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Lbx: A Proposal And Discussion

Balance Weapons

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#81 Mcgral18

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 06:50 PM

No one has posted the cEPPC splash code yet? I am disappoint Forum Warriors.
Entirety:
Spoiler


Important bit:
splashPercent="0.25"

It's not a set amount, but percentage of the total.
Also doesn't deal with the damage being lost to the void (instead of the CoF, so nothing really lost)

LB20x code:
Spoiler

Relevant bits
damage="1"
spread="1.40"
critChanceIncrease="0.14,0.08,0.03"
critDamMult="2.0"
numPerShot="20"/>


So, a 2.8M CoF at whatever distance...I don't entirely know how they're calculated, but they're a radius at some distance. Optimal?

Crit chance increase is what is sounds like, adding to the 3 separate crit pools, to total 67%.
CritDamMult is what multiplies the damage, so 1 times 2, to total 2 Crit damage per Crit (or 15% of that, 0.3 extra real damage, per Crit)
numPerShot is the number of pellets.

I'd prefer to just change the 'critDamMult' to 5, from 2. Goes from needing 5 Crits to destroy your typical item to 2, with the LB20x shooting 20 (of which, maybe 5 hit the component?)
Simple change, which doesn't affect pre-armour penetration, but also has the effect of dealing 2.5x more REAL damage per crit, up to 0.75 per crit (not quite 2x damage).
Well, 1+0.75x real damage, depending how many Crits hit. Roll a 2x (14%+8%=22%) you'll deal 2.5 real damage.


That said, PPC code is theoretically transferable, but some modifications might be needed on the back end. We don't get all the details (like damage falloff, for example) in the .XML, but just the inputs.

If you wanted the LB20x to deal 15 PP FLD, 23 total damage, you'd set the 'splashPercent' to 25%, same as it is for the PPC.
Not sure how the Crit multipliers would affect that, and armour hit modifiers aren't listed. Shouldn't be hard to implement, theoretically, but best to just have the base damage be X, and Structure damage be X*Y. Fewer calculations that way.

#82 Khobai

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:00 PM

Why would anyone ever use a CUAC20 ever again?

If the LBX20 does 15 damage to one location (25 on internals)? Not to mention the splash damage thats applied on top of that pinpoint damage.

Someone hasnt thought this plan through... The LBX20 should not be outright better than the CUAC20 or you did it wrong.

Edited by Khobai, 19 December 2015 - 07:05 PM.


#83 DrxAbstract

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:46 PM

View PostKhobai, on 19 December 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

Why would anyone ever use a CUAC20 ever again?

If the LBX20 does 15 damage to one location (25 on internals)? Not to mention the splash damage thats applied on top of that pinpoint damage.

Someone hasnt thought this plan through... The LBX20 should not be outright better than the CUAC20 or you did it wrong.

Because we want shotguns Khobai, shotguns! The glorious gut-grinding, limb-ripping, head-sploding shotgun!

#84 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:47 PM

View PostKhobai, on 19 December 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

Why would anyone ever use a CUAC20 ever again?

If the LBX20 does 15 damage to one location (25 on internals)? Not to mention the splash damage thats applied on top of that pinpoint damage.

Someone hasnt thought this plan through... The LBX20 should not be outright better than the CUAC20 or you did it wrong.



Three words: Rate of fire.

A C-UAC pumps out 20 damage twice in the space of time it takes to discharge one salvo from the LB20X. It also isn't that hard to hit a target with most of it on the same part unless they're a particularly small or fast target. Against assaults or heavies, or anyone who is moving remotely towards you, it will hit for its full, and should it double-tap it will hit for a heck of a lot more than a single LB20X dealing 15 damage at the point of impact.

The trade off should be, and would be, hit hard against armor and internals at a very high rate of fire, or hit for slightly less against armor at a far slower rate of fire but absolutely explode any exposed internals.

The better question is "why take a Gauss Rifle?" Bulk and maximum range, which, even with this change, the LB20X won't have anywhere near the range of a Gauss Rifle, and will still occupy a lot more space, physically.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 07:48 PM.


#85 Khobai

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:51 PM

Quote

Three words: Rate of fire.


Except high rate of fire is pretty much always a bad thing in this game. It means you have to give more facetime to the enemy. it means you cant dodge into cover or torso twist away between cooldowns.

Thats one reason the LB20X would be outright superior to the UAC20. Because youd only have to expose yourself for 1-2 seconds tops to fire off one devastating shot then duck into cover or torso twist away which would drastically increase your survivability. While the UAC20 has to face the enemy for several seconds to compete in same location damage.

This is one of the main reasons why laser vomit is so common. Because the properties of lasers allow you fire high damage alphas while minimizing the face time you give to the enemy. Its also why gauss had to be nerfed.

Quote

A C-UAC pumps out 20 damage twice in the space of time it takes to discharge one salvo from the LB20X.


Except the damage is much more spread out due to being split up into 5 point increments rather than doing 15-25 damage to one location. Not to mention the CUAC20 has a rather high jam rate (highest of all the UACs) while the LB20X will never jam.

You'd have to hit the same location on an enemy 4-5 times with the CUAC20 in order to equal the lethalty of one LB20X shot under the OP's proposed changes. Which means giving way more face time to the enemy. And if the UAC20 jams you may not even do any real damage at all.

So yes the CUAC20 would be outright worse. Again this has not been fully thought out... bad idea is bad.

Quote

Because we want shotguns Khobai, shotguns! The glorious gut-grinding, limb-ripping, head-sploding shotgun!


But the LBX isnt a shotgun. Its more like an aerial detonated flechette canister. it would actually make more sense if it fired in a cylinder shape rather than a cone shape, so its spread doesnt increase with range, since the LBX is actually supposed to outrange standard ACs.

the closest thing to a shotgun in battletech is probably the snubnose PPC. its like a PPC in sawed off shotgun form.

Edited by Khobai, 19 December 2015 - 08:10 PM.


#86 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:54 PM

View PostKhobai, on 19 December 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:


except high rate of fire is pretty much always bad thing in this game. It means you have to give more facetime to the enemy. it means you cant dodge into cover or torso twist away between cooldowns.


That's one dimensional thinking. Alternatively, consider this: The time you spend beating them into tar is time they don't WANT to stare at you. Further, the total burst duration of a UAC20 is about 0.4 seconds. Less than half a second. Most people's reaction times are about 0.2 seconds, meaning by the time they realize what is happening, the speed in which they can actually torso twist away will be insufficient to effectively roll it easily. If they try and face you after that salvo, congrats, here's another 20 damage.

One of the hard lessons I used to teach cadets is that while armor rolling is important, being on the offensive is even more so. You don't win fights by getting your face kicked in.

Edit:

Unless you're this guy:

Posted Image

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 07:59 PM.


#87 Strum Wealh

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:54 PM

View Postadamts01, on 19 December 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:


That doesn't help.... Please tell me what it's all about in "lore". I know what a shotgun is, and I hear it always referred to as such, so that's what I'm going off of.

Edit: People always talk about slug ammo and such. Then it would turn in to just another AC. I like the Idea of a shotgun in game. Not an AC that damages like a PPC. Not to mention, shooting right between the legs at 100m would be a total miss with your system..... that's not cool.

"This weapon is closely related to the common AC/10. The design of the LB 10-X uses several types of lightweight, rapid-heat-dissipation alloys. Though this makes the weapon costlier, its lighter weight and need for fewer heat sinks easily makes up for the expense. Another important feature of the LB 10-X is its Mercury-IV fire control equipment. This electronic system gives the cannon a better hit probability at all ranges, as well as extending its maximum effective range by 20 percent.
In addition to firing standard Dual-Purpose Armor-Defeating Rounds, the weapon may also fire a special Cluster Round that acts much like an anti-BattleMech shotgun. After being fired, the round breaks up into several smaller submunitions. This improves the chance of striking a critical location on the target, but also reduces the overall damage done and spreads it out over the entire target area rather than concentrating it in one location."
(Technical Readout: 2750, pg. 08)

"An improvement over the common autocannon, the LB-X makes use lf light, heat-dissipating alloys to reduce weight and heat buildup. These materials make the weapon more expensive than the standard autocannon, but its advantages outweigh the higher cost."
"The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller submunitions. This improves the attacker’s chances of striking a critical location but disperses total damage by spreading hits over the target area rather than concentrating the damage on one location. Cluster munitions can be used only in LB-X autocannon, not in standard or Ultra autocannon types."
(Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised), pg. 132)

"An improvement on the common autocannon intended to expand the weapon’s role into anti-vehicle and anti-infantry work, the LB-X makes use of light, heat-dissipating alloys to reduce its weight and thermal buildup. These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons. However, the slight range increase and the ability to switch between standard-style bursts and explosive cluster munitions - both specially developed for this weapon system - more than mitigate this higher cost."
(TechManual, pg. 207)

"At first, the Star League regarded the autocannon as a technological stopping point, with little reason to improve the design any further. With the continued spread of BattleMech technology, and the crucible of the Reunification War, Star League researchers on Terra began development on new autocannon technology in 2595 with the LB 10-X autocannon under the project name CROATOAN. A highly advanced weapon system, the LB-X could switch between ammunition like standard autocannon rounds or fire a shotgun style round that would split into hundreds of explosive sub-munitions. This style of submunition was particularly effective against vehicles, but also proved effective for short-range anti-aircraft flak, and for dispersing attacking infantry."
(Era Report: 2750, pg. 98)

"This LBX autocannon has Cluster loads."
"Shotgun shells. It'll sand all the armor off a foe."
(Natasha Kerensky to Phelan Kell, Blood Legacy, chapter 19)

There are more examples, but that should get the gist of it across. ;)

Basically: the LB-X autocannon family in BT lore/canon is notable for its inclusion of the Mercury-IV FCS (a fire control system built into the gun itself that interfaces with the 'Mech's main targeting and tracking systems; the Mercury IV FCS is the component to which the increased effective range of the LB-X family is attributed), and its inclusion of a dual-feed system that allows it to switch between a burst of high-explosive armor-piercing shells (which, despite the appellation used when referring to the LB-X, are not true slugs like those fired by real-world shotguns) and shotshell-like canister rounds filled with explosive bomblet/grenade-like submunitions.

#88 LordNothing

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:56 PM

more pellets, less damage each. i kind of think its a little ridiculous to have an lb2 fire 2 pellets. you would get better damage distribution if you did 8 pellets at 0.25 damage each. lb5 would have 10 0.5 damage pellets and so on.

Edited by LordNothing, 19 December 2015 - 08:03 PM.


#89 Wintersdark

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:01 PM

View Postshopsmart, on 19 December 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

Tried an LBX 20 for first time. Holy. I love IS LB10 on enforcer that is quirked to reduce its spread and it feels right. A choke needs to be put on all the lbx in general OR give us the option to switch to cluster or solid.

We can not, and will not, get the ability to switch ammo types. They've tried, it's just not working out. So, drop that.

Tighter pellets doesn't really mean much. The LBX as it stands is a terrible weapon; far worse than a regular AC10 in all situations, and the AC10 isn't a very good weapon as it stands.

The LBX could be argued to be decent on some heavily quirked chassis (such as how the CN9-D was) but that had nothing whatsoever to do with the LBX and everything to do with insanely huge quirks pushing it's DPS up some 3x.

#90 Matthew Ace

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:04 PM

Based on OP, my only disapproval to the mechanics is that nothing is done to preserve/emulate the tradeoff of Cluster rounds trading precision (how pinpoint the damage is) for accuracy (how easy it is to hit an enemy). Otherwise I have no issue with it.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 19 December 2015 - 08:04 PM.


#91 Khobai

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:11 PM

Quote

The time you spend beating them into tar is time they don't WANT to stare at you.


how are you gonna shoot at me when im behind a rock? The only time you can shoot at me is when im shooting at you. And if im using an LBX that does 15-25 damage to one location. And youre using a CUAC that does 5 damage in spread out bursts?

Who do you think is gonna win? its not gonna be you.

Assuming pilot skill and all other factors are the same, pinpoint damage will always beat spread damage, even spread damage with higher DPS. Thats why an ISAC20 is outright better than a CUAC20. Thats just an immutable fact of the game.

Edited by Khobai, 19 December 2015 - 08:15 PM.


#92 Wintersdark

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:14 PM

View PostKhobai, on 19 December 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:


how are you gonna shoot at me when im behind a rock? The only time you can shoot at me is when im shooting at you. And if im using an LBX that does 25 damage to one location. And youre using a CUAC that does 5 damage in spread out bursts?

Who do you think is gonna win? its not gonna be you.

Huh? An LBX that does 25 damage to one location, IF armor is gone. The CUAC that does 40 damage to one location, armored or not, if you can aim. Even if you spread that a bit (not much; it's a 0.4s volley), it's 40 damage vs. 25.

Edited by Wintersdark, 19 December 2015 - 08:15 PM.


#93 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:15 PM

View PostKhobai, on 19 December 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:


how are you gonna shoot at me when im behind a rock? The only time you can shoot at me is when im shooting at you. And if im using an LBX that does 25 damage to one location. And youre using a CUAC that does 5 damage in spread out bursts?

Who do you think is gonna win? its not gonna be you.

Pinpoint damage will always beat spread damage, even spread damage with higher DPS. Thats just an immutable fact of the game.


You are detailing an extremely ideal situation where you can magically appear, shoot, and get behind cover fast enough I can't doubletap. More realistically, if you are close enough to unload on me I am close enough to unload on you. You fire for 15 damage. I fire for 20 in four shells, let's say somehow only half my salvo hits where I want it to, that's ok, I double tap again and still only manage a 50% clustering. 20 to your 15. Your bonus damage only functions once my armor is breached, but right now your armor is in worse shape overall.

Now, once my armor is breached, let's say both of us are stripped of armor, same situation. You would deal 24 damage to my 20 and be ahead. This is where the LB damage advantage kicks in. Not until the armor is stripped. Again, assuming that double tap unload is only hitting where I want it half the time, which, quite frankly, is unusually low accuracy.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 08:24 PM.


#94 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:17 PM

View PostMatthew Ace, on 19 December 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

Based on OP, my only disapproval to the mechanics is that nothing is done to preserve/emulate the tradeoff of Cluster rounds trading precision (how pinpoint the damage is) for accuracy (how easy it is to hit an enemy). Otherwise I have no issue with it.

Pulse lasers don't preserve the accuracy bonus form TT either. I'd take range for short range "accuracy" boost... since at the ranges you are realistically hitting with a focused enough shot to be worth taking, you should be able to hit almost as easy with a standards AC (aka sub 350 meters)

I'm more into effectiveness than my Accuracy % looking better. Current mechanic is crap all the way around.

#95 Alex Morgaine

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:17 PM

View PostRouken, on 19 December 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

If LB-X weapons used the Clan ER PPC splash mechanic, I would actually use them.


Meh, I'd just drop a ton of ammo and go to normal ac 10 (is), turning it into a weaker (C)ERPPC would just make it weaker then it currently is. At least the flak-10 gives suppression and some fast mech leg hit ability. If they could make a function to swap in combat it's spread from being effective at about 300ish meters with current damage bonuses to 0 spread at the cost of all the damage bonuses lbx has at the moment...

#96 Wintersdark

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:31 PM

Further, the whole "Light Mechs Legs" thing that otherwise smart people keep bringing up?

Come on.

1) Just hit the legs. You're not bad players, you know if you aim a bit higher, you pretty much can't miss them - the hips don't move.

2) LBX doing ~3-5 damage to each leg vs. a UAC20 firing 8 5 point damage slugs? The UAC20 is a far better machine for crushing light mech legs. Because the LBX cannot do full damage to legs, even at very close ranges. Not even 30% damage. The UAC20 can do 40 damage to one leg with a well aimed volley.



I just can not bring myself to believe how skilled players are advocating for a weapon to remain terrible "because they want to do damage when they miss a leg" despite the fact that that same effect ensures that they cannot ever do full damage to that leg.

An LBX10 fired at a lights legs will never do 10 damage.

LBX's are terrible weapons for legging lights. Terrible. Be less bad instead.


There is NO REASON to use an LBX right now, except that it's awesome and fun(This is a perfectly valid reason! But be aware that you're doing it because it's fun, not because it's somehow good). But it is inarguably a sh***y weapon if you're not incredibly terrible at the game.

It boggles my mind that we still need to have this discussion today.

#97 FupDup

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:37 PM

It looks like it's that time yet again...

Posted Image

Never gets old. Posted Image

#98 Wintersdark

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:41 PM

View PostFupDup, on 19 December 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

It looks like it's that time yet again...

Posted Image

Never gets old. Posted Image

I should just post this instead of getting all worked up and ranty. Thanks, Fup :)

#99 DrxAbstract

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:43 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 19 December 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

Further, the whole "Light Mechs Legs" thing that otherwise smart people keep bringing up?

Come on.

1) Just hit the legs. You're not bad players, you know if you aim a bit higher, you pretty much can't miss them - the hips don't move.

2) LBX doing ~3-5 damage to each leg vs. a UAC20 firing 8 5 point damage slugs? The UAC20 is a far better machine for crushing light mech legs. Because the LBX cannot do full damage to legs, even at very close ranges. Not even 30% damage. The UAC20 can do 40 damage to one leg with a well aimed volley.



I just can not bring myself to believe how skilled players are advocating for a weapon to remain terrible "because they want to do damage when they miss a leg" despite the fact that that same effect ensures that they cannot ever do full damage to that leg.

An LBX10 fired at a lights legs will never do 10 damage.

LBX's are terrible weapons for legging lights. Terrible. Be less bad instead.


There is NO REASON to use an LBX right now, except that it's awesome and fun(This is a perfectly valid reason! But be aware that you're doing it because it's fun, not because it's somehow good). But it is inarguably a sh***y weapon if you're not incredibly terrible at the game.

It boggles my mind that we still need to have this discussion today.

I ran into a woman the other day that thought George Washington was awesome and hoped to meet him some day... No amount of what ever it is I see on these forums will surprise me.

#100 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:56 PM

View PostFrosty Brand, on 19 December 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

Meh, I'd just drop a ton of ammo and go to normal ac 10 (is), turning it into a weaker (C)ERPPC would just make it weaker then it currently is. At least the flak-10 gives suppression and some fast mech leg hit ability. If they could make a function to swap in combat it's spread from being effective at about 300ish meters with current damage bonuses to 0 spread at the cost of all the damage bonuses lbx has at the moment...


I'd much rather LB-X weapons be at least marginally usable.





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