115 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Nightmare1, on 24 January 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

Time to unlock Clan chassis and make them fully customizable and to start giving some chassis, like the Summoner, better quirks.

Nightmare1, on 24 January 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

That, with the lack of customization afforded by the Clans, turned me off to them a long time back.

lol. Clans DO NOT NEED any more freedom. The best Clan mechs are the best mechs in the game and the IS had nothing to stand up until quirks made the IS too strong. All we need to do is tone back all of these ridiculous and utterly ******** IS quirks. I would say that roughly 50% of them are completely superfluous and add no value to the game and do nothing but muddy the balance rather than improve it. But if you want to leave IS quirks as they are and give clans more customisation?That's just stupid. Band-aide on top of band-aide on top of band-aide stupid.

[Nightmare1]

Tarogato, on 24 January 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

lol. Clans DO NOT NEED any more freedom. The best Clan mechs are the best mechs in the game and the IS had nothing to stand up until quirks made the IS too strong. All we need to do is tone back all of these ridiculous and utterly ******** IS quirks. I would say that roughly 50% of them are completely superfluous and add no value to the game and do nothing but muddy the balance rather than improve it. But if you want to leave IS quirks as they are and give clans more customisation?That's just stupid. Band-aide on top of band-aide on top of band-aide stupid.

Optimally, I would like to see a timeskip and IS OmniMechs with both IS and Clan OmniMech chassis fully unlocked and a good deal more weapon options. Instead of trying to bend Mechs and weapons to "balance" out other Mechs and weapons, just pick a time period in the BT Universe where stuff was already reasonably balanced and just use that.

As an IS pilot, I'm not afraid of unlocked Clan Chassis. I smoke them now and will still be able to smoke them once their engines are unlocked. What's stupid is accepting an inferior product. Clan chassis weren't locked down in MW4. There's no reason to lock them down now, particularly when it's obvious that the IS is significantly stronger and especially when you pay so much more for the Mechs. Who wants to pay more money for less product?

I pre-ordered Wave I back when it was announced. To this day, only about three or four Mechs are Mastered. Of the rest, I haven't touched my Warhawks and the rest are either Un-Elited or just barely Elited. They just weren't worth running when the IS was so much stronger. As time progressed, it's just gotten worse. I have run Timber Wolves and have not been impressed. They're so limited in that all you can really run is the stupid laser vomit meta. Clan ballistics are a joke, and their LRMs aren't as effective as the IS. SRM hit reg is broken, as is PPC's. I'd rather have an unlocked chassis so that I can build something that fits my style, instead of having PGI try to force me to fight in a different style that I don't like.

Personally, I have never had any problem killing Clan Mechs. The balance just keeps getting worse and, for a Lore person like me, it's deplorable. As someone who appreciates constructing and deconstructing my Mechs about as much as I do running them, having PGI lock down the chassis is a sin.

So, yeah, unlock them Mechs. What's to be afraid of? It's just a game dude; let's play with all the pieces.

[Gas Guzzler]

Aresye, on 24 January 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

The problem with the EXE, and I'd say now a problem with Clan mechs overall, is there's always an overquirked IS mech that is better suited and quirked for any practically any play style.

For example, the EXE can in fact poke nicely with 3 cLPLs, but why take that over a Banshee?

I think the main reason we didn't use EXEs on Canyon was that EXEs never had enough time to really be deemed, "comp worthy." In hindsight, the MASC may have helped enough in the poke game that it would have been a better option than the DWF, but I don't think it would have been enough to alter the results in any significant way.

But.. I really want to know why cERLL were used. Everyone knows they are bad, and there is no way you can trade with QKDs, STKs, or BLRs with cERLL. Don't you think it would have been closer if you tried to force the engagement range to ~500 meters instead of trying to trade with ERs? I'm not saying it would have changed the outcome, but I think you would have been able to drop a few more IS mechs and make it closer.

[Davegt27]

Well the clan mechs got hit with a heat and mobility nerf

But I hate getting into a clan vs IS because I am really an IS type at heart

I do feel one of the things that makes the game fun is the ability to fire your weapons, that means I am against heat nerfs
And more in favor durability buffs

Assaults both IS and Clan need to be the most durable sobs on the battlefield
Those EXEs went down quick and I mean quick

So I would go at the issue on a by class basis
I don’t think trying to balance a light against an assault is a good idea

[Tarogato]

Nightmare1, on 24 January 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

As an IS pilot, I'm not afraid of unlocked Clan Chassis. I smoke them now and will still be able to smoke them once their engines are unlocked.

Yes, you're smoking them because IS is significantly overquirked. Again, to make Clans stronger again doesn't mean "BUFF CLANS!" ... we don't need to buff Clans and give them more flexibility. All we need to do is nerf IS because right now IS is overquirked.

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What's stupid is accepting an inferior product. Clan chassis weren't locked down in MW4.

I love how your example of a game to go by was one of the games that broke almost all the rules of mech construction and completely wrecked the weapons stats. MW4 is a terrible example of a game incorporating a mechlab. The only redeeming feature it added was the sized hardpoints system, and even then it gave mechs all the wrong hardpoints.

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There's no reason to lock them down now, particularly when it's obvious that the IS is significantly stronger

... stronger because QUIRKS. Nerf IS quirks. Do you *not* remember how OP Clans were when they were first released? Holy crap, dude. Yeah, sure, I could kill them too, we all could. But that doesn't change the fact that they were leaps and bounds better than IS.

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They just weren't worth running when the IS was so much stronger. As time progressed, it's just gotten worse.

When was that? The IS was never stronger until the rebalance less than two months ago.

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I have run Timber Wolves and have not been impressed. They're so limited in that all you can really run is the stupid laser vomit meta. Clan ballistics are a joke, and their LRMs aren't as effective as the IS. SRM hit reg is broken, as is PPC's. I'd rather have an unlocked chassis so that I can build something that fits my style, instead of having PGI try to force me to fight in a different style that I don't like.

lolwut... the Timberwolf doesn't have enough build variety for you? Are you on crack, mate? It's one of the most versatile mechs in the game and it has plenty of tonnage to make just about every kind of build work.

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The balance just keeps getting worse and, for a Lore person like me, it's deplorable. As someone who appreciates constructing and deconstructing my Mechs about as much as I do running them, having PGI lock down the chassis is a sin.

As a lore person, you should understand the construction rules for omnimechs. Locked engines, locked chassis, locked armour, locked heatsinks, locked jumpjets... everything was set in stone except for the omnipods. Oh wait... because you're a lore person, you just want Clans to be OP like they were in TT and because paid big bucks expecting them to be OP. I think I understand now.

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So, yeah, unlock them Mechs. What's to be afraid of? It's just a game dude; let's play with all the pieces.

What I'm afraid of is making all the mechs in the game redundant. As you grant more freedom to customise chassis, you take away more of the defining features that differentiate chassis. What you seem to want is for all mechs to be identical in terms of construction, which is ... really friggin' boring.

Edited by Tarogato, 24 January 2016 - 04:50 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Tarogato, on 24 January 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Inane stuffs

Most of that isn't worth replying to, but there are two points I'd like to make:

1) I played Clans for two or three months after their release and then went back to the IS, realizing very quickly that the IS was the better faction. I was piloting TDRs with XL engines against Clanners waaaaay before Quirks were even a thought, and winning consistently. At no point, have I ever considered the Clans to be OP.


2) Clans are very limited right now because of how locked down they are. Each chassis only has a couple of viable builds, chiefly constituted of swapping most of the Omnipods out for the energy dense ones. Case in point, look at the Summoner. It can do about five builds. Listed:

Gauss + PPC (No longer viable in light of recent Gauss nerf)
LRMs (Blah)
SRMs (Bad hit-reg)
Dual PPCs (Hot, bad hit-reg)
All energy (MLs and LPLs - overdone)

So, really, it has one good build and four so-so builds that are barely playable. This is typical of most of the Clan Mechs. You have one good build (two if you're lucky), a couple of barely playable ones, and that's it. Compared to the bevy of builds that the IS can field, it's somewhat embarrassing. Omnis are supposed to have the most customization, and instead, they are the most restrictive.

I mean, really, c'mon. The IS may have hard-coded hardpoints, but you can do so much more with them because of slots and engine customization. Your inane claim that unlocking the chassis will restrict choice is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How can adding more options make customization more limited???

If I want to put a small engine in my Nova and run an AC/20, why should I not be allowed to do so? If I want to put a big engine in my ultra-fragile Kit Fox, why should I be prohibited? Unlocking chassis will help far more than it can hurt.

Anyways, 'nuff of that. I remember you now from before. You're kind of a waste of time and forum space. All you need to know are the following:

1) IS has been better, in terms of gameplay at least, since day one.

2) For a while now, the IS has been better in terms of combat ability too. I've been saying this, as have others, and we are correct.

3) There is no sane reason to lock up the Clan OmniMechs as the only Mechs that cannot be fully customized, particularly when they should be the ones with the most customization.

4) MW4 was a blast. If you're a tryhard meta guy, then chill; remember that you're a minority here and that PGI should focus on making the game fun. MW4 did many things well, chief of which was that it was fun to play. PGI should seek to emulate that and quit trying to make this into an e-sport that caters to tryhards that don't know how to relax and have fun.

Adios.

[Onimusha shin]

I'd have to ask you thou Taro, what is it about the customisability of Clan mechs that scares you about upsetting the balance?

We know that the top tier Clan mechs already have endo and ferro. I would say locking engine sizes in should be a must. But giving the Clams (SMN, IFR, MLX) both quirks and more free tonnage to work with, is it a bad thing?

Which Clam mechs would become OP in your opinion if they got endo and ferro customisation? Which Clam mechs would supercede the unquirked IS mechs when they can remove JJs, BAP, MASC?

Many of the Clams suffer in MWO because they have low arm mounts which is what favoured the Clans in lore because it improved their dueling capabilities. However, in MWO, peeking/trading ability is a more favourable trait than dueling.

Even for the top tier Clan mechs, I believe only the ACH (2 high mounts), SCR (3 high mounts), HBR (many high mounts), EBJ (3 high mounts, too high above cockpit level though) and TBR (3 high mounts) have the high mount advantages. The rest hardly count and that's why this event displayed that in a trading match, Clans have no good assaults to trade with.



And you know what's more boring than every mech being customisable (if that's even a objective fact)? The fact that Clans are limited to mostly lasers and gauss. UACs are unreliable in times of need (you won't see them often in comp play), SRMs need you to close the distance, LRMs are easily countered by top tier players.

I don't disagree with you when you say IS quirks are overdone but to say that the trash Clam mechs don't need that kind of help (endo/ferro customisation) is being ignorant.

And last one is directed at you Gas: "most of the people complaining about Clan mechs sucking are bad players" Really? Anecdotal opinions are useless in this day and age. If PGI can prove with stats that the community stats averages for MLX, IFR, SMN, are comparable to those for say the HBR, GAR, WHK, then I'd shut my trap.

Until then, I'd continue to doubt that two Protons facing each other would be able to make a SMN consistently work over a GAR, TBR, EBJ, HBR or even a SCR. Personal opinion of course.

And MLX has only the ACH and IFR to compete with in the speed/agility class. Pretty sure we know how likely the ACH would trash the other 2 chassis.

[Gas Guzzler]

Onimusha shin, on 24 January 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

And last one is directed at you Gas: "most of the people complaining about Clan mechs sucking are bad players" Really? Anecdotal opinions are useless in this day and age. If PGI can prove with stats that the community stats averages for MLX, IFR, SMN, are comparable to those for say the HBR, GAR, WHK, then I'd shut my trap.

Until then, I'd continue to doubt that two Protons facing each other would be able to make a SMN consistently work over a GAR, TBR, EBJ, HBR or even a SCR. Personal opinion of course.

And MLX has only the ACH and IFR to compete with in the speed/agility class. Pretty sure we know how likely the ACH would trash the other 2 chassis.

Really? So people who say Clan mechs are SO BAD that they are unplayable are skilled players that know what they are talking about?

I'm not talking about the crappy Clan mechs. I'm talking about the people who can't handle using TBR/EBJ/HBR because they suck so bad compared to QKDs. That **** is B.S.

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

I'm not talking about the crappy Clan mechs. I'm talking about the people who can't handle using TBR/EBJ/HBR because they suck so bad compared to QKDs. That **** is B.S.

Then what about the people who used them, compared them to their IS counterparts, and simply decided that the IS Mechs were better?

I mean, I'm tanking against Timbies with an XL ENF-4R and winning right now. Even got a vid on my YouTube Channel. Sure, I can break the 1,000 damage mark with a Timby, but it's even easier to do it with an IS Mech.

I know that it's important for you to feel like your Clan Mechs are better because of the amount of money you've spent on them, but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't. I'm in the same boat as you; I want to believe. However, I'm also a realist.

I took two Timbies at the same time with a SHD and beat them. Got the vid to prove it. Those Timbies had decent pilots too; they weren't complete scrubs.

The bottomline, is that the IS is simply better. Yeah, the Arctic Cheetah may be a good light, but I can consistently win against them with my FS9s and Panthers. When you see IS Mechs winning consistently against Clan Mechs, then that must force you to call into question the balance; you can't just bury your head and ignore it.

@shin: I agree. The really bad Clan chassis really need help, and unlocking the chassis won't do anything to break the game. Clans only have about four, maybe five good chassis. Unlocking all the chassis just makes the rest of the Clan Mechs useful. The handful of good ones might get a little better, but probably won't; I've a feeling that they're pretty well optimized as they are, and don't see the meta builds changing much. This would mainly help the non-meta players such as myself.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 24 January 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

Then what about the people who used them, compared them to their IS counterparts, and simply decided that the IS Mechs were better?

I mean, I'm tanking against Timbies with an XL ENF-4R and winning right now. Even got a vid on my YouTube Channel. Sure, I can break the 1,000 damage mark with a Timby, but it's even easier to do it with an IS Mech.

I know that it's important for you to feel like your Clan Mechs are better because of the amount of money you've spent on them, but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't. I'm in the same boat as you; I want to believe. However, I'm also a realist.

I took two Timbies at the same time with a SHD and beat them. Got the vid to prove it. Those Timbies had decent pilots too; they weren't complete scrubs.

The bottomline, is that the IS is simply better. Yeah, the Arctic Cheetah may be a good light, but I can consistently win against them with my FS9s and Panthers. When you see IS Mechs winning consistently against Clan Mechs, then that must force you to call into question the balance; you can't just bury your head and ignore it.

@shin: I agree. The really bad Clan chassis really need help, and unlocking the chassis won't do anything to break the game. Clans only have about four, maybe five good chassis. Unlocking all the chassis just makes the rest of the Clan Mechs useful. The handful of good ones might get a little better, but probably won't; I've a feeling that they're pretty well optimized as they are, and don't see the meta builds changing much. This would mainly help the non-meta players such as myself.

Hey, they are marginally better. But the sensationalized "We have no chance" is the result of bad play.

[Onimusha shin]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

Really? So people who say Clan mechs are SO BAD that they are unplayable are skilled players that know what they are talking about?

I'm not talking about the crappy Clan mechs. I'm talking about the people who can't handle using TBR/EBJ/HBR because they suck so bad compared to QKDs. That **** is B.S.

Dude, I never realized we should give attention to the BADS! That's PGI's job! We're concerned about top-level play. I also want to see the VTR, AWS, VND be more viable to only seeing BJ, QKD, TDR, BLR, STK on the battlefield.

And I'm pretty sure Nightmare1 isn't saying that TBRs are unplayable. He's one of the competent players I know from a contest. He's saying that TBRs don't have an edge over some IS mechs, especially the QKD since you referenced them. I can't say he's entirely wrong, given how laser burn durations are tilted towards IS than to Clans. And the TBR has negative duration quirks if you don't build them right.

From my POV, I've run some numbers and you might be surprised, at a top tier comp play level like this event, IS will outright win Clans, even if the Clans brought LPLs, their best laser weapon for comp play.

[Gas Guzzler]

Onimusha shin, on 24 January 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

Dude, I never realized we should give attention to the BADS! That's PGI's job! We're concerned about top-level play. I also want to see the VTR, AWS, VND be more viable to only seeing BJ, QKD, TDR, BLR, STK on the battlefield.

And I'm pretty sure Nightmare1 isn't saying that TBRs are unplayable. He's one of the competent players I know from a contest. He's saying that TBRs don't have an edge over some IS mechs, especially the QKD since you referenced them. I can't say he's entirely wrong, given how laser burn durations are tilted towards IS than to Clans. And the TBR has negative duration quirks if you don't build them right.

From my POV, I've run some numbers and you might be surprised, at a top tier comp play level like this event, IS will outright win Clans, even if the Clans brought LPLs, their best laser weapon for comp play.

I agree.

But there are a few people on this forum who are ridiculous about it.

[pwnface]

Nightmare1, on 24 January 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

I took two Timbies at the same time with a SHD and beat them. Got the vid to prove it. Those Timbies had decent pilots too; they weren't complete scrubs.

If you are winning 1v2 in a SHD against 2 TBR then they ARE complete scrubs. Saying they aren't to make yourself feel good about yourself doesn't mean it's true.

[pwnface]

Onimusha shin, on 24 January 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

From my POV, I've run some numbers and you might be surprised, at a top tier comp play level like this event, IS will outright win Clans, even if the Clans brought LPLs, their best laser weapon for comp play.

This might be true, but that isn't what was tested during this event. I'd certainly like to see C-LPLs in a more accurate test.

Edited by pwnface, 25 January 2016 - 12:17 AM.

[B0oN]

Wait...so the possibly best players this game has to offer took suboptimal builds ( points finger straight at C-ERL) for this quite important test ?

What a letdown, guys ...

[Leone]

Aresye, on 24 January 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

The problem with the EXE, and I'd say now a problem with Clan mechs overall, is there's always an overquirked IS mech that is better suited and quirked for any practically any play style.

Oh Excellent! Since my unit switched I've been feeling a bit nostalgic. Mind pointing out which IS mech I can use to emulate my NVA-S?

~Leone

Edited by Leone, 25 January 2016 - 02:52 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Try the Stalker... it has quite a few energy hardpoints.
Alternatively you can strap half a Hunchie 4P to another Hunchie 4P adn shove a few jumpjets up its ar... rear centre torso.

[Nightmare1]

Onimusha shin, on 24 January 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

Dude, I never realized we should give attention to the BADS! That's PGI's job! We're concerned about top-level play. I also want to see the VTR, AWS, VND be more viable to only seeing BJ, QKD, TDR, BLR, STK on the battlefield.

And I'm pretty sure Nightmare1 isn't saying that TBRs are unplayable. He's one of the competent players I know from a contest. He's saying that TBRs don't have an edge over some IS mechs, especially the QKD since you referenced them. I can't say he's entirely wrong, given how laser burn durations are tilted towards IS than to Clans. And the TBR has negative duration quirks if you don't build them right.

From my POV, I've run some numbers and you might be surprised, at a top tier comp play level like this event, IS will outright win Clans, even if the Clans brought LPLs, their best laser weapon for comp play.

Thanks shin!

To be honest, I wasn't trying to compare the Timby to the QKD or any other particular Mech. I was just making generalized comparisons. A lot of my favorite Mechs are non meta, but are also good Timby killers because of the Clan's long burn duration. They can't shield effectively. Also, because of the higher degree of customization afforded me by my IS Mechs, I also have faster and more nimble machines. Lastly, even one of my "hot" builds is still cooler than a typical Timber.

That's what I mean when I say that the IS has an advantage, and has had one for a while now. It's not about damage output. If it was, then The Empire would have beaten the Rebels with that Death Star. *Wink* It's all about your ability to pilot the Mech in a way that best suits your play style. The Clans are very limiting in that they only allow one or two types of play styles. The IS are far more liberating in that you can do whatever you want with your Mechs. That is why the IS is better than the Clans.

Personally, I will take my QKDs, ENFs, HBKs, TDRs, FS9s, PNTs, CN9s, CTFs, VTRs and BLRs over any Clan Mechs any day. I do this because I can consistently beat any Clan Mech I fight in a 1v1, and sometimes even 2v1 scenario. The only Clan Mech that does worry me is the Arctic Cheetah, but there are ways of dealing with them.

Adding to what shin says, I'm not saying that Clan Mechs are complete trash. I do recognize the value of some of them like the Cheetah, Timby, Dire, and SCR. I'm just saying that, placing them into the scale of ability and preference, the axis tilts heavily in favor of the IS. Unlocking the chassis would go a long way towards making the Clan Mechs as fun as their IS counterparts, as well as letting them be more effective to help balance the scales.

That's really all I'm trying to say here.

pwnface, on 24 January 2016 - 11:57 PM, said:

If you are winning 1v2 in a SHD against 2 TBR then they ARE complete scrubs. Saying they aren't to make yourself feel good about yourself doesn't mean it's true.

They were good pilots, but I did have the terrain advantage and it was a brawl. Timbies aren't the best at brawling; they don't like to be crowded. They were slightly damaged (Both 90% or greater in health) and I was fresh. I was able to use my agility and the terrain to split them up and take them one at a time.

Also, that SHD of mine is a true terror. Hits like a Mack Truck and is reasonably cool running.

As for trying to feel good about myself, there's no need. I'm competent enough that I don't need that ego boost. That being said, if it makes you feel better when you disparage me so, then I feel sorry for you.

[TheSilken]

Rad Hanzo, on 25 January 2016 - 01:25 AM, said:

Wait...so the possibly best players this game has to offer took suboptimal builds ( points finger straight at C-ERL) for this quite important test ?

What a letdown, guys ...

C-LPL would have been worse since you can't trade at 900+ meters with them you need the C-ERLL. And trying to close on a firing line of ERLL with LPLs would have netted the same result since not only do the IS get to reach out and hit you before you can effectively fire back but also they can extend the amount of time it takes for you to reach them due to the canyons on Canyon Network and the large area to cover on Tourmaline, and then even if you do reach them they run just as cool as you do, have the damage advantage, and have the structure quirks to top it off. C-LPL would have been the inferior weapon choice for those engagements. Now on Frozen City Night they would be overall better but at that point you should be taking more brawly type weapons due to the way the spawns were done.

[Volts]

I'm not sure I accept that there aren't avenues in the terrain to mitigate sniping (lets ignore alpine, maybe parts of tourmaline).

You need to close to what, 650m for cLPL?