482 replies to this topic

[Matthew Ace]

• Rather than boost to velocity, the actual projectile size needs to be increased to be representative of its graphics; I can't count the number of times where visually, the PPCs should have hit, but instead glanced past the 'Mech. I strongly believe this is possible because back in closed beta, they made adjustments to such variables for Autocannons.
  
  • If we really really must boost velocity (especially if the above is not doable), some velocity boost as an alternative is alright; think somewhere around 1300-1400 m/s for both IS and Clan ER PPC. Leave it at that; its speed should be such that it's slightly easier to use than now, BUT not to the point where little leading is required at max optimal range.

Assuming projectile size is fixed and velocity is little changed, if any, something I think would be interesting and I'd like to give a spin is this (bearing in mind the weapon needs to be kept at high-risk high-reward and to prevent the PPC meta from happening again):

• IS PPC - Keep heat at 10, return the scaling damage at minimum range (New mechanics for a minimum range is fine too). Further boost to optimal range from 540M to 600M optional. For maximum effect, I would even boost the damage to 12, but make cooldown 6 sec (5 if that is too long). The longer cooldown also makes for easier handling of heat. (At 6 sec cooldown - HPS: 1.67, DPS: 2.00 / At 5 sec cooldown - HPS 2.00, DPS 2.40 compared to current HPS: 2.5, DPS 2.5)
  
• IS ER PPC - Reduced heat to 13.5, raise damage to 12. Increase cooldown to the same value as mentioned in IS PPC.(At 6 sec cooldown - HPS: 2.25, DPS: 2.00 / At 5 sec cooldown - HPS 2.70, DPS 2.40 compared to current HPS: 3.75, DPS 2.5). Throw velocity a bone and bump up to 1300 if that's not enough.
  
• Clan ER PPC - Changed to 14 pinpoint damage, BUT, heat increased to 16, cooldown increased to 7 sec if IS counterparts are pegged at 6 sec (6 sec if IS counterparts gets 5 sec cooldown). (At 7 sec cooldown - HPS 2.28, DPS: 2.00 / At 6 sec cooldown - HPS 2.67, DPS 2.33). Throw velocity a bone and bump up to 1300 if that's not enough.

Eldagore, on 18 December 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

With some fundamentals prefaced in my last post, I will move to IS PPC's

PPC: Not really all that bad, but it feels in the current game to be a mid range weapon- maybe even closer range then most of the AC's and for sure LRM's. It has what, 450M range?

540M. Its range is 540M.

[shopsmart]

I am a new comer to this game as of 9 months now. Never really used ppcs till I jumped in my marauders. Love PPCs for what they are. You can fire off and move. Lasers require face time. Only comments I have are I don't want them to change much like some were proposing a charge time.

PPC The mimimum kills them. Heat seems fine. Adjust the minimum which kills the weapon and you might see more use. Clan minimum scaling could fix this or just remove it.

ERPPC. HOT HOT HOT. Jesus its hot. Even with an equivilant number of original game heat sink amounts, this thing is hot. I am talking about 2 here. The slightly less heat with is a good idea.

cERPPC. No suggestions. Only Direwolf watching out as others have said. I missed that meta.

Overall speed increase just slightly might be nice. That way there is some guess work to aiming at a moving target and not a complete sniper weapon. The other adjustment is the bolts hitting anything small causes their hitting. That gets annoying.

[Ace367]

I'm an avid user of both IS PPCs and Clan ERPPCs. I also have been using IS PPCs for a very long time prior to this latest change to all PPCs.

At this point, I would only use IS PPCs when there are favourable quirks on the mech, such as those on the Awesome, where there is a reduction of heat generation. I think the projectile speed is pretty much fine as it is since it is dealing 10 pinpoint damage. That being so, my opinion on IS PPCs is to only reduce its heat to 9 , and remove the PPC heat generation quirks for mechs that have them.

For IS ERPPCs, I hardly use them as they are currently too hot. I don't think the 15 heat generated is worth the range and projectile speed increase, even with heat reduction quirks. Perhaps a reduction of heat to 12 would be good.

Lastly for Clan ERPPCs, I think its fine that they do splash damage, otherwise they would be too good compared to IS ERPPCs. But, like the IS ERPPCs, I find that they are too hot compared to the other energy weapons available to the Clans. I feel setting the heat at 13 per shot would encourage more people to carry them, and yet still require careful use.

Whichever the case, I hope that whatever changes will be made to all PPCs, PGI would only tweak one aspect at a time. Making changes to heat, projectile speed, damage and others altogether might make PPCs too good again. Right now, heat reduction seems to be the most direct way to go about making PPCs better.

Edited by Ace367, 19 December 2015 - 06:44 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

So far, I should note, the discussions above have highlighted three things for me:

• We almost unanimously agree the Damage:Heat ratio of ERPPC is way out of line right now
  
• There is a rift where some of us think the SPEED is more important to change than the DAMAGE, while others feel DAMAGE is more important to change than the SPEED.
  
• Standard IS PPCs need some love sub-90.

For points 1 and 2, it all goes back to those damage to heat ratios, though.




I also agree that it would be best if they just changed one thing at a time per cannon. This is why, as l said before, I would prefer they slightly lower the HEAT on IS-ERPPC, and slightly increase the pinpoint DAMAGE on C-ERPPC - even if it is just changing the ratio of central to splash. In both cases something is being altered in the D:H ratio that we all seem to agree is borked. Less heat for less damage, more heat for more (useful) damage.

Why am I leaving speed alone, though, if half of us think that's the problem? Because it doesn't touch on the D:H ratio. At all. Which we all agree is a problem. So, let's address that problem first since at least we can agree on that being an issue.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[Quaamik]

Eldagore has a point. The C-ERPPC needs to be competitive with lasers in order to be viable. Comparing it to ACs and Gauss give a feel for overall balance, but in the end the player is going to have a choice to put a C-ERPPC or a Laser on a given hard point. If the Laser is the hands down better choice, then it’s a forgone conclusion.

Of course, the same thing goes for IS PPC and ER PPCs. The IS ER PPC vs IS Lasers comparison is even worse than the clan PPC vs Clan Lasers, as the IS ERLL does almost the same damage (9 vs 10) for barely more than ½ the heat (8 vs 15). So a fix that works for one would be logical to work for both.

The PPC family cannot be made easier to aim, as they are not hit scan. With no duration it’s either a hit or a miss, you can’t drag it across a target to get a partial hit.

Axillary effects, such as losing target lock, HUD shake, blinding heat vision, blinding night vision, inputting temporary negative quirks or total mech shake can affect the feel of the weapon but unless they are so over the top so as to make it over powered they cannot easily compensate for the horrible heat to damage ratio coupled with the long recharge times. They can make the PPCs something that add flavor, but ultimately they will be passed over in favor of things that just plain work.

They need a heat reduction and a damage bump. They should be better than neutral – deliver as much damage as they create in heat (all other energy weapons but the flamer are). If needed, put the spread damage that the c-ER PPC has on all of them so they all do 10 pinpoint and any additional spread to nearby components. I’ve suggested:

IS
PPC – 13.5 dmg / 10.5 heat, no minimum range
ERPPC – 13.5 dmg / 12 heat
Clan
ERPPC – 15 dmg* / 13.5 heat (*10 on component hit, 2.5 on each of two adjacent components)

This could also work:

IS
PPC – 13.5 dmg / 10.5 heat, no minimum range (*10 on component hit, 1.75 on each of two adjacent components)
ERPPC – 13.5 dmg / 12 heat, (*10 on component hit, 1.75 on each of two adjacent components)

Clan
ERPPC – 15 dmg* / 13.5 heat, (*10 on component hit, 2.5 on each of two adjacent components)

Adding heat to the target might help, but it would be hard to balance. In the end I think sticking with changes to the damage and heat produced is best.

As for the feared “triple PPC meta”, the current ghost heat is effective at keeping 3 PPCs from firing at once. So keep the same ghost heat values.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

So far, I should note, the discussions above have highlighted three things for me:

• We almost unanimously agree the Damage:Heat ratio of ERPPC is way out of line right now
  
• There is a rift where some of us think the SPEED is more important to change than the DAMAGE, while others feel DAMAGE is more important to change than the SPEED.
  
• Standard IS PPCs need some love sub-90.

For points 1 and 2, it all goes back to those damage to heat ratios, though.





I also agree that it would be best if they just changed one thing at a time per cannon. This is why, as l said before, I would prefer they slightly lower the HEAT on IS-ERPPC, and slightly increase the pinpoint DAMAGE on C-ERPPC - even if it is just changing the ratio of central to splash. In both cases something is being altered in the D:H ratio that we all seem to agree is borked. Less heat for less damage, more heat for more (useful) damage.

Why am I leaving speed alone, though, if half of us think that's the problem? Because it doesn't touch on the D:H ratio. At all. Which we all agree is a problem. So, let's address that problem first since at least we can agree on that being an issue.

and because TBH...I don't trust player nature, lol.

We all want our weapons to be secretly ezmode to use, whether we admit it or not. PPCs, even unquirked, ARE usable now, one simply needs to learn to lead. Like any lead time weapon, yes, the target can change direction... but that's part of the skill... and also how you keep things from the "Peek, get instantly disintegrated by PPC spam" that we had back in the day.

fact is, compared to a lot of game,s our aiming mechanic is already criminally easy.

[Ultimax]

Roughneck45, on 17 December 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Im not sure I'd touch the velocity on any of them for fear of syncing them up too well with AC5's again.

Current velocities:

IS AC 5 & UAC5 = 1150 m/s
PPC = 1100 m/s
ER PPC =1200 m/s



So, can you please explain what it is you are afraid of syncing - since they are synched almost perfectly now?

Please know what you are talking about before you post.


We don't see this combination of weapons right now because using weapons at this speed at mid-range, for that much of a tonnage cost is simply not rewarding enough.


That's right, perfect syncing PPFLD alphas are possible and yet not being played, you can all come out from under your blankets - the boogie man won't get you.


PPC/ERPPC were LESS synced with AC 5s when they had a 1500m/s vs. those AC 5 speeds.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 December 2015 - 09:06 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Current velocities:

IS AC 5 & UAC5 = 1150 m/s
PPC = 1100 m/s
ER PPC =1200 m/s



So, can you please explain what it is you are afraid of syncing - since they are synched almost perfectly now?

Please know what you are talking about before you post.


We don't see this combination of weapons right now because using weapons at this speed at mid-range, for that much of a tonnage cost is simply not rewarding enough.


That's right, perfect syncing PPFLD alphas are possible and yet not being played, you can all come out from under your blankets - the boogie man won't get you.

I think the concern is in getting them closer to Gauss speeds. 1 Gauss weighs less, and is colder, than two (U)AC 5, before ammunition which you'd save even more tonnage on due to one gun vs two. I personally have no issue hitting with (U)AC5 or ERPPC, and I know I am not a special snowflake so it's perfectly doable for others if they acclimate to the travel time.

The danger lies when it comes closer to Gauss speeds, IMO. Having said that, does it really impact Gauss/ERPPC combishots effectiveness THAT much?! I don't think so. I have a Warhawk with 2 ERPPC and a Gauss and 90% of the time I couldn't care less if there was a speed difference between the two systems. At the engagement ranges, they're fast enough to usually hit close enough to hit what I want as it is. :\

And if they are farther away, so what? Fire one arm, fire the other. Still drill the dude.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[kapusta11]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Current velocities:

IS AC 5 & UAC5 = 1150 m/s
PPC = 1100 m/s
ER PPC =1200 m/s

So, can you please explain what it is you are afraid of syncing - since they are synched almost perfectly now?

Please know what you are talking about before you post.

We don't see this combination of weapons right now because using weapons at this speed at mid-range, for that much of a tonnage cost is simply not rewarding enough.

That's right, perfect syncing PPFLD alphas are possible and yet not being played, you can all come out from under your blankets - the boogie man won't get you.

PPC/ERPPC were LESS synced with AC 5s when they had a 1500m/s vs. those AC 5 speeds.

This BLR-1D dude has 1320 mps PPCs, 1322.5 mps AC5s, and 2.72 sec PPC cooldown. Apparently that's still not enough for people to use them, or if you check the actual build you'll know why it's not worth it.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 December 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[Ultimax]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

I think the concern is in getting them closer to Gauss speeds. 1 Gauss weighs less, and is colder, than two (U)AC 5, before ammunition which you'd save even more tonnage on due to one gun vs two. I personally have no issue hitting with (U)AC5 or ERPPC, and I know I am not a special snowflake so it's perfectly doable for others if they acclimate to the travel time.

The danger lies when it comes closer to Gauss speeds, IMO. Having said that, does it really impact Gauss/ERPPC combishots effectiveness THAT much?! I don't think so. I have a Warhawk with 2 ERPPC and a Gauss and 90% of the time I couldn't care less if there was a speed difference between the two systems. At the engagement ranges, they're fast enough to usually hit close enough to hit what I want as it is. :\

I personally don't see a big deal with Gauss + 2x PPCs as an effective build.

It has one of the higher skill floors in the game, it requires more effort to be effective - misses are more punishing than misses with lasers.


That's how we can have 2 competitive direct fire build designs.


One is efficient, with a lower output per alpha (30-35). Has a higher skill floor, but also a higher skill ceiling.

The other is less efficient (massive heat spikes, burn time/spread), has higher output per alpha (45-58) but also a lower skill floor (hitscan) and less punishing on misses (can adjust mid-beam)

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

I personally don't see a big deal with Gauss + 2x PPCs as an effective build.

It has one of the higher skill floors in the game, it requires more effort to be effective - misses are more punishing than misses with lasers.


That's how we can have 2 competitive direct fire build designs.


One is efficient, with a lower output per alpha (30-35). Has a higher skill floor, but also a higher skill ceiling.

The other is less efficient (massive heat spikes, burn time/spread), has higher output per alpha (45-58) but also a lower skill floor (hitscan) and less punishing on misses (can adjust mid-beam)

honestly, once the poptarting component and 6+ ppc spammers were removed, didn't see that big an issue

PPC/Gauss was an issue because of the almso tno risk, high reward nature of highspeed PPFLD and poptarting, more than a massive open field thing.

[Ultimax]

kapusta11, on 19 December 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

This BLR-1D dude has 1320 mps PPCs, 1322.5 mps AC5s, and 2.72 sec PPC cooldown. Apparently that's still not enough for people to use them, or if you check the actual build you'll know why it's not worth it.

It's pretty simple.

You are risking a lot (misses) for an output that is pretty low comparatively (30 points).

You don't have any way to mitigate the awful weapon locations (jump jets), or a way to really effectively get off a quick snapshot and back into cover (poptarting).

Your energy weapons even at those speeds aren't really that reliable at longer ranges, so you can't lean heavily on them for 600m+ gameplay (which was a main feature of those builds).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 December 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[Lockon StratosII]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

We don't see this combination of weapons right now because using weapons at this speed at mid-range, for that much of a tonnage cost is simply not rewarding enough.


That's right, perfect syncing PPFLD alphas are possible and yet not being played, you can all come out from under your blankets - the boogie man won't get you.

I am repeating myself, but. We don't see them because they are not viable cause of the heat on ppcs. If you were to drop the heat to make prolonged use of 2 ppcs viable, that would be THE most used build because it would be the most effective way to deal damage.

Don't get me wrong, nobody is here against buffing of ppc line, because it is in dire need of help. What we are against is buffing it in a way that would either invalidate other builds or bring back the OP stuff from the past

[Pariah Devalis]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

I personally don't see a big deal with Gauss + 2x PPCs as an effective build.

It has one of the higher skill floors in the game, it requires more effort to be effective - misses are more punishing than misses with lasers.


That's how we can have 2 competitive direct fire build designs.


One is efficient, with a lower output per alpha (30-35). Has a higher skill floor, but also a higher skill ceiling.

The other is less efficient (massive heat spikes, burn time/spread), has higher output per alpha (45-58) but also a lower skill floor (hitscan) and less punishing on misses (can adjust mid-beam)

For the most part I actually agree. That said, if speed was increased on PPC further, it would be a good idea to either hit the KGC and DWF series with some sort of limiting system that prevented 2x2x Gauss/(ER)PPC combinations (because 50 pinpoint from 800 meters is just silly), or tie Gauss and the PPC family of weapons together into ... and I hate saying this... into ghost heat, where it treats the Gauss Rifles like another PPC for heat calculation purposes if you took 2 Gauss and 2 (ER)PPC.

Honestly, and somewhat off the record, as a Clan pilot I really, really hate what the DWF single handedly did to the Clan balance issue. It limits what can be done because if it can be abused, it will be abused on the DWF. It makes it hard to do any sort of changes because every positive change just makes the DWF even better than it needs to be. That thing needs some compensation neg-quirks for virtually any weapon tweak the Clans get now or in the future. At least they can be tied to Omnipods directly.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 09:27 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

For the most part I actually agree. That said, if speed was increased on PPC further, it would be a good idea to either hit the KGC and DWF series with some sort of limiting system that prevented 2x2x Gauss/(ER)PPC combinations (because 50 pinpoint from 800 meters is just silly), or tie Gauss and the PPC family of weapons together into ... and I hate saying this... into ghost heat, where it treats the Gauss Rifles like another PPC for heat calculation purposes if you took 2 Gauss and 2 (ER)PPC.

Honestly, and somewhat off the record, as a Clan pilot I really, really hate what the DWF single handedly did to the Clan balance issue. It limits what can be done because if it can be abused, it will be abused on the DWF. It makes it hard to do any sort of changes because every positive change just makes the DWF even better than it needs to be. That thing needs some compensation neg-quirks for virtually any weapon tweak the Clans get now or in the future. At least they can be tied to Omnipods directly.

I've always been ok with tying PPCs into the gauss rifle de-sync mechanic... just not PPCs by themselves.

And people will hate me for saying this, but I'd still like to see only 1 Gauss firable at a time., not 2.. might lessen need for the chargeup (though the current guss/laser vomit says otherwise)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 December 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

I've always been ok with tying PPCs into the gauss rifle de-sync mechanic... just not PPCs by themselves.

And people will hate me for saying this, but I'd still like to see only 1 Gauss firable at a time., not 2.. might lessen need for the chargeup (though the current guss/laser vomit says otherwise)

You mean if you have both Gauss and a PPC equipped, PPC automatically require a chargeup? That would be interesting. Then the speed differential cannot be compensated for by shooting the PPCs slightly before the Gauss. I could get behind that idea, but that requires more coding effort from PGI.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

You mean if you have both Gauss and a PPC equipped, PPC automatically require a chargeup? That would be interesting. Then the speed differential cannot be compensated for by shooting the PPCs slightly before the Gauss. I could get behind that idea, but that requires more coding effort from PGI.

not a chargeup, simply a desync. Your PPC needs a ton of power, so the Gauss get's first priority (since it has a charge up to manage, too) and the PPCs can't fire for like half a second or a second after. Keep them from being synced to begin with.

So you either hold off and aim the ppcs after separate, or hit an alpha, and see what happens .5ish seconds later when the PPCs cycle

[Dugra Dugrasson]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 December 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

Would we really complain about an AWS meta for a short while though?

No! I might even cease being an alcoholic.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

And people will hate me for saying this, but I'd still like to see only 1 Gauss firable at a time., not 2.. might lessen need for the chargeup (though the current guss/laser vomit says otherwise)

Single global firing, half second delay, ~5.5s cooldown (without charge, if single fire) was one of my long time preferences.
I'm fine with the charge, but 6.25s is a tad excessive in my opinion. Needing 2 charges to fire 2 would push it into the bad area. ~2 seconds of face time isn't what you want.

If PPCs had more reasonable velocity for their optimal range (or absurdly high, for the isERPPC...) I'd be fine with a 5s cooldown.
It's always irked me PPCs, AC20, MLs (3.9s),SRM6s and previously Gauss, all shared the 4s cooldown. Most of those are 270M weapons...except for the 600+M ones.

Edited by Mcgral18, 19 December 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Interesting. Still not a bad idea. In either situation, I feel like it is something that would need to be clearly explained in the Academy or, at the least, prominently in both the mechlab and as a map loading tip screen (that we probably all ignore at this point).