to have the most even forces possible in the game. My thoughts, extended, are that the devs could allow between one and three days immediately after a 'closed' release, of sorts, for all of us on these forums to get signed into the game, first, our allegiances handled (Davion for me, for example)and, once all of our number are signed up and begun in the game, they can open it for marketing and advertisement for everyone else who's not been paying attention, and they would fill the remaining required slots to meet each population benchmark. Let's face it, this would make it more possible, and plausible, for Liao to survive, hehe.

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Hopefully the conquest system will be balanced in ways that allowed Lio to survive as long as it did.

I'm thinking that's going to have to be something among the players who actually like Liao, like Metro and Adridos. They're going to have to think with great deviousness, such as the Liao name is associated with, to maintain what they have, where force-of-arms actually means little to them. I've never liked Houses Liao or Kurita, not because of their Asian origins, that's not a problem, but with Kurita, it's because I've read too many stories of them purporting to be honorable, only to do something in the dark that is completely dishonorable. Zero honor for them. Then, I don't like Liao because, as they've been written, they simply give me the *******. Armageddon Unlimited worked on a periphery contract for them once and, of course, got screwed, according to dice rolls and the influence of previous writings on me.

Cyote13, on 06 December 2011 - 09:16 AM, said:

well at least the canon starting point, if we can not change history, or at least only change it in very small ways it is going to be disappointing.

All of us want to be the reason why the St Ives compact stays independent, and the guy that stops the Clans on Luthien, or be the clanner that that does take Luthien. Ultimately we want our actions to mean something in the larger universe. Yes there is still plenty of places to do simple PvP like WoTs and such...but chalk them up to "training" exercises, but when we do the conquest fights I hope...HOPE, it means more than ok...now wait until that planet "really " got conquered.

It seems that there is a lot of real interest in players from every faction that each of them will be competitive.

I agree, it will be disappointing if we can't have some further effect on the universe, but...

Adridos, on 06 December 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:

You're right, not having any impact on the universe would be really boring, having too much of it, however, will anger the people who like the lore. I have no idea, what are devs planning to do to not anger any of the sides.

I tend to disagree with "...will anger the people who like the lore". The largest problem with the lore AFTER 3048 with a lot of TT vets is that the Clans came at all. However, if many of them are like me, read the novels and sourcebooks, then we got over it, as the general veteran community, by about 1996 and simply started to play with them. They had a face, they had a place, and they had a reason -we could argue until we're blue in the face about their colonization, growth, and production in the octagon worlds, but they were here- so we were going to deal with them or we were going to throw away our boxes, no choice; the better portion of us decided to deal. The Munchkins among us embraced the new 'Mechs, the new tech, and it didn't matter what the lore had to say, because BattleTech was no longer about the story when the Clans were first introduced in 1992 (almost exactly 20 years before the launch of MWO will be), though the stories came back with a vengeance by the time FASA closed its doors in 2001.

So, I don't think it's a matter of whether having too much of an effect on the universe would anger the people who LOVE the lore; in fact, if we were able to fight the Clans in PvE, initially, eventually swapping players into the Clans over time, dependent on the growth of the MWO community, and we stopped them, say, ABOVE the Tukkayyid Truce Line, I think a LOT of veterans, including me, would cheer. The one problem with that is, if they were stopped, or a real major event changed the future history (post-3048), it would begin falling to our hosts to develop the new history and, what we would have from that point forward, unless they were very keen on their development, would be the same as the previous games, simply a combat smorgasbord with no real substance beyond that.

[Kyll Long]

Hmmm ::Notes KW's name and description for future operations::

[Cyttorak]

The lore is fiction, and has it's own rules to follow. For one, having a group be the "underdog" is good for drama.
The same rules don't work for gaming because these limitations have real consequences that can't be gotten rid of by just writing them away.
If the devs are going to have/allow imbalanced faction sizes, then *something* has to be done to give the smaller factions an advantage in the meta-game, or at least give the larger factions handicaps so they don't roll over the little guys.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The real problem down the line is the Clans. The poll shows nearly 60% of those who took it will play Clan. Hopefully it won't translate to the same % in a years time, especiallty as he IS needs a numerical advantage. On the other hand the Clans won't have the advantage of surprise and the unknown.

[Threat Doc]

Kyll Long, on 06 December 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

Hmmm ::Notes KW's name and description for future operations::

Cyote13, on 06 December 2011 - 10:01 AM, said:

True....I think the FedCom civil war could be mild compared to letting the players take control of everything

What do you mean? The FedCom Civil War, as written, would be far more boring than allowing players to play it through? I agree, if that's what you meant, because I absolutely love how the FedCom Civil War is written, and would truly enjoy playing it through.

Cyttorak, on 06 December 2011 - 10:08 AM, said:

The lore is fiction, and has it's own rules to follow. For one, having a group be the "underdog" is good for drama.

The same rules don't work for gaming because these limitations have real consequences that can't be gotten rid of by just writing them away.
If the devs are going to have/allow imbalanced faction sizes, then *something* has to be done to give the smaller factions an advantage in the meta-game, or at least give the larger factions handicaps so they don't roll over the little guys.

I think one of House Liao's biggest advantages, and again this goes back to how the faction's players would act, is that the Capellan Confederation uses a lot of low-ball, low-intensity, sneaky, underhanded, back-alley alliances -go ahead and mark me up, again, Kyll, hehe- to get done what the larger states can do in the open. That's not actually a remark about the type of people who would be playing in House Liao -heck, I like Metro, Adridos, and Kyll-, not at all, but it is a reflection of how the House is written. Fortunate for them that, because of Romano Liao taking the throne in '36, and then again with her assassination and betrothal of Sun-Tzu to Isis Marik in '52, they have a good relationship with House Marik, because if the Federated Suns and Free World's League formed an alliance against the Confederation, they would only need to begin pushing on both sides, and House Liao would crumble like a biscuit in the sea.

[Threat Doc]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 06 December 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

The real problem down the line is the Clans. The poll shows nearly 60% of those who took it will play Clan. Hopefully it won't translate to the same % in a years time, especiallty as he IS needs a numerical advantage. On the other hand the Clans won't have the advantage of surprise and the unknown.

If the devs were only to allow one-third of the community to participate within the Clans, and Clan players could make applications to play, a player could go to bed one night with the population too low for them to get into the Clans, and wake up in their chosen Clan, all because the population grew by three more people. I think it would be the most fair means of getting the most even mixture possible, because of Clan Tech, if a system like this were implemented. After all, the armies of the Clans only do fill about one-third the bar the armies of the Inner Sphere contain, so it would be fair that only one-third of all players would be allowed to play Clans.

Now, the problem with that is what happens if/when the population actually shifts. If you have some very hardcore Clan players who sign up to play Clan, make their application, etc., and though they understand what's going on with how the population works, and they leave the game because they're an instant gratification kill-all player, that means the Clans would, eventually, over-balance the Inner Sphere, unless Clan players are, again, shifted back to Inner Sphere play, and then that would lose the whole ball of wax right there.

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I hope the devs are paying attention to this issue. I've seen other games collapse because too many players went into a single faction while leaving the others undermanned.

Yes, like every single league that's ever been built around MechWarrior. There's a huge imbalance, another house gets ***-rushed, game over, reset, two months later the same thing happens, and happens, and happens. It might be fun for some people to keep beating their heads against the collective wall, but that's why the league play AU has participated in the past has been limited; okay, one of several reasons, but a reason nonetheless.

[Haeso]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 06 December 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

The real problem down the line is the Clans. The poll shows nearly 60% of those who took it will play Clan. Hopefully it won't translate to the same % in a years time, especiallty as he IS needs a numerical advantage. On the other hand the Clans won't have the advantage of surprise and the unknown.

Clans come later, people who are established will not switch. The majority of players are not die-hard IS or Clan. If they can acquire clan tech as IS, most won't feel the impetus necessary to leave their current pilot/garage of 'Mechs behind to restart as a clansmen.

Secondly, IS does not need a numerical advantage necessarily, though I am certain it will have one. With Battle Value, it would simply mean a star or light/medium clan goes against a lance of Heavy/Assault IS, battle value is very flexible.

Kay Wolf, on 06 December 2011 - 10:02 AM, said:

True. However, since the Inner Sphere is not yet a living-breathing universe in MWO -I really hope one day it will be-, I'm thinking it's going to be necessary to have the most even forces possible in the game. My thoughts, extended, are that the devs could allow between one and three days immediately after a 'closed' release, of sorts, for all of us on these forums to get signed into the game, first, our allegiances handled (Davion for me, for example)and, once all of our number are signed up and begun in the game, they can open it for marketing and advertisement for everyone else who's not been paying attention, and they would fill the remaining required slots to meet each population benchmark. Let's face it, this would make it more possible, and plausible, for Liao to survive, hehe.

Have you ever played a game with multiple factions? No faction will die. If Davion kicks Liao's teeth in, FWR/Steiner aren't going to sit around, they're going to hit Davion to prevent them from taking over too much. I can count the number of times a capital on my DAoC server got sacked on one hand. No side ever got wiped out in Face of Mankind.

Edited by Haeso, 06 December 2011 - 11:15 AM.

[Adridos]

Kay Wolf, on 06 December 2011 - 10:02 AM, said:

Then, I don't like Liao because, as they've been written, they simply give me the *******. Armageddon Unlimited worked on a periphery contract for them once and, of course, got screwed, according to dice rolls and the influence of previous writings on me.

Why do you hate Liao? What was the reason of us attacking you? Sorry, but I haven't read any of the books and it got the better of me. Can you help me figuring it out? Thanks.

Kay Wolf, on 06 December 2011 - 10:40 AM, said:

I think one of House Liao's biggest advantages, and again this goes back to how the faction's players would act, is that the Capellan Confederation uses a lot of low-ball, low-intensity, sneaky, underhanded, back-alley alliances -go ahead and mark me up, again, Kyll, hehe- to get done what the larger states can do in the open.

I don't have problem with being sneaky, alliance type player. Problem is implementing something like that in the game.
Strategy game? OK, I will just try to get under protection of someone, fight the one everyone fights, so I won't have bad relationship with them, but in a game like Mechwarrior, how are we supposed to succed? We can't make aliances, we can't backstab anyone, etc.
There is only fighting and if the Kurita is allowed to make an invasion against us, how are we supposed to defend ourselves? We are strong, our mechs and technologies are OK, but we can't defend 24/7 as some houses 10x larger than us can.
THAT is the biggest question I have about the game since it was annouced.

[Haeso]

If the players controlled the houses like say, Face of Mankind, you could very easily have alliances and what not.

Not to mention whatever side starts to win in any conflict is going to become public enemy number one.

[Adridos]

Haeso, on 06 December 2011 - 11:24 AM, said:

Not to mention whatever side starts to win in any conflict is going to become public enemy number one.

That's pretty normal in strategy games. Noone likes to loose and letting someone grow too big is a suicide.
I doubt we will have that much control over it, though.

[Threat Doc]

Haeso, on 06 December 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

Clans come later, people who are established will not switch. The majority of players are not die-hard IS or Clan. If they can acquire clan tech as IS, most won't feel the impetus necessary to leave their current pilot/garage of 'Mechs behind to restart as a clansmen.

Though I would like to agree with you on this one, Haeso, I can't. I believe people are going to be devoted enough to what they know, and willing to start over in the Clans, they will, most assuredly, leave. There are quite a bunch of Clan players on here who couldn't give a rats-*** about the Inner Sphere and, since we don't know if we're each going to have stables of 'Mechs, or will have our 'Mech repatriated, or whatever our hosts plans are, at this point, it's impossible to put a definite yes or no on whether or not they would leave. I would be willing to bet that some of the Clan lovers will stay because they've found a new home for themselves, but many of the Clan lovers will go over to the Clans as quickly as they are opened for play. Besides, how quickly will a person be able to build up a stable of 'Mechs -if the devs are going that way- for themselves in less than a year of play, especially if the economy is done right?

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Secondly, IS does not need a numerical advantage necessarily, though I am certain it will have one. With Battle Value, it would simply mean a star or light/medium clan goes against a lance of Heavy/Assault IS, battle value is very flexible.

I can't agree with you here, either. YOU might not need a numerical advantage, dependent on how well you played in previous games and leagues, but there are going to be quite a lot of folks out there who WILL. I MAY be among them. My kill ratio in MechWarrior 2 was, roughly, 1:1, but that's because I was getting used to the game, the tactics, etc. My kill ratio went up to 2:1 in MechWarrior 3 because the game played like a close approximation, if not perfect, of BattleTech; I understood it far better, knew how to apply not only the tactics from my board game experience, but also from my MW2: Mercs experience, and I did well for myself. In MechWarrior 4, my kill ratio was well below 0:1, closer to 1:5, because MW4 is NOT related, in any way except by names, to BattleTech, it is a twitch-lovers dream, and I simply could not relate. If the devs stick to what they've said, and develop MWO to be as close to the tabletop without sacrificing fun, and it's not like MW4, I will do well enough, but there are many who will not.

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Have you ever played a game with multiple factions? No faction will die. If Davion kicks Liao's teeth in, FWR/Steiner aren't going to sit around, they're going to hit Davion to prevent them from taking over too much. I can count the number of times a capital on my DAoC server got sacked on one hand. No side ever got wiped out in Face of Mankind.

No, you're right, no faction ever died in any of the leagues I played in... they may have sat fallow for a little while, but someone always came to reboot them. Nonetheless, having balanced sides, at least as balanced in numbers as possible, would be better.

Adridos, on 06 December 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

Why do you hate Liao? What was the reason of us attacking you? Sorry, but I haven't read any of the books and it got the better of me. Can you help me figuring it out? Thanks.

Okay, perhaps hate was a strong word for me to use, but at least a serious dislike. In real-world terms, I can't fathom how they work, it's alien to me. In-game terms, I explained why, in so many words, in my previous post. For real-world players, unless they want to let arguments get out of hand, and I've been known to get out of hand with Cappies, too, I have no qualms with them, at all. In AUs history, I have it written that we took a contract with Liao to scrub the periphery of pirates. We got stranded by them and had to contract, for a lot of cash, for someone with DropShips and a JumpShip, to come and get us, and the Cappies neither paid for it, nor were they made to pay by the MRBC. So, my only serious dislike for Capellans comes from the history we have with them, and I would likely never contract with them again in the BattleTech game universe.

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...and if the Kurita is allowed to make an invasion against us...

If Kurita's invading Liao, then we have far larger problems than what we've been discussing, because that means Kurita has cut out the middle of the Successor States, wiped out the St. Ives Compact, and Houses Davion, Steiner, and Marik have all lost worlds in great numbers to Kurita. Liao would likely take some advantage of that and get back some worlds for themselves, but there would be large problems, indeed.

[Cyttorak]

Kind of an interesting point here: because of the canon map in 3050, most factions will be attacking their immediate neighbors. I can live with that, but I wonder what the devs will do to make CC vs DC, FS vs LC, FWL vs DC/FS etc. games possible.

[Threat Doc]

That's actually a good question, to which I have no answer or hypothesis.

[Haeso]

Kay Wolf, on 06 December 2011 - 12:45 PM, said:

Though I would like to agree with you on this one, Haeso, I can't. I believe people are going to be devoted enough to what they know, and willing to start over in the Clans, they will, most assuredly, leave. There are quite a bunch of Clan players on here who couldn't give a rats-*** about the Inner Sphere and, since we don't know if we're each going to have stables of 'Mechs, or will have our 'Mech repatriated, or whatever our hosts plans are, at this point, it's impossible to put a definite yes or no on whether or not they would leave. I would be willing to bet that some of the Clan lovers will stay because they've found a new home for themselves, but many of the Clan lovers will go over to the Clans as quickly as they are opened for play. Besides, how quickly will a person be able to build up a stable of 'Mechs -if the devs are going that way- for themselves in less than a year of play, especially if the economy is done right?

6-10 months until the clans invade from a summer launch window. No matter how quickly or slowly you build up 'Mechs and pilots - the majority will not throw all of that invested time away. Of course both sides have staunch supporters that will play what they want at earliest possibility, I said as much myself. But there's no way that's the majority. The poll shows a 40-60 split, no? You really think even half of the people who prefer clans are going to abandon 6+ months of progress? I'm more worried that the clans won't have enough people.

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I can't agree with you here, either. YOU might not need a numerical advantage, dependent on how well you played in previous games and leagues, but there are going to be quite a lot of folks out there who WILL. I MAY be among them. My kill ratio in MechWarrior 2 was, roughly, 1:1, but that's because I was getting used to the game, the tactics, etc. My kill ratio went up to 2:1 in MechWarrior 3 because the game played like a close approximation, if not perfect, of BattleTech; I understood it far better, knew how to apply not only the tactics from my board game experience, but also from my MW2: Mercs experience, and I did well for myself. In MechWarrior 4, my kill ratio was well below 0:1, closer to 1:5, because MW4 is NOT related, in any way except by names, to BattleTech, it is a twitch-lovers dream, and I simply could not relate. If the devs stick to what they've said, and develop MWO to be as close to the tabletop without sacrificing fun, and it's not like MW4, I will do well enough, but there are many who will not.

I'm not talking about player ability, it's not about how good you or I am. It's about battle value. 'Mechs are by their very nature not created equal. A puma prime with 2 ERPPCs costs about the same as an atlas in Battle Value because it's a Clan Chassis/engine with DHS and ERPPCs.

I still stand by that Inner Sphere will have more, but even if by some craziness more than half of the people playing the game willingly throw away 6+ months of time invested, battle value can fix it.

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No, you're right, no faction ever died in any of the leagues I played in... they may have sat fallow for a little while, but someone always came to reboot them. Nonetheless, having balanced sides, at least as balanced in numbers as possible, would be better.

I disagree strongly, an ebb and flow with sides rising and falling, sides working together and then backstabbing one another, is far more interesting.

[KitLightning]

Kay Wolf, on 06 December 2011 - 01:24 PM, said:

That's actually a good question, to which I have no answer or hypothesis.

*scribbles in notebook* "Kay Wolf is out of answers - the world is at its end, it must be"

[Kyll Long]

Kay Wolf, on 06 December 2011 - 10:40 AM, said:

I think one of House Liao's biggest advantages, and again this goes back to how the faction's players would act, is that the Capellan Confederation uses a lot of low-ball, low-intensity, sneaky, underhanded, back-alley alliances -go ahead and mark me up, again, Kyll, hehe- to get done what the larger states can do in the open. That's not actually a remark about the type of people who would be playing in House Liao -heck, I like Metro, Adridos, and Kyll-, not at all, but it is a reflection of how the House is written. Fortunate for them that, because of Romano Liao taking the throne in '36, and then again with her assassination and betrothal of Sun-Tzu to Isis Marik in '52, they have a good relationship with House Marik, because if the Federated Suns and Free World's League formed an alliance against the Confederation, they would only need to begin pushing on both sides, and House Liao would crumble like a biscuit in the sea.

Oh here I took THAT part as a compliment

[MogCarns]

I believe people are taking a more simplistic view of this than they should.

A- No where does it say that you will get to choose what world you are fighting for. We will likely be unable to "Gang Up" on Liao. Instead, one battle may caount against a Liao world, another against Kurita, and a third against a second Kurita world. Given that this win will likely count as 1 of a needed ~5000, and with Kurita and Liao wins subtracting from that total, planets will change hands, but nearly with the swiftness that the old league rules "one win-one planet" allowed. We are unlikely to see anything on the scale of the 4th Succession War.

B- Where are small factions being boned? Larger factions have a higher gross number of idiots, leading to larger number of losses to offset their larger numbers of wins. The games are not going to be set 120 vrs 17. The smaller factions will simply have a larger percentage of their games played by the same people. The larger faction will have a percentage of their games routed against another faction.

C- Clan tech is not nearly as overpowered as it was portrayed in the early novels. The major issue was that for reasons never really officially explained, the IS was still using 3025 tech despite the fact that upgraded gear was available for nearly thirty years. I have many scenario sourcebooks set in the late 3020s and early 3030s that made use of varying levels of tech, from new mechs to refits. Some of these are fairly elite units, but that still leaves some 15 to 20 years of catch up that was never done... including other elite units. Hell, the Marlette CMM has upgraded tech in 3044, but the 12th Donegal of Prince Victor fame (and to note, Victor/Galen themselves) are riding in 3025s come 3050. The primary issue was that those twenty years never really existed... In reality we "jumped" from the end of the 4th to the beginning of the clans with one "Twenty Year Update" sourcebook. We went from garrisoning a planet with a lance to needing a regiment overnight, and no one gave the first thought to where all those Mech suddenly came from, or why they were all built with Obsolete tech. It just wasn't THAT rare.

D- Even in the tabletop where you are moving at a slow pace and precisely calculate each move, I (and other people) have beaten 100 ton clan mechs in 55ton IS mechs one on one in tournements countless times. Even with Equal pilots. The key is to abuse the Medium Laser's damage to heat/weight ratio, but that is neither here nor there. What is here is that Clan tech, in a live, realtime environment, does not offer that many advantages. It is extremely difficult to make use of the extended range, unless the map is just heavily in your favor. Given little to no time to discuss targeting, the difference is one volley at best, and most mechwarriors quickly learn where not to step. Besides, matchmaking wille ven things up fairly easily. You will likely have, say, 15 on 15, where the IS side has all heavies and a few Mediums, and the Clans will have a Gargoyle, 3 heavies, 6 mediums, and 5 lights.








The biggest issue I am worried about is making sure one side is all one faction. If it is a mix of all 5 factions on both sides, I will not be happy.

[Haeso]

MogCarns, on 06 December 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:

I believe people are taking a more simplistic view of this than they should.

A- No where does it say that you will get to choose what world you are fighting for. We will likely be unable to "Gang Up" on Liao. Instead, one battle may caount against a Liao world, another against Kurita, and a third against a second Kurita world. Given that this win will likely count as 1 of a needed ~5000, and with Kurita and Liao wins subtracting from that total, planets will change hands, but nearly with the swiftness that the old league rules "one win-one planet" allowed. We are unlikely to see anything on the scale of the 4th Succession War.

If the players aren't deciding what faction they're fighting against, that's going to detract a ton of the fun from the game for many of us, and it's going to make the universe feel fake as well. I should certainly hope we can choose what faction if not what planets to attack.

[Threat Doc]

Haeso, on 06 December 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

The poll shows a 40-60 split, no? You really think even half of the people who prefer clans are going to abandon 6+ months of progress?

Yes, I absolutely do. I believe the devs are going in the right direction, I believe they've already thought of these things, but I still believe that Clanner players will skip, and I believe the devs may already understand this, and will allow players to take their stables with them.

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I still stand by that Inner Sphere will have more, but even if by some craziness more than half of the people playing the game willingly throw away 6+ months of time invested, battle value can fix it.

Agreed.

KitLightning, on 06 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

*scribbles in notebook* "Kay Wolf is out of answers - the world is at its end, it must be"

LOL... it was bound to happen... sorry about the apocalypse, guys, LOL.

Haeso, on 06 December 2011 - 05:49 PM, said:

If the players aren't deciding what faction they're fighting against, that's going to detract a ton of the fun from the game for many of us, and it's going to make the universe feel fake as well. I should certainly hope we can choose what faction if not what planets to attack.

I don't believe that will be a problem in the least. We'll be able to choose which House we'll get to join.