316 replies to this topic

[Darlith]

I kind of like this idea though I would miss the notion that a slightly missed shot still might hit a couple pellets. But honestly I'd like anything that makes the LBX useful within its marked range. Right now at the edges of optimal range it takes something in the order of 4 tons of ammo to kill the awesome in the training grounds, and we all know how wide awesomes are.

[Pariah Devalis]

Navid A1, on 19 December 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

detecting the impacting location is the thing that makes this problematic...
with current hit detection (lets say a perfect hit detection even), i can afford shooting towards a running light's legs and get several pellet hits.

with your proposal, its either a hit (with simulated spread) or no hit at all... even if the graphical FX pellets show hits on the target.

There would not be any pellets, if they did this. Simply swapping the current haze of BBs with a standard AC projectile. Yes, it would be a 1 or 0 situation. Hit or miss. However, edge cases only seem to benefit from that spread.

[Navid A1]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

There would not be any pellets, if they did this. Simply swapping the current haze of BBs with a standard AC projectile. Yes, it would be a 1 or 0 situation. Hit or miss. However, edge cases only seem to benefit from that spread.

i don't think so

an example edge case: LBX brawling (the area that LBX should shine)
close range brawl with enemy mech with crit CT and healthy STs.

- with current LBX system, you can hit the general torso area and have multiple pellet hits to the CT and possibly a kill

- with your proposal, LBX would be no different from a normal AC... you may hit the arms and STs several times before you can do any significant damage to the CT.

Edited by Navid A1, 19 December 2015 - 02:21 PM.

[CtrlAltWheee]

+1

[Pariah Devalis]

Navid A1, on 19 December 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

i don't think so

an example edge case: LBX brawling (the area that LBX should shine)
close range brawl with enemy mech with crit CT and healthy STs.

- with current LBX system, you can hit the general torso area and have multiple pellet hits to the CT and possibly a kill

- with your proposal, LBX would be no different from a normal AC... you may hit the arms and STs several times before you can do any significant damage to the CT.

If that's the only problem, than my solution still solves far more than it breaks with no need to look at a chart to understand it. It solves the range issue, the consistency issue, and the viability issue. It fails at incidental spread and hurts people who cannot aim well.

I don't see the last one as a legitimate problem, though the incidental spread is nice. So, three pros to one con. LB is supposed to be a flexible weapon system, it was never meant to only work at point blank range. It was supposed to be useful for seeking out weak spots in an enemy mech's armor.

I do appreciate you have a similar conceptual idea, however. I just don't think we will agree on each other's interpretations, is all.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 19 December 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

Microprose made MW3.

Microsoft made MW4 (until MekTek took over much later).

I don't remember MW4 being a buckshot, it always felt like a single slug to me...although I think the slug's damage increased as you got closer.

http://www.gamefaqs....ance/faqs/14575
closest I could find to my original in game descroiton form mech lab, etc
compiled directly from the game and info book back in 2003, pre Mektek.

icon sorta indicates cluster, too.

I'd copypasta from my mechlab, but...windows 10 does not like mw4.

[Ohmlink]

I'm in favor of this change, the AC10 is already better in about every single way when it comes to use. Sure those near miss shots won't count anymore but as soon as you're able to hit specific components pretty much every single weapon in the game becomes better.

[InspectorG]

Darlith, on 19 December 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

I kind of like this idea though I would miss the notion that a slightly missed shot still might hit a couple pellets. But honestly I'd like anything that makes the LBX useful within its marked range.

But thats also a problem.

What is the optimal range?

In BT, the weapon/crit system worked VERY differently.
BT you WANTED spread to increase odds of hitting an open component and the 1 damage was all that was needed to get a usually very-damaging crit.

MWO, you do NOT want spread, because you want that damage focused as much as possible.

So the optimal/max range in BT isnt a good reflection of what would work better in MWO...

Far as 'shotguns' go:

We have SRMs for up very close but if boated you get lots damage for lots heat/ high ammo cost.

IMO, LBX should be good/tight to about 300-350m after that spreads out. LBX should be brawl-ish but some want a bit more range option i guess.

[Summon3r]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

http://www.gamefaqs....ance/faqs/14575
closest I could find to my original in game descroiton form mech lab, etc
compiled directly from the game and info book back in 2003, pre Mektek.

icon sorta indicates cluster, too.

I'd copypasta from my mechlab, but...windows 10 does not like mw4.

MW4 lbx was an absolutely vicious brawling weapon, but hten again you could also over whelm a mechs gyro and knock it over that depth of play doesnt exist here.

golly an MW4 lbx20 would be just AWS

[DrxAbstract]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

My Name is Bishop Steiner. And I approve this Message.

Of course you do, he said quite clearly you were a collaborator so shoo you pesky forum monger.

[Darlith]

InspectorG, on 19 December 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

But thats also a problem.

What is the optimal range?

In BT, the weapon/crit system worked VERY differently.
BT you WANTED spread to increase odds of hitting an open component and the 1 damage was all that was needed to get a usually very-damaging crit.

MWO, you do NOT want spread, because you want that damage focused as much as possible.

So the optimal/max range in BT isnt a good reflection of what would work better in MWO...

Far as 'shotguns' go:

We have SRMs for up very close but if boated you get lots damage for lots heat/ high ammo cost.

IMO, LBX should be good/tight to about 300-350m after that spreads out. LBX should be brawl-ish but some want a bit more range option i guess.

The optimal is the number it says next to the weapon when I'm in a match. I expect all pellets to land on an assault mech within that as a minimum, as it is that isn't how it works on the LB 10x, and you can forget getting all 10 pellets on anything smaller than an assault mech. As it stands in game the spread isn't good at 300-350 either of course, last time I tried it at those ranges it still took a ludicrous amount of ammo to drop any target.

That number next to it sadly just means the engine makes each pellet do 1 damage each within it, same as the number next to SRM means they disappear after that, and nothing to do with effective useage. I want that number to be a bit more indicative of useful ranges but tightening the spread enough to get all the pellets on a reasonably large target up to its optimal range, or in other words srm6 lands all 6 missiles on a heavy at 270m, an lbx10 gets all pellets on a heavy at 450m if aimed dead center, barring of course your target moving or twisting. Even with that it means it would take seriously large numbers of shots for either weapon to drop a target at their optimals because you will be scrubbing every last bit of armor off the mech before you ever get the final shot on the CT.

[DrxAbstract]

InspectorG, on 19 December 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

But thats also a problem.

What is the optimal range?

In BT, the weapon/crit system worked VERY differently.
BT you WANTED spread to increase odds of hitting an open component and the 1 damage was all that was needed to get a usually very-damaging crit.

MWO, you do NOT want spread, because you want that damage focused as much as possible.

So the optimal/max range in BT isnt a good reflection of what would work better in MWO...

Far as 'shotguns' go:

We have SRMs for up very close but if boated you get lots damage for lots heat/ high ammo cost.

IMO, LBX should be good/tight to about 300-350m after that spreads out. LBX should be brawl-ish but some want a bit more range option i guess.

LB-10X
0-90 Meters: Hits one location, severely increased crit chance.
91-200 Meters: Hits 3 locations, normal crit chance.
201-450 Meters: Hits 5 locations(if applicable), normal crit chance.
450+ Meters: Hits 5 locations(if applicable), below-normal crit chance.

Voila!

[Malagant]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Can't say I really care if it "infringes" on ERPPC behavior...in fact I am lobbying to get that removed form C-ERPPC, tbh.

Many weapons infringe on the "behaviour" of others. It's a superior way to give it a spread effect, but also maintain its usefulness at range.

Good idea all around, the question I would have, is which animation for the gun firing would we then go with? Spread shot, which would likely expand its ability to reliably hit at range? Or more of a standar IS AC shot animation? Or would they have to create a new animation for it? Doesn't really matter to me, but for hit registration, I can see where the spread could be highly problematic.

[InspectorG]

Darlith, on 19 December 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

The optimal is the number it says next to the weapon when I'm in a match. I expect all pellets to land on an assault mech within that as a minimum, as it is that isn't how it works on the LB 10x, and you can forget getting all 10 pellets on anything smaller than an assault mech. As it stands in game the spread isn't good at 300-350 either of course, last time I tried it at those ranges it still took a ludicrous amount of ammo to drop any target.

Problem is: in BT you rolled(randomized) to see how many pellets hit regardless of range. Rarely ever did all hit and it was usually half to 2/3 if memory serves...

PGI didnt factor that in.

DrxAbstract, on 19 December 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

LB-10X
0-90 Meters: Hits one location, severely increased crit chance.
91-200 Meters: Hits 3 locations, normal crit chance.
201-450 Meters: Hits 5 locations(if applicable), normal crit chance.
450+ Meters: Hits 5 locations(if applicable), below-normal crit chance.

Voila!

So what you are saying is aim/randomized pellets are no longer an issue?

Enemy CT is cored and a leg hit = possible death?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

If LB-X weapons used the Clan ER PPC splash mechanic, I would actually use them.

[DrxAbstract]

InspectorG, on 19 December 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

So what you are saying is aim/randomized pellets are no longer an issue?

Depends on your interpretation of the 'issue' relative to this 'solution'.

Quote

Enemy CT is cored and a leg hit = possible death?

No. "If applicable" means only the impacted section and directly adjacent sections. If you hit the leg with the main shot, 1 portion of the 2 or 4 'split damage' goes to the Side Torso while the remaining 1 to 3 are nullified.

[Sereglach]

Personally, I like the shotgun effect LBX autocannons. I'd rather see the choke (that's the way a shotgun spreads pellets, for non-shooters) on the autocannons tightened up so that at "Optimal" range the pellets are still tight enough to only hit the torso of an "average" medium mech (so maybe a 3-4m spread?). So yeah, at "Maximum" range it'll be a rain of random pellets. However, within that Optimal range, you could really rip up just about any mech with exposed internals.

Admittedly, as much as I love my twin LBX-10 Hunchback IIC, the fact that it'll pepper an entire Dire Wolf or King Crab silhouette at "Optimal" range does annoy me a bit. I've thought long and hard about running dual LBX-20's, but the spread on that is just too much to deal with in their current tuning. Again, though, if they just increased the choke then I'd be perfectly happy with their current shooting method.

That's also just a simple variable tuning, with no programming or engineering required.

[Navid A1]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

If that's the only problem, than my solution still solves far more than it breaks with no need to look at a chart to understand it. It solves the range issue, the consistency issue, and the viability issue. It fails at incidental spread and hurts people who cannot aim well.

I don't see the last one as a legitimate problem, though the incidental spread is nice. So, three pros to one con. LB is supposed to be a flexible weapon system, it was never meant to only work at point blank range. It was supposed to be useful for seeking out weak spots in an enemy mech's armor.

I do appreciate you have a similar conceptual idea, however. I just don't think we will agree on each other's interpretations, is all.

Then i present you the AC10 in all its glory... all pros, no Cons!... does full damage too!

if its going to be a single projectile, then why not take an AC10 and do a full 10 damage... you can crit with that weapon from time to time too!

[Khobai]

I think LBXs are fine how they are now

they just need to increase the damage per pellet to 1.2 and see how that works out

[shopsmart]

Tried an LBX 20 for first time. Holy. I love IS LB10 on enforcer that is quirked to reduce its spread and it feels right. A choke needs to be put on all the lbx in general OR give us the option to switch to cluster or solid.