316 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

well.....considering the amount of bad play I see in MWO....not sure I can back that up, lol.

It feels so damned good to track a target with a UAC10 or 20. Just... so good. I... might need a towel. Unless it jams every other shot. In that case, I just need a new keyboard. And a new window.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 December 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[cazidin]

I like this idea.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 December 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

It feels so damned good to track a target with a UAC10 or 20. Just... so good. I... might need a towel. Unless it jams every other shot. In that case, I just need a new keyboard. And a new window.

I love everything about C-UAC10s, and am pretty fond of the UAC20, too. Well---everything but the honda accord muffler model. Should be a bigger version of the tri barrel UAC.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 December 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

I love everything about C-UAC10s, and am pretty fond of the UAC20, too. Well---everything but the honda accord muffler model. Should be a bigger version of the tri barrel UAC.

Well then, you probably will not like our latest model of Huntsman. It has not been released yet since the technicians are still trying to sort out where to stick the whistler on the exhaust system. That spoiler on its back is totally rad, though.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

I love everything about C-UAC10s, and am pretty fond of the UAC20, too. Well---everything but the honda accord muffler model. Should be a bigger version of the tri barrel UAC.

When Clan Wave 1 launched, the UAC10 was my favourite weapon. It wasn't very good then, of course, but it remained a favourite of mine since. It's wonderful that they're decent again, and actually fairly exceptional on the IIC mechs.

OT, I know, but needed to give props where they're due. I love my UAC10's.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 20 December 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

When Clan Wave 1 launched, the UAC10 was my favourite weapon. It wasn't very good then, of course, but it remained a favourite of mine since. It's wonderful that they're decent again, and actually fairly exceptional on the IIC mechs.

OT, I know, but needed to give props where they're due. I love my UAC10's.

I just hate how those chunks of rebar LOOK sticking out of my Summoner's LA.......

[Gryphorim]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

I love everything about C-UAC10s, and am pretty fond of the UAC20, too. Well---everything but the honda accord muffler model. Should be a bigger version of the tri barrel UAC.

I always preferred this quad barrelled design:

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

I just hate how those chunks of rebar LOOK sticking out of my Summoner's LA.......

yeah, to be honest, of prefer a single barrel to two. 3+ would be awesome, but alas

LBX barrels at least look badass.

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 19 December 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

But the LBX isnt a shotgun. Its more like an aerial detonated flechette canister. it would actually make more sense if it fired in a cylinder shape rather than a cone shape, so its spread doesnt increase with range, since the LBX is actually supposed to outrange standard ACs.

the closest thing to a shotgun in battletech is probably the snubnose PPC. its like a PPC in sawed off shotgun form.

There are flechette shells for shotguns as well as slugs - It's still called a shotgun. When Battletech manuals even cite it as being a mech-mounted shotgun, there isn't much else to be said. Airburst or otherwise, spread increases as range increases between munitions release and target.

The problem is you can't have what you want using the physics of the current LBX and the suggested proximity detonations are too complex for PGI to code and expect positive results.

[Bishop Steiner]

DrxAbstract, on 20 December 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

There are flechette shells for shotguns as well as slugs - It's still called a shotgun. When Battletech manuals even cite it as being a mech-mounted shotgun, there isn't much else to be said. Airburst or otherwise, spread increases as range increases between munitions release and target.

The problem is you can't have what you want using the physics of the current LBX and the suggested proximity detonations are too complex for PGI to code and expect positive results.

it also ignores the fact that flechette canisters do spread after detonation.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 December 2015 - 08:03 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

PGI could implement the adjacent component damage and greatly condense the graphic to appear as a tight cluster of munitions - it's probably the only way you're going to get effective damage without the unrealistic single-shell visual and turn LBX into a viable weapon. Hell they could still make a single transparent object with a bunch of yellow dots just to reduce resource demands.

Seems like the best solution, anyway.

[Khobai]

Quote

There are flechette shells for shotguns as well as slugs - It's still called a shotgun.

but its not a flechette shell. its more like an airbursting grenade with flechettes. it doesnt shoot flechettes out of the barrel, it shoots a canister that explodes when its near the target.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 19 December 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

I don't remember MW4 being a buckshot, it always felt like a single slug to me...although I think the slug's damage increased as you got closer.

Just to settle this debate because I'm late to the party like always. The MW4 LBX was in fact a single slug. The spread mechanic only worked with client authenticated servers (meaning it was a single player only mechanic) but it also had damage falloff which is why it hit hard at really close range (that and it did 40% more damage than the regular 20) but didn't do as much at its max range (50% at max range).

Granted the spread mechanic was actual splash damage (like missiles did as well), which is not how cERPPCs work in this game, iirc they are simulating splash by transferring damage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 December 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

DrxAbstract, on 20 December 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

There are flechette shells for shotguns as well as slugs - It's still called a shotgun. When Battletech manuals even cite it as being a mech-mounted shotgun, there isn't much else to be said. Airburst or otherwise, spread increases as range increases between munitions release and target.

Khobai, on 21 December 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

but its not a flechette shell. its more like an airbursting grenade with flechettes. it doesnt shoot flechettes out of the barrel, it shoots a canister that explodes when its near the target.

The LB-X cluster rounds are not air-burst weapons (like the old Shrapnel shells) at all, but a canister round similar in principle to rounds like the M1028 120mm canister round used by the M1 Abrams MBT, the M336 & M377 90mm canister rounds used by the M48 Sherman MBT, and the XM590E1 90mm canister round designed for the M67 90mm Recoilless Rifle.

• "The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller submunitions. This improves the attacker’s chances of striking a critical location but disperses total damage by spreading hits over the target area rather than concentrating the damage on one location." - Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised), pg. 132
  
• " A highly advanced weapon system, the LB-X could switch between ammunition like standard autocannon rounds or fire a shotgun style round that would split into hundreds of explosive sub-munitions. This style of submunition was particularly effective against vehicles, but also proved effective for short-range anti-aircraft flak, and for dispersing attacking infantry." - Era Report: 2750, pg. 98
  
• "The 120mm M1028 Canister Cartridge was developed for close-in defense of tanks against massed assaulting infantry attack and to break up infantry concentrations, between a range of 200-500 meters, by discharging large numbers of tungsten balls from the main cannon."
  
• "When the gun is fired, the canister body is propelled along the barrel. As it emerges from the gun muzzle, air pressure on the closing cup and the centrifugal forces acting on the body combine to cause the canister to break open along the four axial grooves. The 90 mm M336 canister round uses a brass M108B1 rimmed cartridge case with an M58 black-powder percussion primer press-fitted to the base. The propelling charge is 4.08 kg of M6 propellant."
  
• "When the gun is fired, the canister body is propelled along the barrel. As it emerges from the gun muzzle, air pressure on the closing cup and the centrifugal forces acting on the body combine to cause the canister to break open along the four axial grooves. The flechettes are then free to disperse across a conical angle of 14º. The maximum effective range of the flechettes is approximately 400 m, at which range the arc is about 96 m wide. The 90 mm M377 canister round uses a brass M108B1 rimmed cartridge case with an M58 black-powder percussion primer press-fitted to the base. The propelling charge is 4.08 kg of M6 propellant."

The main difference between the LB-X cluster rounds and its real-world counterparts is that the individual submunitions of the LB-X cluster round are themselves explosives rather than inert tungsten/steel balls or flechettes - it is, essentially, a giant shotgun shell filled with grenades.

Proximity-detonated, Shrapnel-shell-style munitions are actually a property of standard autocannons, by virtue of the "flak rounds" described (as an alternate munition available to standard ACs since 2310) on page 352 of Tactical Operations.
"Despite having been a proven technology in ages past, flak autocannon ammunition remains uncommon today. Intended to deal with airborne combatants such as VTOLs and fighters, this ammunition uses proximity charges to detonate in mid-air. While potent against fast-moving targets susceptible to foreign object damage (FOD), flak ammo is less effective against slower-moving targets on the ground because the charges scatter their shrapnel too far and too quickly to benefit from the target's mobility."

Additionally, there are the "flechette rounds" described on page 208 of TechManual.
"Developed by the FedSuns in 3055 for standard ACs, flechette munitions deliver a shotgun-like blast of metal shards rather than a stream of shells. Intended for use against infantry, flechette rounds can wipe out entire platoons of conventional troops in seconds and can even ravage battle-armored squads, but this ammo type loses effectiveness against armored targets such as vehicles and 'Mechs."

To summarize:
1.) LB-X cluster rounds = canister-round/shotshell (fragments at muzzle exit) with explosive submunitions
2.) Standard AC flechette rounds = canister-round/shotshell (fragments at muzzle exit) with non-explosive submunitions
3.) Standard AC flak rounds = proximity-detonated Shrapnel shell with non-explosive submunitions

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 December 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Just to settle this debate because I'm late to the party like always. The MW4 LBX was in fact a single slug. The spread mechanic only worked with client authenticated servers (meaning it was a single player only mechanic) but it also had damage falloff which is why it hit hard at really close range (that and it did 40% more damage than the regular 20) but didn't do as much at its max range (50% at max range).

Granted the spread mechanic was actual splash damage (like missiles did as well), which is not how cERPPCs work in this game, iirc they are simulating splash by transferring damage.

I'd point out the PvE versions of MW4 is the real MW4.....

The multiplayer side got so stale so fast, I admit to not really paying attention or caring.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

I'd point out the PvE versions of MW4 is the real MW4.....

The multiplayer side got so stale so fast, I admit to not really paying attention or caring.

That AI cheated at higher difficulties, though. Nonstop CT for days. Torso twisted 90 degrees away? Have an arm and side torso in the way? Don't care.

[Pjwned]

One of the biggest reasons the LB-X cannons are bad is that the critical hit system is horrendously bad. Of course, it's never going to be fixed to be anything other than dogshit, so I guess other solutions for the LB-X may be warranted even if they're not ideal.

If the crit system is going to be ignored still (which it will) then just increase the damage per pellet on LB-X cannons and call it done, maybe tighten its spread further too.

[dwwolf]

Strum Wealh, on 21 December 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

The LB-X cluster rounds are not air-burst weapons (like the old Shrapnel shells) at all, but a canister round similar in principle to rounds like the M1028 120mm canister round used by the M1 Abrams MBT, the M336 & M377 90mm canister rounds used by the M48 Sherman MBT, and the XM590E1 90mm canister round designed for the M67 90mm Recoilless Rifle.

• "The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller submunitions. This improves the attacker’s chances of striking a critical location but disperses total damage by spreading hits over the target area rather than concentrating the damage on one location." - Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised), pg. 132
  
• " A highly advanced weapon system, the LB-X could switch between ammunition like standard autocannon rounds or fire a shotgun style round that would split into hundreds of explosive sub-munitions. This style of submunition was particularly effective against vehicles, but also proved effective for short-range anti-aircraft flak, and for dispersing attacking infantry." - Era Report: 2750, pg. 98
  
• "The 120mm M1028 Canister Cartridge was developed for close-in defense of tanks against massed assaulting infantry attack and to break up infantry concentrations, between a range of 200-500 meters, by discharging large numbers of tungsten balls from the main cannon."
  
• "When the gun is fired, the canister body is propelled along the barrel. As it emerges from the gun muzzle, air pressure on the closing cup and the centrifugal forces acting on the body combine to cause the canister to break open along the four axial grooves. The 90 mm M336 canister round uses a brass M108B1 rimmed cartridge case with an M58 black-powder percussion primer press-fitted to the base. The propelling charge is 4.08 kg of M6 propellant."
  
• "When the gun is fired, the canister body is propelled along the barrel. As it emerges from the gun muzzle, air pressure on the closing cup and the centrifugal forces acting on the body combine to cause the canister to break open along the four axial grooves. The flechettes are then free to disperse across a conical angle of 14º. The maximum effective range of the flechettes is approximately 400 m, at which range the arc is about 96 m wide. The 90 mm M377 canister round uses a brass M108B1 rimmed cartridge case with an M58 black-powder percussion primer press-fitted to the base. The propelling charge is 4.08 kg of M6 propellant."

The main difference between the LB-X cluster rounds and its real-world counterparts is that the individual submunitions of the LB-X cluster round are themselves explosives rather than inert tungsten/steel balls or flechettes - it is, essentially, a giant shotgun shell filled with grenades.

Proximity-detonated, Shrapnel-shell-style munitions are actually a property of standard autocannons, by virtue of the "flak rounds" described (as an alternate munition available to standard ACs since 2310) on page 352 of Tactical Operations.
"Despite having been a proven technology in ages past, flak autocannon ammunition remains uncommon today. Intended to deal with airborne combatants such as VTOLs and fighters, this ammunition uses proximity charges to detonate in mid-air. While potent against fast-moving targets susceptible to foreign object damage (FOD), flak ammo is less effective against slower-moving targets on the ground because the charges scatter their shrapnel too far and too quickly to benefit from the target's mobility."

Additionally, there are the "flechette rounds" described on page 208 of TechManual.
"Developed by the FedSuns in 3055 for standard ACs, flechette munitions deliver a shotgun-like blast of metal shards rather than a stream of shells. Intended for use against infantry, flechette rounds can wipe out entire platoons of conventional troops in seconds and can even ravage battle-armored squads, but this ammo type loses effectiveness against armored targets such as vehicles and 'Mechs."

To summarize:
1.) LB-X cluster rounds = canister-round/shotshell (fragments at muzzle exit) with explosive submunitions
2.) Standard AC flechette rounds = canister-round/shotshell (fragments at muzzle exit) with non-explosive submunitions
3.) Standard AC flak rounds = proximity-detonated Shrapnel shell with non-explosive submunitions

The fluff is completely FUBARRED with regards to the game mechanics however.

A shotgun mechanic in BT mechanics would have a smaller tohit bonus at close range with a bonus on the missile hit table. At longer range the tohit bonus would be bigger but with a penalty on the missile hit table.

Instead we have a static to hit bonus and static missile table roll ; the only thing that fits that behaviour is some kind of proximity fused round. Time gated or not. (Look up bofors 3P ammo ). Either the round releases submunitions at some range or it explodes forming some kind of kinetic penetrators ( EFP ).

Edited by dwwolf, 23 December 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

dwwolf, on 23 December 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

The fluff is completely FUBARRED with regards to the game mechanics however.

A shotgun mechanic in BT mechanics would have a smaller tohit bonus at close range with a bonus on the missile hit table. At longer range the tohit bonus would be bigger but with a penalty on the missile hit table.

Instead we have a static to hit bonus and static missile table roll ; the only thing that fits that behaviour is some kind of proximity fused round. Time gated or not. (Look up bofors 3P ammo ). Either the round releases submunitions at some range or it explodes forming some kind of kinetic penetrators ( EFP ).

game mechanics and fluff are both usually written by people with no comprehension of weaponry, realism, etc. Has been like that at least since old Gary Gygax came up with the idea that a shield was good for a whopping 1 pt toward AC. In battletech it's seen in the ridiculous weights of weapons, oddball mechanics likes the LB-X or Gauss producing essentially no heat. The whole concept of an ant-mech shotgun is really stupid to begin with. The only use would be against thin skinned targets.

[JC Daxion]

interesting idea..


Another thought, instead of a cone, give it a diameter radius, that stays the same as it travels..


Point blank they aren't bad.. at long range they spread too much.. Make it one size i think the weapon would be lots better, and probably an easy job to code


It could also do more damage verse armor, than internals.. The idea is that it would mash a whole section of armor,, but not pin-point the part behind it. AKA, you are hitting the entire side of a torso.. But the weapon is only up high for example.. Shave off that armor, but not necessarily hit the weapon

Bishop Steiner, on 23 December 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

game mechanics and fluff are both usually written by people with no comprehension of weaponry, realism, etc. Has been like that at least since old Gary Gygax came up with the idea that a shield was good for a whopping 1 pt toward AC.

You realize them's fighting words, about probably the best Pnp RPG's ever made... Back when race, class, and death meant something... and if you hit lvl 15 wizard you either were the luckiest man alive,,, or the smartest...

besides shields had other things they did, like bonus to arrows, and lets not forget magic bonuses or sheild type. Then again.. how many people today actually played The original Dungeons and Dragons from 76....

Edited by JC Daxion, 23 December 2015 - 10:01 AM.