482 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Interesting. Still not a bad idea. In either situation, I feel like it is something that would need to be clearly explained in the Academy or, at the least, prominently in both the mechlab and as a map loading tip screen (that we probably all ignore at this point).

yeah, it's why I stopped pushing it and started leaning toward simpler approaches... not only more likely to happen, but admitting defeat that my SIm preferences are never gonna fly in a dumbed down FPS world.

[Ultimax]

Lockon StratosII, on 19 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

I am repeating myself, but. We don't see them because they are not viable cause of the heat on ppcs. If you were to drop the heat to make prolonged use of 2 ppcs viable, that would be THE most used build because it would be the most effective way to deal damage.

When you have 2x AC 5s or UAC 5s as back up, the heat on 2 PPCs isn't an issue.

Kapusta's build can alpha non-stop for almost 30s straight, and when switching to just AC 5s can fire indefinitely.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

yeah, it's why I stopped pushing it and started leaning toward simpler approaches... not only more likely to happen, but admitting defeat that my SIm preferences are never gonna fly in a dumbed down FPS world.

I'm still irritated that people mock it when the phrase "Mechwarrior Online is a THINKING man's shooter" comes up. At the very same time, they go absolutely ballistic should any sort of modicum of forethought, planning, and, I donno, THINKING gets remotely floated as an idea.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[kapusta11]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Honestly, and somewhat off the record, as a Clan pilot I really, really hate what the DWF single handedly did to the Clan balance issue. It limits what can be done because if it can be abused, it will be abused on the DWF. It makes it hard to do any sort of changes because every positive change just makes the DWF even better than it needs to be. That thing needs some compensation neg-quirks for virtually any weapon tweak the Clans get now or in the future. At least they can be tied to Omnipods directly.

I fear that DWF is not the only issue here. If in some parallel universe ER PPCs get synced with Gauss, and you see Gauss + 2x ER PPC build on the battlefield, in case of IS you can make a safe guess that it runs XL engine and that it's quite hot, things will start to get a little bit easier from there on. In case of Clans however and their tech you save 5 tons from the loadout alone, about 2 tons from cheap ferro-fibrous armor then spend that tonnage on 2 crit heatsinks and run cXL engine on top of that. Hence Clan ER PPC may require much more careful approach.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 December 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Dugra Dugrasson]

RussianWolf, on 17 December 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

until they add in the PPC effect to the HUD (spazzing out for a few seconds each time you are hit) they aren't really PPCs to me.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. ACs get the shake, rattle, and roll. PPCs need some electrical loving.

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 19 December 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

I fear that DWF is not the only issue here. If in some parallel universe ER PPCs get synced with Gauss, and you see Gauss + 2x ER PPC build on the battlefield, in case of IS you can make a safe guess that it runs XL engine and that it's quite hot, things will start to get a little bit easier from there on. In case of Clans however and their tech you save 5 tons from the loadout alone, about 2 tons from cheap ferro-fibrous armor then spend that tonnage on 2 crit heatsinks and run cXL engine on top of that. Hence Clan ER PPC may require much more careful approach.

hence my preference to make it hit slightly harder, but go slower in the OP. Removes a chunk of the"sync sniper" from the equation, while making it MORE effective at what Clanners always cry at being nerfed compared to the IS at.... Brawling.

Also fits lore of their mythos and tactics better. Never had an issue with clans being worse brawlers, because their culture is based on DUELING, in actuality, so it would make sense their tech follows suit.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

hence my preference to make it hit slightly harder, but go slower in the OP. Removes a chunk of the"sync sniper" from the equation, while making it MORE effective at what Clanners always cry at being nerfed compared to the IS at.... Brawling.

Also fits lore of their mythos and tactics better. Never had an issue with clans being worse brawlers, because their culture is based on DUELING, in actuality, so it would make sense their tech follows suit.

Further, PPFLD is one area that the Clans will never be equal at vs the IS.

IS: AC2, 5, 10, 20, UAC5, Gauss, PPC, ERPPC.
C: AC2, UAC2, Gauss, ERPPC.

IS literally have twice the options to inflict pinpoint front loaded damage, of which the ERPPC family in both cases is currently not a serious factor. In addition, the current burn durations of IS lasers are so short that, while technically not PPFLD, get pretty close to it now. Especially taking quirks into consideration.

A somewhat sluggish but hard hitting C-ERPPC would foot the bill for the Clan side. Making it hot would be the trade off - and it is already plenty hot. High PPFLD but low sustained damage due to heat concerns and, as a result, difficult to boat effectively. More of a mid range weapon than a brawling one, really, simply due to heat concerns alone.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

Further, PPFLD is one area that the Clans will never be equal at vs the IS.

IS: AC2, 5, 10, 20, UAC5, Gauss, PPC, ERPPC.
C: AC2, UAC2, Gauss, ERPPC.

IS literally have twice the options to inflict pinpoint front loaded damage, of which the ERPPC family in both cases is currently not a serious factor. In addition, the current burn durations of IS lasers are so short that, while technically not PPFLD, get pretty close to it now. Especially taking quirks into consideration.

A somewhat sluggish but hard hitting C-ERPPC would foot the bill for the Clan side. Making it hot would be the trade off - and it is already plenty hot. High PPFLD but low sustained damage due to heat concerns and, as a result, difficult to boat effectively. More of a mid range weapon than a brawling one, really, simply due to heat concerns alone.

I know it will shock some people, but I generally but a fair bit of "big picture" thought into posts like the OP. Everything in it, happens for a reason.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

hence my preference to make it hit slightly harder, but go slower in the OP. Removes a chunk of the"sync sniper" from the equation, while making it MORE effective at what Clanners always cry at being nerfed compared to the IS at.... Brawling.

Also fits lore of their mythos and tactics better. Never had an issue with clans being worse brawlers, because their culture is based on DUELING, in actuality, so it would make sense their tech follows suit.

How slow, exactly?

How hard hitting?


30 PP FLD Sadder? 1000M/s slow?
Not sure I want that, for either setting.

[Dugra Dugrasson]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 December 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

With the added benefit of removing every single heavy and assault with no ballistic hardpoints from the game entirely! awesome!

Yeah. He apparently did not play through the Poptart-Era of MWO.

[Pariah Devalis]

nodebate, on 19 December 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

Yeah. He apparently did not play through the Poptart-Era of MWO.

To be fair and cut right to the core: Unless they revert the changes to Jump Jets, the poptart era is not coming back. At the least not on heavy and assault mechs.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 19 December 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

How slow, exactly?

How hard hitting?


30 PP FLD Sadder? 1000M/s slow?
Not sure I want that, for either setting.

It's outlined in the OP chief, not gonna keep reiterating it

[Zordicron]

Quaamik, on 19 December 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Eldagore has a point. The C-ERPPC needs to be competitive with lasers in order to be viable. Comparing it to ACs and Gauss give a feel for overall balance, but in the end the player is going to have a choice to put a C-ERPPC or a Laser on a given hard point. If the Laser is the hands down better choice, then it’s a forgone conclusion.

Of course, the same thing goes for IS PPC and ER PPCs. The IS ER PPC vs IS Lasers comparison is even worse than the clan PPC vs Clan Lasers, as the IS ERLL does almost the same damage (9 vs 10) for barely more than ½ the heat (8 vs 15). So a fix that works for one would be logical to work for both.

The PPC family cannot be made easier to aim, as they are not hit scan. With no duration it’s either a hit or a miss, you can’t drag it across a target to get a partial hit.

Axillary effects, such as losing target lock, HUD shake, blinding heat vision, blinding night vision, inputting temporary negative quirks or total mech shake can affect the feel of the weapon but unless they are so over the top so as to make it over powered they cannot easily compensate for the horrible heat to damage ratio coupled with the long recharge times. They can make the PPCs something that add flavor, but ultimately they will be passed over in favor of things that just plain work.

I disagree with the effectiveness of potential temp. negative quirks etc- I think they could be done in a way that adds a lot of value to the weapon- provided we also do the rest of what i had posted.

Dropping target lock on the affected enemy for instance, might not seem like much on it's face as the enemy will still be able to see you. But, his team mates that were relying on his shared targeting won't. No more indirect LRM support, no more entire enemy team seeing your dorito on their radar. Sure it's subtle, but it's more effective then it appears. We could get more creative- negate artemis for 5 seconds for instance, negate BAP, increase UAC jam chance- the list of effects is as long as the list of the game mechanics Paul and Russ invented to give the weapons and mechs flavor.

IMO, thats a tol bucket to use when making the 3 PPC's different from one another. And thats really my whole thing with what i presented earlier- CERPPC is completely seperate from the IS PPC's, and IS PPC should be drastically different in use then the IS ERPPC. We don;t need to buckert them together and figure out something that works for all of them, we need to lok at them and adjust in a way they each have their own role: CERPPC has a role/fit to compete with clan laser barf, IS PPC has a totally different role/function then the ERPPC.

Frankly, I think trying to treat them all the same like has been going on since beta is part of what got us into this situation. Maybe it was done for core rules, but we already have unlimited weapon quantity all shooting into the exact crosshair position at once(pinpoint alphas) so really, why are we trying to stick with straight up core rule guided stats for the PPC's any more? ERPPC doen't need to be a slightly modified version of the regular PPC. The min range "advantage" is completely useless in practice in this game. It's time to diversify the two weapons(and make CERPPC cometitive with clan lasers).

[Ultimax]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

I'm still irritated that people mock it when the phrase "Mechwarrior Online is a THINKING man's shooter" comes up. At the very same time, they go absolutely ballistic should any sort of modicum of forethought, planning, and, I donno, THINKING gets remotely floated as an idea.

This is getting off track but the reason for this is wildly different expectations or definitions of what "thinking" means.


You have to design your build in the mechlab (and there are optimal and sub-optimal, as well as outright bad ways to do this), you have to understand what the current meta is, you have to understand the maps and the best positions & routes for the weight class and often mech (JJs? Terrain climb ability? overall model size? Weapon location?) you are playing.


All of that requires thinking.


You can also think in a fast paced game where one wrong move means your match is over, you just have to think fast.


Thinking doesn't mean you need 30s to 60s to plan out each and every move, this isn't a board game.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 December 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

This is getting off track but the reason for this is wildly different expectations or definitions of what "thinking" means.


You have to design your build in the mechlab, you have to understand what the current meta is, you have to understand the maps and the best positions & routes for the specific weight class and mech you are playing.


All of that requires thinking.


You can also think in a fast paced game where one wrong move means your match is over, you just have to think fast.


Thinking doesn't mean you need 30s to 60s to plan out each and every move, this isn't a board game.

and with lead time weapons, thinking is also involved in when to take the shot, and more importantly, when NOT to...and if you do, what you are going to need to do to make it hit. Not really a question with lightsabervomit. Or much thinking...people just do....

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 December 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[Mawai]

Revising PPCs slightly seems like a good idea to me.

However, you need to watch the synergies with ballistics. Speed of PPCs is a critical element of use. (The marauder with the PPC velocity quirk makes them usable though not great). If revised PPC velocities make them work well in concert with some of the ballistics then we will be back to square one.

As soon as you hit the magic number of about 30 PP-FLD damage ... especially with a decent rate of fire and range ... then folks start to flock to it. That is how closely weapons are balanced and in my opinion that is not what is desired. The weapon should be a bit better so it is a viable build option without becoming a clearly better choice.

As for clans, I agree that the extra 5 spash damage isn't usually appreciated since many players prefer only weapons that do damage where they are aimed. On the other hand, increasing the clan PPC damage moves it very close to the gauss rifle ... except that it has no ammo, weighs less, uses fewer crit spots, does not explode, has a faster cooldown, longer range and no charge mechanic ... while having as its only drawbacks a slower projectile velocity and generating more heat. It won't take much of a damage increase to make PPCs better than the current gauss rifle.

This also affects the overall clan vs IS balance. If you make the clan PPC strictly better than the IS versions (which is expected from lore) ... you end up extending the clan vs IS imbalance. To even it out, the clan PPC needs to be "different but equally effective" as the IS versions.

So perhaps the clan PPC goes to 12 or 12.5 damage for 15 heat while the IS ER-PPC is 10 damage for 13 or 14 heat. Clans do more damage ... IS generates less heat.

[pbiggz]

The biggest issue across the board for PPCs is their pathetic slowness. Given the damage they do and the heat they generate, if you simply increased their velocity they would be in a much better place, but paul won't do it because he's the one who nerfed them into the ground in the first place. I can only assume someone touched him in the wrong place (RIP knockdowns).


Also, keep in mind gauss rifles are dead now, so I doubt you'd see that meta be resurgent.

Edited by pbiggz, 19 December 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mawai, on 19 December 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

Revising PPCs slightly seems like a good idea to me.

However, you need to watch the synergies with ballistics. Speed of PPCs is a critical element of use. (The marauder with the PPC velocity quirk makes them usable though not great). If revised PPC velocities make them work well in concert with some of the ballistics then we will be back to square one.

As soon as you hit the magic number of about 30 PP-FLD damage ... especially with a decent rate of fire and range ... then folks start to flock to it. That is how closely weapons are balanced and in my opinion that is not what is desired. The weapon should be a bit better so it is a viable build option without becoming a clearly better choice.

As for clans, I agree that the extra 5 spash damage isn't usually appreciated since many players prefer only weapons that do damage where they are aimed. On the other hand, increasing the clan PPC damage moves it very close to the gauss rifle ... except that it has no ammo, weighs less, uses fewer crit spots, does not explode, has a faster cooldown, longer range and no charge mechanic ... while having as its only drawbacks a slower projectile velocity and generating more heat. It won't take much of a damage increase to make PPCs better than the current gauss rifle.

This also affects the overall clan vs IS balance. If you make the clan PPC strictly better than the IS versions (which is expected from lore) ... you end up extending the clan vs IS imbalance. To even it out, the clan PPC needs to be "different but equally effective" as the IS versions.

So perhaps the clan PPC goes to 12 or 12.5 damage for 15 heat while the IS ER-PPC is 10 damage for 13 or 14 heat. Clans do more damage ... IS generates less heat.

I think the low projectile velocity will always keep it from replacing gauss... since people want hitscan or near, as most people seem to have trouble actually leading targets. It's also why I gave it a modest pp dmg increase overall, while making sure it stayed a healthy 800 m/s or so south of synergizing with Gauss.... or anything else, really. And at 14 heat, for 1200ish m/s, I don't see them becoming the next craze.

[Pariah Devalis]

Mawai, on 19 December 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

Revising PPCs slightly seems like a good idea to me.

However, you need to watch the synergies with ballistics. Speed of PPCs is a critical element of use. (The marauder with the PPC velocity quirk makes them usable though not great). If revised PPC velocities make them work well in concert with some of the ballistics then we will be back to square one.

As soon as you hit the magic number of about 30 PP-FLD damage ... especially with a decent rate of fire and range ... then folks start to flock to it. That is how closely weapons are balanced and in my opinion that is not what is desired. The weapon should be a bit better so it is a viable build option without becoming a clearly better choice.

As for clans, I agree that the extra 5 spash damage isn't usually appreciated since many players prefer only weapons that do damage where they are aimed. On the other hand, increasing the clan PPC damage moves it very close to the gauss rifle ... except that it has no ammo, weighs less, uses fewer crit spots, does not explode, has a faster cooldown, longer range and no charge mechanic ... while having as its only drawbacks a slower projectile velocity and generating more heat. It won't take much of a damage increase to make PPCs better than the current gauss rifle.

This also affects the overall clan vs IS balance. If you make the clan PPC strictly better than the IS versions (which is expected from lore) ... you end up extending the clan vs IS imbalance. To even it out, the clan PPC needs to be "different but equally effective" as the IS versions.

So perhaps the clan PPC goes to 12 or 12.5 damage for 15 heat while the IS ER-PPC is 10 damage for 13 or 14 heat. Clans do more damage ... IS generates less heat.

12-13 is where I'd leave it, personally. Means two of them isn't quite 30 damage, but a single cannon is still worth taking on a smaller mech. Also, some food for thought:

One C-ERPPC can more or less be taken care of by the internal 10 DHS. Two require about 10 additional DHS to start to compensate for, for a total of 16 tons for the second weapon, and it still cannot fire with any sort of high frequency. A Gauss Rifle, by comparison, will cost a Clan mech 12 tons, plus 3 tons for ammo, at 15 tons, dealing more damage than the one additional C-ERPPC and with practically no heat impact on the first ERPPC you already had equipped.

It isn't just the weight of the weapon. It is the weapon + necessary secondary equipment. For ballistics, it is ammo. For energy weapons, it is DHS. You need an absolute ton of DHS to compensate for ERPPC, so it isn't just the flat 6 tons of the gun you are spending.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 10:23 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 19 December 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Also, keep in mind gauss rifles are dead now, so I doubt you'd see that meta be resurgent.

Heard that claimed and CRIED form the mountaintops even by the top comps when the chargeup was introduced.......

Didn't hold up then, doubt it will now. Maybe ridiculous over reliance on Gauss is gone, but if people can't make a 2000 m/s, 1980 meter ranged, 15 PPFLD no heat weapon work... that says more about the needy, crutch leaning ezmode mentality of players than the actual viability of the weapon.