316 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Raso, on 16 May 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

OMG is this guy serious? Can we can another, hardcore, Tier 1 try-hard comp-meister in here to confirm this? Because this is at odds with literally everything I hear on the forums. I mean even the pugiest pug trash on here talking about how awesome MGs are if you boat 7 of them on a Shadow Cat knows it's all about the low beam duration duration laser alpha because it's low skill/hit scan/high damage qualities remove all of the randomness of ballistic travel time and thus allow for the sort of "high level play" that comp layers just gobble up!

Mauler is legit, KDK is about to drop, you are starting to see Dakka EBJs, as well. Last night I ran into groups of Dakka Jagers running AC2/AC5/UAC5/Gauss in varying degrees several times. The RFL is a good AC2/AC5 platform, the BJ1 is big on AC2s, and of course you have mechs like the WHM-6R running various dakka/laser builds.

It is coming...in fact, if you were paying attention, I would be willing to argue it is already here, it just has not trickled down yet.

[Pariah Devalis]

Gyrok, on 17 May 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Mauler is legit, KDK is about to drop, you are starting to see Dakka EBJs, as well. Last night I ran into groups of Dakka Jagers running AC2/AC5/UAC5/Gauss in varying degrees several times. The RFL is a good AC2/AC5 platform, the BJ1 is big on AC2s, and of course you have mechs like the WHM-6R running various dakka/laser builds.

It is coming...in fact, if you were paying attention, I would be willing to argue it is already here, it just has not trickled down yet.

And if the MAX ALPHA based system comes into play, low alpha damage, high rate of fire will be the name of the game. AKA: Dakka.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 May 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

We are currently on the verge of a dakka meta, anyone who still thinks all this game boils down to is massive alpha strikes is massively misinformed. Even then, AC10s (LB or otherwise) are outclassed by other dakka, mainly AC5s/UAC5s.

Gyrok, on 17 May 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Mauler is legit, KDK is about to drop, you are starting to see Dakka EBJs, as well. Last night I ran into groups of Dakka Jagers running AC2/AC5/UAC5/Gauss in varying degrees several times. The RFL is a good AC2/AC5 platform, the BJ1 is big on AC2s, and of course you have mechs like the WHM-6R running various dakka/laser builds.

It is coming...in fact, if you were paying attention, I would be willing to argue it is already here, it just has not trickled down yet.

Here's the deal. I can acknowledge the Meta is shifting in th eupper echelons, but realistically, it hasn't in the average tiers to the Underhive, which is where 99% of the playerbase is. Why? Because lasers alphas are still ezmode, aimwise, being hitscan. I don't see the playerbase as a whole shifting to the Comp Meta as long as this is still the easiest way out for moderate to no skilled players.

I think that is a disconnect you are overlooking (or both sides are).... comp play and mainstream play are often two very different games. And for someone playing casual to say the Laservomit Meta is dominate can be correct...in his tiers.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 May 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 May 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Why? Because lasers alphas are still ezmode, aimwise, being hitscan. I don't see the playerbase as a whole shifting to the Comp Meta as long as this is still the easiest way out for moderate to no skilled players.

So basically lasers are the noobtube of MWO currently, which I really don't see a problem with, PUG queue is never going to be the part of the game where many types of builds of equally strong due to its lack of team cohesion always benefiting those who play the middle of the road ranged builds.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 May 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Here's the deal. I can acknowledge the Meta is shifting in th eupper echelons, but realistically, it hasn't in the average tiers to the Underhive, which is where 99% of the playerbase is. Why? Because lasers alphas are still ezmode, aimwise, being hitscan. I don't see the playerbase as a whole shifting to the Comp Meta as long as this is still the easiest way out for moderate to no skilled players.

On the other hand, the solutions to the meta at the top always trickle down to the masses, even if diluted...

[Neput Z34]

How has this tread went form: "LBX is weak" to "Current Meta"?

As far as I can remember "Meta" always was Front Loaded Pin Point Damage or FLPPD. How it is achieved depends on the "flavor of the month".

We had the SRM splat meta, the LRM-Agedon meta, the Raven 3-L Streak 2 meta, the ERPPC/ PPC + Gauss meta, the AC40 meta, the Dual/ Triple/ Quadruple Gauss meta, the UAC5 / AC5 "Dakka" meta, the Laser / "Wub" meta, etc.(might have missed some).


Back on topic of "LBX is weak sauce":

On IS side: LBX10 is only relay scary on the mechs like the Mauler with 4 of them looking at you under 200 meters.
For comparison look at 5~6 AC5 MX90, or a 4 UAC5 and tell me which one is less dependent on factors outside your control, or being on the "right map".

The are only a handful of specific builds / "edge cases", where LBX10 is marginally better then other Auto canons, due to "quirks" and / or, tonnage / space restrictions. ( ON1-M , RFL-LK, CN9-D. ENF-5D. Centurion and Enforcer are probably better of, with out the LBX )

On Clan side: CLBX2 / CLBX5 is only good if you are boating 6 ~ 5 of them and have a "macro", CBX10 is scary on the Dire that has 4 of them and the CLBX 20 is typically passed over for other weapons.
In most cases you are better of, boating CUAC then LBX.

Edited by Neput Z34, 22 May 2016 - 10:08 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Neput Z34, on 22 May 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

How has this tread went form: "LBX is weak" to "Current Meta"?

You aren't considering the gun within the context of role dedication and strong team-work. If my 'Mech is splat with SRMs, and I am not going to actually engage things outside of 150 meters, and my team is coordinated enough to make sure that this happens, then I don't need the longer range or guaranteed pin-point from the heavier, hotter AC/10.

That's how we went from "LB-X is weak" to "LB-X has a place in current meta." There are some SRM builds that bundle an LB-10X or LB-20X in. There are no meta builds that use an AC/10.

[Bishop Steiner]

feeWAIVER, on 15 May 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

I honestly think LBX is fine as is.

LOLNO

[GweNTLeR]

LBX is fine in some very special cases. But, honestly speaking, so are many weapons in MWO. I have been using WVR-7D with MASC, SRM'S and LBX for some time and found it quite devastating and fun.

BTW, I belive that centurion has even bigger potential.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 27 May 2016 - 12:12 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

GweNTLeR, on 26 May 2016 - 11:48 PM, said:

LBX is fine in some very special cases. But, honestly speaking, so are many weapons in MWO. I have been using WVR-7D with MASC, SRM'S and LBX for some time and found it quite devastating and fun.

BTW, I belive that centurion has even bigger potential.

High damage is NOT a good indication of a anything being good. In fact, the opposite is true. If your weapon system hits hard, fast, and precise, your overall damage numbers will be quite low. The more you spread that damage, the higher the necessary damage required to kill a target. IE: It is extremely inefficient use of damage, meaning either the pilot has terrible aim or the weapon is terribly inefficient about putting damage where it counts. LBX spread tremendously, so regardless of the individual pilot's skill, you will always apply inefficient damage with it short of planting the gun against their armor directly.

Case in point, I find I hover around 700 damage in my Quad-UAC10 kodiak, but I also tend to CT drill most targets. Dealing about 225 damage per kill with the KDK. Very little wasted damage, but there is wasted damage all the same. Meanwhile, laserboats like my Nova tend to deal around 450-550 damage, at around 150 damage per kill, and for the same reason. Precision leads to less waste, despite 3, 4, 5 or more kills.

Less waste, higher the efficiency, and the lower the damage numbers are.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 27 May 2016 - 10:33 AM.

[Wintersdark]

LBX's aren't fine. They're usable in some very specific cases, and are actually optimal in VERY specific builds. But for reference, there have been a couple specific builds that have been solid meta builds that use SHS too. That doesn't mean SHS are fine.

And, as usual: a players ability to get good results from something never mean it's fine: there are a multitude of reasons why you can get good performances with terrible builds. That doesn't make them less terrible.

You don't want weapons homogenous, but you do want all weapons to be decent choices for at least a reasonably usable role. The more limited the situations a weapon is worth using, the better it needs to be at what it does do.

That's the LBX failing, overall. It is best at close range brawling, except that it isn't particularly better at that than the non LBX alternatives, however it's substantially worse at everything else.

If it was actually a markedly superior brawling weapon compared to the alternatives, then that would be great... but it's not.

So, while there are highly specific circumstances where the LBX is OK, that doesn't make the weapon fine.

It needs improvement.

[Mole]

I don't know what you guys are complaining about. The LB20X I put in my Kodiak 2's shoulder has been killing bad guys just fine. All I seem to be reading is "Why isn't my shotgun a good sniper weapon?".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mole, on 27 May 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

"Why isn't my shotgun a good SRM alternative?".

FTFY, the only thing I've really tried to argue against, is the idea that AC10s are hugely superior over LBX10s. Outside of that, would love for LBX to be a more solid alternative to SRMs rather than SRMs being the true shotgun weapon of this game.

[Mole]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

FTFY, the only thing I've really tried to argue against, is the idea that AC10s are hugely superior over LBX10s. Outside of that, would love for LBX to be a more solid alternative to SRMs rather than SRMs being the true shotgun weapon of this game.

There are two reasons I can think of right off the top of my head that SRMs are better at being the game's shotgun than LBX cannons. The first reason is ARTEMIS. SRMs can get ARTEMIS which can turn an SRM6 from a "here, have some damage spread all over your 'mech" weapon to a "here, your CT just dissolved in one shot" weapon. LBX cannons have no apply-able spread buffs like SRMs do. The second, and probably the most important reason, is size. This isn't so much a problem with LBX cannons as much as it is a problem with every Autocannon in the game. It weighs so effing much and takes up so many slots that it is far more weight and slot efficient to bring a ton of SRMs with ARTEMIS to the fight than it is to bring one LBX cannon that does less damage even if its damage was pinpoint yet still weighs more than your arsenal of SRM racks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mole, on 27 May 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

There are two reasons I can think of right off the top of my head that SRMs are better at being the game's shotgun than LBX cannons. The first reason is ARTEMIS. SRMs can get ARTEMIS which can turn an SRM6 from a "here, have some damage spread all over your 'mech" weapon to a "here, your CT just dissolved in one shot" weapon. LBX cannons have no apply-able spread buffs like SRMs do. The second, and probably the most important reason, is size. This isn't so much a problem with LBX cannons as much as it is a problem with every Autocannon in the game. It weighs so effing much and takes up so many slots that it is far more weight and slot efficient to bring a ton of SRMs with ARTEMIS to the fight than it is to bring one LBX cannon that does less damage even if its damage was pinpoint yet still weighs more than your arsenal of SRM racks.

All you really needed to say, was the problem boils down to Damage Per Ton which the LBX is horrible at compared to SRMs. Sure SRMs generate more heat, but for a majority of SRM boats, that isn't as much of a problem as having the firepower.

[Mole]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

All you really needed to say, was the problem boils down to Damage Per Ton which the LBX is horrible at compared to SRMs. Sure SRMs generate more heat, but for a majority of SRM boats, that isn't as much of a problem as having the firepower.

Maybe that's all I needed to say to you, but... you know... some people need everything spelled out for them...

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

FTFY, the only thing I've really tried to argue against, is the idea that AC10s are hugely superior over LBX10s. Outside of that, would love for LBX to be a more solid alternative to SRMs rather than SRMs being the true shotgun weapon of this game.

Well, I would say for 1 ton tax, 10 pt PP-FLD at the same RoF, IS significantly better than 10 pts S-FLD, since that ac10 is comfortably usable out to 600 meters or so. Yes in MetaBrawls, engagement at range is more controllable. In PUGLandia, not so much.

And outside 150 Meters, you start hitting multiple locations with LB-10 and 20X. Just because something isn't massively better in the somewhat artificial Competitive Environment doesn't mean it's not significantly better in the game the other 98% of or so are playing. And on Heavy Chassis, a pair of AC10 is almost universally an upgrade to a pair of LB-X or PPC (due to sustainable fire and DPS). Admittedly below the 60-65 ton threshold, tonnage starvation makes the PPC the better pick.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

All you really needed to say, was the problem boils down to Damage Per Ton which the LBX is horrible at compared to SRMs. Sure SRMs generate more heat, but for a majority of SRM boats, that isn't as much of a problem as having the firepower.

And this is more the actual point. In those builds that combine LB-X with SRMS, is the tonnage was there without sacrificing something more crucial, the AC10 would still be better, just not mandatory given the build. Ideal would actually be 2-3 more Missile Hardpoints, barring getting too jammed up with GH, which still for the tonnage difference one can buy a lot of DHS.

It's correct to call the LB-X Situationally Optimal, but at no point is it actually superior to the AC10. There are simply instances that the AC10 is less optimal for the demands of a specific build because of tons/crits.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I'll just take this opportunity to reiterate that the fastest, easiest, and most immediately effective fix for the LB line of ACs is to increase damage per pellet. It helps them at all ranges, while making them down right scary close-in, when the cluster can more reliably be placed on specific components.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

It's correct to call the LB-X Situationally Optimal, but at no point is it actually superior to the AC10. There are simply instances that the AC10 is less optimal for the demands of a specific build because of tons/crits.

I would say that the fact the AC10 is less optimal because of certain niche builds means the AC10 is not wholly superior, but either way, both LBX and AC10s could use some more love (LBX needs more love and SRMs maybe needing some toning down).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 May 2016 - 02:16 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

I would say that the fact the AC10 is less optimal because of certain niche builds means the AC10 is not wholly superior, but either way, both LBX and AC10s could use some more love (LBX needs more love and SRMs maybe needing some toning down).

as an AC10 fanatic since closed beta (ok, technically since MW3) really all I'd like to see with my AC10 is better projectile velocity. It's at a good point IMO for heat, dmg and cooldown. Tonnage and Crits ain't gonna change. But boy howdy is that 40% velocity boost on my RFL-3N VERUH NICE!

Not sure about SRMs, themselves, but certain mechs sure as heck need their SRM quirks toned down.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 May 2016 - 02:23 PM.