27 replies to this topic

[Poisoner]

With balance as close as it's ever been, I think it's time we lowered clan laser duration and removed quirks that increase burn time as well.

[Pariah Devalis]

That would directly skew the balance as clan mechs rely on lasers, considering it's the only reliable thing we have. As a diehard clan player, I'd advise against it to preserve balance. Instead, they need to make ERPPC and LBX worth their heat or weight.

[FupDup]

The only Clam laser that could use a beam reduction is the ERLL, in which case it might be good to accompany it with a slight damage reduction down to 10 or something.

[Poisoner]

Clan ER LL duration is way too ******* long and the ghost heat hurts when you try to trade against battle masters and other super quirked IS mechs.

[Pariah Devalis]

Well yes. The ERLLAS specifically is too long. You phrased your opinion as if every laser could use a burn time reduction. That ERLLAS is ridiculous.

[Tyler Valentine]

meh, clan LASERs still do more damage and have a longer range. Going up against quirked Battlemasters, Thunderbolts and the like can be frustrating sometimes but overall I'm not complaining about our LASERs. IMO balance is getting pretty close and, if anything, we still have a slight edge.

[Khobai]

Clan lasers need lower heat as well as lower damage and range.

Because clan mechs like the Nova are supposed to run 12 lasers. But clan lasers are currently way too hot for 12 laser builds to work. The heat needs to be lowered for mechs like the Nova to function properly. And lowering the heat also means lowering damage/range to keep things balanced. In general, Clan lasers should do +1 damage but have slightly longer beam duration; and they should have about 33% more range but also higher heat.

Changing CERML to 6 damage for 5 heat at 360m (instead of 7 damage for 6 heat at 405m) would be a good start. This is how medium lasers should be:

ISML = 5 damage for 4 heat with 270m range with normal beam duration
CERML = 6 damage for 5 heat with 360m range with slightly longer beam duration

CLPL also needs to be changed. It should not be 13 damage for 10 heat with 600m range. Thats ridiculous.
This is how large pulse lasers should be:

ISLPL = 11 damage for 7 heat with 365m range with normal beam duration
CLPL = 12 damage for 8 heat with 485m range with slightly longer beam duration

Nerfing the CLPL to that level also makes the CERPPC slightly more favorable as a weapon. So its a necessary change. Because right now the CLPL makes the CERPPC completely obsolete.


Range quirks on the IS mechs would also have to be adjusted downward if you lower the range on clan lasers. But overall it would help shift the meta away from long range laser vomit which is a good thing.

Edited by Khobai, 22 December 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[Tyler Valentine]

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Clan lasers need lower heat as well as lower damage and range.

Because clan mechs like the Nova are supposed to run 12 lasers. But clan lasers are currently way too hot for 12 energy builds to work. The heat needs to be lowered for mechs like the Nova to function properly. And lowering the heat also means lowering damage to keep things balanced. Range probably needs to be knocked down to 360m too since 405m still feels too long range.

Changing CERML to 6 damage for 5 heat (instead of 7 damage for 6 heat) would be a good start.

This is how lasers should be:
ISML = 5 damage for 4 heat with 270m range with normal beam duration
CERML = 6 damage for 5 heat with 360m range with slightly longer beam duration

CLPL also needs to be changed. It should not be 13 damage for 10 heat with 600m range. Thats ridiculous.

This is how large pulse lasers should be:
ISLPL = 11 damage for 7 heat with 365m range with normal beam duration
CLPL = 12 damage for 8 heat with 485m range with slightly longer beam duration

In general, Clan lasers should do more damage but have longer beam duration. And have more range but also higher heat.

This just makes them more like IS LASERs. What's the point of having different factions? I prefer a balanced but different approach where Clan/IS have distinctly different play styles.

[pbiggz]

Tyler Valentine, on 22 December 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

This just makes them more like IS LASERs. What's the point of having different factions? I prefer a balanced but different approach where Clan/IS have distinctly different play styles.

The longer burn time with more damage is exactly how you diversify them. Khobai's suggestion is sound.

I doubt we'll see any nice changes like that though. Iterative balancing is not the Paul method, clunky mass nerfs are how paul does business, if he's not busy trying to make some super complex system with zero documentation to balance for him.

[Khobai]

Quote

This just makes them more like IS LASERs. What's the point of having different factions? I prefer a balanced but different approach where Clan/IS have distinctly different play styles.

um you realize the IS quirks make IS lasers more like clan lasers? so wtf are you talking about.

they already ARE alike. IS just get their range bonus from quirks rather than it being on the weapon itself.

the meta is already the same for both clan and IS, its long range laser vomit. Its going to remain that way until you balance weapons to the point where IS mechs arnt quirk dependent for weapon balance.


getting rid of long range laser vomit as the dominant meta, and balancing weapons so we have a variety of viable builds instead of just laser vomit everywhere, should take precedence over making sure IS and clans play differently.

Id rather have a game where I can choose between lasers, ballistics, and missiles than a game where my only options are IS laser vomit or clan laser vomit.


And ive explained the problem with the Nova. How do you expect a 12 energy mech to work when clan lasers run as hot as they do? It simply cannot work. Ever. The heat has to be lowered on the clan lasers to make mechs like the Nova work. Otherwise theres no point in the Nova even being in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 22 December 2015 - 10:34 AM.

[M T]

Poisoner, on 22 December 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

With balance as close as it's ever been, I think it's time we lowered clan laser duration and removed quirks that increase burn time as well.

+1

[Rhaythe]

Because maor lazzors is what MWO needs? ~_^

[Ghogiel]

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Clan lasers need lower heat as well as lower damage and range.

Because clan mechs like the Nova are supposed to run 12 lasers. But clan lasers are currently way too hot for 12 laser builds to work. The heat needs to be lowered for mechs like the Nova to function properly. And lowering the heat also means lowering damage/range to keep things balanced. In general, Clan lasers should do +1 damage but have slightly longer beam duration; and they should have about 33% more range but also higher heat.

Changing CERML to 6 damage for 5 heat at 360m (instead of 7 damage for 6 heat at 405m) would be a good start. This is how medium lasers should be:

ISML = 5 damage for 4 heat with 270m range with normal beam duration
CERML = 6 damage for 5 heat with 360m range with slightly longer beam duration

CLPL also needs to be changed. It should not be 13 damage for 10 heat with 600m range. Thats ridiculous.
This is how large pulse lasers should be:

ISLPL = 11 damage for 7 heat with 365m range with normal beam duration
CLPL = 12 damage for 8 heat with 485m range with slightly longer beam duration

Nerfing the CLPL to that level also makes the CERPPC slightly more favorable as a weapon. So its a necessary change. Because right now the CLPL makes the CERPPC completely obsolete.


Range quirks on the IS mechs would also have to be adjusted downward if you lower the range on clan lasers. But overall it would help shift the meta away from long range laser vomit which is a good thing.

Not just the range quirks, you'd have to tone back every laser quirk on all the Is mechs. Which would amount to a another of PGIs famed balance passes. Which would probably take forever. And not be very good.

[cazidin]

Khobai gets it. I made a similar post a few days ago. I like his proposal a bit more though because it's also TT friendly. Clan weapons usually had a difference of 1 point of damage, not 2.

[Khobai]

Quote

Not just the range quirks, you'd have to tone back every laser quirk on all the Is mechs. Which would amount to a another of PGIs famed balance passes. Which would probably take forever. And not be very good.

It might very well take forever. But balancing the game is definitely a good thing to work towards.

problem with PGI is they dont incrementally buff.nerf weapons. They just wait 6 months then implement MASSIVE nerfs. Theres no incremental changes or fine tuning going on.

They just wait 6 months then knock down whatever weapon is the meta weapon... and they go around and around in circles nerfing things like a dog chasing its own tail.

Every patch they should be making small adjustments until they get it right... if they did that we could have a balanced game in a few months.

Edited by Khobai, 22 December 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[cazidin]

Ghogiel, on 22 December 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Not just the range quirks, you'd have to tone back every laser quirk on all the Is mechs. Which would amount to a another of PGIs famed balance passes. Which would probably take forever. And not be very good.

Oh dear. Quirkening III?

[Mcgral18]

Fun little titbit: only 2 Clam lasers deal less Damage per Tick than their IS counterpart.

The MPL and the LPL.
Everything else? Clams deal equal or greater damage in the same burn duration of the IS lasers, but additional damage as well.

Unquirked, of course. I'm not a fan of PGIs attempts to balance factions via quirks.
If everyone has quirks, no one does.

[Aresye]

Mcgral18, on 22 December 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Fun little titbit: only 2 Clam lasers deal less Damage per Tick than their IS counterpart.

The MPL and the LPL.
Everything else? Clams deal equal or greater damage in the same burn duration of the IS lasers, but additional damage as well.

Unquirked, of course. I'm not a fan of PGIs attempts to balance factions via quirks.
If everyone has quirks, no one does.

Yeah that's overall the main issue. The majority of quirked IS laser vomit greatly outperforms the Clans in nearly every category.

I don't even run my EBJs or TBRs w/ the standard 2CLPL+4CERML loadouts anymore. If I want an effective LPL+ML vomit build I take my Jester now.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 22 December 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

The only Clam laser that could use a beam reduction is the ERLL, in which case it might be good to accompany it with a slight damage reduction down to 10 or something.

It doesn't even need a damage reduction.

CERLLAS from 1.5 to 1.25
IS ERLLAS from 1.25 to 1.1 or 1.15


I'd also like to see CMPL down from 0.85 to 0.75 to separate it a bit further from CERMLAS.

[process]

Khobai's suggestion is an excellent place to start. I think if we wanted to further distinguish IS and Clan tech, we could establish some controlled relationships, e.g., damage is proportional to duration, heat is proportional to range.

Aside from size and weight constraints, duration is the most restrictive variable. 1 second is about as long as I'm happy with, and anything above 1.25 seconds I just won't use. I'm more than happy to scale back damage if we can get more reasonable durations.