316 replies to this topic

[Osric Lancaster]

Ovion, on 16 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Turning it into 'an off number AC with splash damage' doesn't fit the weapons lore or feel, and would remove some of precious little variety we have in weapons.

Agreed.

Bishop Steiner, on 16 May 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

you start seeing through armor crits you will will get blown away by the tornado of butthurt that will descend on these forums.

And Comps will starts spraying and praying everyone in MAXI-LBX machines.

No
freaking
thank you

Oh, I know the butt-hurt is a real factor in why we'll never see criticals or crit-seeking weapons applied in any serious way, and that's a goddamn shame, really. And no, competitive teams wouldn't use it. Shield arms would be great for shutting down LB-X crits and. . . come on, with 0.5 TAC damage you need to place what, 30? 50? pellets on an armored section with two critical locations before cumulative critical damage stands a reasonable chance of knocking out a single component? Anyone sees you hailing RNGesus with volleys of LB-X fire at range is just going to plant a PPC in your brain and call it a day.

Ugh, crit hp buffering is dumb anyway. Critical health? Sure. But the number of critical items you have in a 'Mech shouldn't effect an item's chances of taking a hit and a weapon's critical damage shouldn't directly correlate to it's actual damage. Roll a location. Nothing there? Critical passes through and does nothing. Crit with an AC/10? 7 crit damage. Crit with an LB-X pellet? 2 crit damage. Play with those numbers. Your lower arm actuator blows? No more aiming to the right for you.

The lack of a real critical system in MWO is the saddest thing next to the lack of a real heat system.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 16 May 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Raso]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 May 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

Depends on the build, if the mech is built for SRM range, then a weapon being useful outside its main firepower really isn't that useful.

Way too situational.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 May 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

and that's the danger basing everything on what happens in Compland though....really out of 280 mechs...what a whopping dozen + see use anyhow? So by that perspective, why not just deepsix everything else?

Well let's be honest, finding a use for 280+ mechs is impossible. Even if you had some redundancies, there is still a reason some games like Overwatch which try and create a unique style of play keep the number of playable characters limited to a certain number. That said, if balance was better overall, we may have a more useful number of mechs.

Raso, on 16 May 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Way too situational.

So is the AC10 to begin with, the difference being the LBX10 has less competition as a splat supplemental ballistic compared to the AC10 which competes with Gauss/AC5/UAC5s.

[Raso]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 May 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

So is the AC10 to begin with, the difference being the LBX10 has less competition as a splat supplemental ballistic compared to the AC10 which competes with Gauss/AC5/UAC5s.

I disagree. The AC10 is useful at mid range, close range and competent at longer ranges. It has a great heat management great ammo per ton and is the only AC other than the AC20 where it's worth it to only use 1 (and it leaves room for other weapons and equipment to boot!).

The AC10 fills a role and it fills it well but it is far from situation. It is not a perfect weapon but no weapon should be perfect for balance sake.

[wanderer]

Consider this: Why is a weapon system that's supposed to be effective at ranges far outside of 300m useless?

Because it's given the worst flaw- it scatters damage.

It should deliver damage across the target, but what it shouldn't be doing is losing damage potential inside it's stated range. An LB-X should be capable of hitting the same way at 0m as it does at the edge of it's effective range, and only THEN lose damage.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Raso, on 16 May 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

I disagree. The AC10 is useful at mid range, close range and competent at longer ranges.

It's mediocre to solid at all ranges, which is its problem for anything but PUG play. Which to me screams situational, just like several weapons in this game.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

....after slogging through ten pages of this topic, and I'll freely admit I haven't read beyond page 10, I'm left with a bit of a puzzle. I'd like to say a question, but I think it's a little more complicated than that. I'll try to phrase it as a small quantity of questions.


Given that, both in terms of implementation in the original tabletop and in terms of implementation within this game, the LB-X style autocannon function better and are best used as secondary weaponry, it seems kind of pressing that not only are they being considered by most of the arguments I've seen here as a primary weapon, but also the current pinpoint alpha-kill oriented state of the game devalues the use of anything that could conceivably be a 'secondary weapon' to begin with. On top of this, PGI has a stated stance against alpha-striking as a predominant method of play.

Shouldn't it be considered more pressing to render the game away from an alpha-strike focused style of play first, and then concern ourselves with the functionality of intended-secondary weapons after that has been accomplished, when we can afford to look at them as having the role that they were intended to have to begin with? After all, a large part of the reason why 'crit-boosted' weapons don't even matter for the most part right now is that TTK is so low and resultant equipment destruction before death is so rare that having that bonus crit chance doesn't mean anything.

Failing that, why is the majority of the examination of the LB-X class cannon in a vacuum where all other weapons are for some reason not being used? The proportion of 'mechs that enter the game with only one weapon is, if not zero, so low as to be hilarious. I understand that it's being considered as an alternative to an AC/10 because it fits a ballistic slot and has similar tonnage, but why is that the only possible position being considered for it? This puzzles me.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 16 May 2016 - 03:46 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 16 May 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Shouldn't it be considered more pressing to render the game away from an alpha-strike focused style of play first

We are currently on the verge of a dakka meta, anyone who still thinks all this game boils down to is massive alpha strikes is massively misinformed. Even then, AC10s (LB or otherwise) are outclassed by other dakka, mainly AC5s/UAC5s.

[Neput Z34]

Ovion, on 16 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

LBX's can be good used correctly. Sure they may want a little buff, and those of us that do do well with the things rejoice at that prospect.

As a former practitioner of the Mostly* LBX ILYA. The only correct way to have good matches in it was to hide / "sandbag" / "not trade", so only to try and "come back form behind". Hardly a wining strategy.

Before anyone says "But Why the LBX, they are trash"?
Yes they were and still are mostly trash / garbage, but in the case of ILYA, with 2 low slung ballistic arms. " IF I AM GOING TO SHOT DIRT, I MIGHT AS WELL PLOW FIELDS WITH IT!", but I digress.

In short LBX needs a "buff" in order to be considered as an option to other Ballistic weapons and / or SRMs.
Weather it is a damage buff per pellet or C-ERPPC style damage spread, either one would make an LBX more viable then it currently is.

To all those who say that LBX is fine as is: Care to share what you are drinking?

P.S. OMG I have "Poked the Bear", "Started a Fire" and "Created a Monster" also "Don't drink the Cool-Aid man"

[Brizna]

I honestly think that LBs should have a mechanic similar to that of Gauss cannons, the longer you hold the fire button the narrower it is the spread to the point that if you hold it for 0.5s or so it fires a single bullet-like burst. That way it would have cons and pros to regular ACs because they would keep the higher crit chance but to concentrate it in long ranges you would need more time like with a Gauss, on the other hand in close quarters you could just tap the fire button and get a shotgun like effect.

As an added benefit this solution is lore compatible.

Edited by Brizna, 16 May 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 May 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

We are currently on the verge of a dakka meta

Based on what? I mean, it could be a matter of what times of day I play as much as anything else, but I certainly can't remember getting rapidfire-autocannoned down with any consistency by anything not an HBK-IIC for [insert arbitrary but fairly long period of time here]. I definitely remember taking a number of dual-gauss hits, massive batches of large lasers at once, and occasional small pulsings by lights (and the odd stormcrow) over the last [same arbitrary but fairly long period of time; certainly less than a year, but definitely more than a couple of months]. And running afoul of at least as many SRM HBKs as AC HBKs.

The only other exception that really comes to mind is the 5-AC/5 Mauler.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 16 May 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[Raso]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 May 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

It's mediocre to solid at all ranges, which is its problem for anything but PUG play. Which to me screams situational, just like several weapons in this game.

Please, in comp people only use the same 3 or 4 highly flexible, weapons over and over and over. Weapons need to be more situational across the board with solid pros and cons. That way it's far less likely that there are only ever a handful of viable weapons and mechs to choose from, but that's a whole other can of worms.

If you want to start talking comp play viability vs PUG the problem is that there is a small number of weapons that are universally useful and produce amazing results at nearly all ranges. Balancing for comp is meaningless because they are the enemy of diversity. They will find the single best weapon, boat it, and never use anything else and that's the truth. They could balance the LBX and the comp people would still find the best 3 guns and only use them all the time even if all it gave was a fraction of extra DPS or front load damage because comp players are the assassins of joy.

The AC10 is far superior to the LBX10 and if the AC10 is a trash as you claim it to be then the LBX10 is that much worse and that is all the more reason it needs a buff. Heck, buff them both.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Raso, on 16 May 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Please, in comp people only use the same 3 or 4 highly flexible, weapons over and over and over.

SRMs are not "highly flexible" and neither is LPL/ML vomit, but please, continue talking about **** you don't know about.

Weapons that see some use currently in comp:
Limited Use:
* AC20/AC10/LBX10
* cUAC5/cUAC10
* cERPPC/cGauss/Gauss
* ERLL

Heavy Use:
* LPL/cLPL
* ERML/ML/MPL
* UAC5/AC5
* SRMs
* Streaks
* cSPL

Raso, on 16 May 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Balancing for comp is meaningless because they are the enemy of diversity. They will find the single best weapon, boat it, and never use anything else and that's the truth.

You've got the other way around. Short and extreme range require more coordination to pull off, which is why both are so rare in PUG queue, its also while the mid-range builds are almost always the strongest builds to take in PUGs, granted they can be strong in comp play as well, but they aren't always the goto builds.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 May 2016 - 04:09 PM.

[Ovion]

Neput Z34, on 16 May 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

As a former practitioner of the Mostly* LBX ILYA. The only correct way to have good matches in it was to hide / "sandbag" / "not trade", so only to try and "come back form behind". Hardly a wining strategy.

Before anyone says "But Why the LBX, they are trash"?
Yes they were and still are mostly trash / garbage, but in the case of ILYA, with 2 low slung ballistic arms. " IF I AM GOING TO SHOT DIRT, I MIGHT AS WELL PLOW FIELDS WITH IT!", but I digress.

In short LBX needs a "buff" in order to be considered as an option to other Ballistic weapons and / or SRMs.
Weather it is a damage buff per pellet or C-ERPPC style damage spread, either one would make an LBX more viable then it currently is.

To all those who say that LBX is fine as is: Care to share what you are drinking?

P.S. OMG I have "Poked the Bear", "Started a Fire" and "Created a Monster" also "Don't drink the Cool-Aid man"

I can face tank, trade, poke, go toe-to-toe with things and walk away on top.

That screen shake is nasty, saves your life up close, and I can guide opponents at range using it

And the long range LBX 30 of my 6x5 LBX Dire can just walk through enemy teams.

[Raso]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 May 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

We are currently on the verge of a dakka meta,

OMG is this guy serious? Can we can another, hardcore, Tier 1 try-hard comp-meister in here to confirm this? Because this is at odds with literally everything I hear on the forums. I mean even the pugiest pug trash on here talking about how awesome MGs are if you boat 7 of them on a Shadow Cat knows it's all about the low beam duration duration laser alpha because it's low skill/hit scan/high damage qualities remove all of the randomness of ballistic travel time and thus allow for the sort of "high level play" that comp layers just gobble up!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Raso, on 16 May 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

Because this is at odds with literally everything I hear on the forums.

That's because most comp players don't post here, and those that do get drowned out by people like you who are misinformed trying to say otherwise because of second-hand misinformation.

Gas has wasted many hours trying to argue this exact sort of thing on the forums and still people don't believe him.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 May 2016 - 04:26 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Raso, on 16 May 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

OMG is this guy serious? Can we can another, hardcore, Tier 1 try-hard comp-meister in here to confirm this? Because this is at odds with literally everything I hear on the forums.

You have, literally, at least two "Tier 1 try-hard comp-meisters" in here saying this.

[HerrRed]

Regarding Dakka meta, anyone who has tried boating Dakka knows this is true. The amount of DPS you can have with UACs is scary and with multiples, even if one jams, the others keep beating. Just think that a daka DW can put 80 damage in the air in a very short period of time. That is the armour of any mech under 70 tons off. And some people like to use more back armour so it is not uncommon to see a mad cat being opened like a tincan with it. And multiple UAC5 also put between 40 and 60 DMG on the air in a very short time. That is more than the alpha of.many a mech.

Regarding the lbx, for me the simplest fix would be to have the shots as a coherent mass until half of 3/4 range and then spread from there. At max range you should hit 3 components and at medium you should hit one. Then you could think of it as an actual viable alternative while not eclipsing single slug ACs. To be fair, the main reason I use the LBX in my favourite Atlas and not a single AC20 is that the ammo per ton is a lot better. That and the absurd heat spike of an AC20.

Edited by HerrRed, 16 May 2016 - 07:41 PM.

[Mavairo]

Even in Tier 3, Rapid fire massed autocannons are starting to make something of a come back.
1N Dragon anyone? Yes it dies horrifically when anything even so much as looks at it.... but you should be putting shots into peoples back armor with it anyway.
If you want to get real crazy couple it with the rapid fire near machine gun volleys of it's 2 SRM4 launcher capability. Yes you are going to run dry in one or the other...but if you're a good shot... well, that's a **** ton of dmg thrown down range, in a very short window of time.

My Atlas's have taken to running multiple guns. AC10 and UAC5on both my DDC and my D. The D with it's ballistic quirks and the cooldown modules on the two ACs is insane. It's every bit a rapid fire GR. Every other gun on the mech is almost more of a supplement.

There's also been a resurgence in multiple UAC5 King Crabs as of late, and understandably so, with the horrifying damage they deal.
All that aside..the LBX10 still blows imo.
Ballistics are in a pretty good spot right now, on the right mechs.

[Y E O N N E]

Musket lines, ahoy!