22 replies to this topic

[SteelHoves]

I was very excited to see this mech introduced to MWO.PGI hit a home run on how the mech looks. Unfortunately after playing a bunch of matches in all 4 archer variants last night i have come to the conclusion i am not very impressed with it. there are a few things that bug me and I believe are holding this mech back from being a lot better. My first gripe with it is the .5 sec delay in firing ST missiles due to it having to open the doors. While using the archer as a LRM boat this isn’t much of a problem just a small annoyance. On the contrary it’s a crippling weakness for SRMs. It becomes and issue when setting up weapon groups because I now have to work around the fact half of my missiles won’t fire at the same time. This become more prevalent on say the 5W-5S where you have half your missiles on arms and half behind doors. You can try and lead but i find this to be harder to work around than then the Gauss charge time.I know you can keep the doors open but that leads me to the next issue.
Second is how much dmg the side torsos seem to take if you get caught with the doors open. For the few seconds the doors open to shoot I have had ST taken out as if they were paper. This really makes brawling not very viable in any version. This also makes the mech not very XL friendly in my opinion.
Last but not least the hand actuators. What I wouldn’t do to be able to get rid of those actuators. Hands serve 0 purpose in this game and on a bunch of builds i find my self with .5-1T left over and no real way to use it due to having 0 or 1 slot left. i would be able to stuff an additional heat sink or .5T of ammo if they didn’t exist.
In conclusion if you’re looking for a LRM boat/ laser LRM mech the archer is decent. If you want to brawl with loads of srms this might not be the mech you’re looking for.

Edited by SteelHoves, 16 March 2016 - 08:23 AM.

[Stickus]

Toggle the Weapon Bay Doors with the slash key, as per this info:
[color=#FFFFFF]
Weapon Door Toggle [SLASH][/color]
= opens and closes missile bay doors for missile launchers

• Some Mechs come with missile bay doors which protect any installed missile

[Aluminumfoiled]

0.5s delay is the price for the armor boost when closed. Been that way forever I think. The doors are very large though. Like I'm not here flags, really. Nothing to see here.

[MechLord71]

Not a good mech in my opinion. That is okay, I risked the $20-35 and lost. This does have me holding off on the Phoenix Hawk though. I really liked Marauder and Warhammer. Rifleman was okay, but this one is not good. Very, very fragile and clunky.

[CmdrA]

MechLord71, on 16 March 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Not a good mech in my opinion. That is okay, I risked the $20-35 and lost. This does have me holding off on the Phoenix Hawk though. I really liked Marauder and Warhammer. Rifleman was okay, but this one is not good. Very, very fragile and clunky.

I like the fact the devs said they overquirk mechs they thought weren't going to be competitive to make up for it, which ended up the opposite, and lacked on quirks because they thought this mech would do good, and the opposite here happened. Funny ain't it?

[Black Ivan]

Archer is underwelming Mech. not well thought Quirks, weapon bay doors are a death trap and the hit boxes are bugged.

Well done PGI on releasing another subpar Mech.

[Yozzman]

Wasted my money on this one...

[Musashi Alexander]

I feel like the Archer should be bad and it was for the first 10 matches, awful in fact. But I found builds that work for me and after 50 matches in the Archer, am doing 50% better than my normal KDR.

Lurmboat with 5ML backup
ARC-2R

Brawler
ARC-5S

Troll Boat w/ SRM punch
ARC-5W

ECM Brawler
TEMPEST

[Nightshade24]

Not to sure what most people complaining about. I sadly didn't get it but planning to soon and on paper with quirks not even taken into consideration it seems to be a great LRM boat. rivaling the mad dog and over shadowing the catapult.

[Musashi Alexander]

Nightshade24, on 18 March 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

Not to sure what most people complaining about. I sadly didn't get it but planning to soon and on paper with quirks not even taken into consideration it seems to be a great LRM boat. rivaling the mad dog and over shadowing the catapult.

It's not really a great Lurm boat to be honest. It should be but there are far better options if you want to do that (I don't normally). 2R isn't bad with decent, not great, LRM quirks and with 6 energy slots gives you options. 5W isn't bad either because you can boat LRM5s which give a quick firing rate and good grouping. The other two I've found to be poor Lurm Boats (relatively speaking).

Edited by Musashi Alexander, 19 March 2016 - 06:46 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Musashi Alexander, on 19 March 2016 - 01:36 AM, said:

It's not really a great Lurm boat to be honest. It should be but there are far better options if you want to do that (I don't normally). 2W isn't bad with decent, not great, LRM quirks and with 6 energy slots gives you options. 5W isn't bad either because you can boat LRM5s which give a quick firing rate and good grouping. The other two I've found to be poor Lurm Boats (relatively speaking).

Catapult optimal LRM payload:
2 x LRM 15, 4 x Medium laser.
Archer using the same load out:
ECM (if tempest), or simply the fact that it has lasers in the arms and thus far more resilient to light mechs.

Catapult A1: 6 x LRM 5
Archer 5W: 6 x LRM 5, and possible 3 x SRM 6 to fend off enemies if they get under 180m without getting useless.
Mad dog A: 6 x LRM 5, 4 x ER medium lasers (or less), much more hotter and less damage for tonnage.

Mad Dog: 60 tonner
Catapult: 65 tonner
Archer: 70 tonner.

Mad dog: (prime: 6) (a: 8) (b:8) (c: 2) (max: 11 [6 missile, 5 energy]) hardpoints
Catapult: 6 hardpoints
Archer: 8-9 hardpoints

Mad dog: poor quirks
Catapult: decent quirks
Archer: placeholder okayish quirks- getting 'buffed' soon™


Hero:
Catapult: 6 Energy, 4 JJ, 2 AMS
Archer: 4 Energy, 2 Missile, 1 ECM, 1 AMS
Mad Dog: n/a.


Every way I look at it, the Archer beats the other two in the terms of LRM boater. Or at lest in the LRM meta (as an the actual definition of meta and how LRM's are used in MW: O, not saying that LRM's are MLG competitive cheese meta god mode or what ever) usually as a rule of thumb likes heavier mechs as they got more missiles, more ammo, more defensive armnament, etc... however the sweet spot is usually also able to move fast enough to not fall to far behind or fall into enemy hands thus 70-85 tons are the sweet spot. The Archer gets into that quite well.

[Musashi Alexander]

I rarely use Catapults as LRM boats (only use the Jester really from the chassis) - the A1 can only troll and has no energy hard point, the C4 can nicely do 4x LRM10 and has good quirks but big ears and only one ML if you have a TAG. Also, I don't have Mad Dogs so can't really compare.

And, I'm not saying you can't use all Archers as LRM boats, I just think only the two I mentioned do it well enough to use in favour of other mechs which can do it better. I would prefer the mechs below.

BLR-1s at 85 tons
AWS-8R at 80 tons
ON1-V or ON1-VA at 75 tons
JM6-6 at 65 tons
WVR-7D(L) or KTO-GB at 55 tons
HBK-4J at 50 tons

I think if they revise the missile/structure quirks on the Archer a bit, that may change.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Just a question, can you open and close the doors if you have no weapons equipped under those doors? (I.e. Using only arm weapons?)

[Tordin]

I like that list Nightshade, clean and precise. I like my archers have done well in them, well two of them. Havent got time to play that much (Metro 2033 steals my time too!)
I've tried the 2R with 3 x artemis lrm 10 and backup lasers, with xl 300 I think. Works well enough, the heat are very managable if you play it right.
And I've also tried the 2W with 9 x lrm 5 + xl 320, I think. Even with 1.5 in heat management the heat spikes like theres no tomorrow and I even chainfire them all but put two groups half in arms, half in side torsos. Hot but helluva fun!

Only downside, while I wish this game should do withouth all this quirks, the Archer do need some solid all around LRM, SRM and even SSRM quirks and to a lesser degree energy quirks. With lesser I mean they shouldnt exceed the buffs the missile quirks give.

[Nightshade24]

Musashi Alexander, on 19 March 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

I rarely use Catapults as LRM boats (only use the Jester really from the chassis) - the A1 can only troll and has no energy hard point, the C4 can nicely do 4x LRM10 and has good quirks but big ears and only one ML if you have a TAG. Also, I don't have Mad Dogs so can't really compare.

And, I'm not saying you can't use all Archers as LRM boats, I just think only the two I mentioned do it well enough to use in favour of other mechs which can do it better. I would prefer the mechs below.

BLR-1s at 85 tons
AWS-8R at 80 tons
ON1-V or ON1-VA at 75 tons
JM6-6 at 65 tons
WVR-7D(L) or KTO-GB at 55 tons
HBK-4J at 50 tons

I think if they revise the missile/structure quirks on the Archer a bit, that may change.

Well, as far as I can see all the Archers can do LRMing with a great advantage over contemporary mechs.
The the Catapult A1 isn't a troll, it's a valid mech on the team that can deal it's purpose and can perform as well as any other mech (key word can). A propper troll would be something like the 9+ ER PPC Direwolf for example. A mech that's pure purpose is to essentially. Now with your mechs listed above...

BLR-1S. Large profile, Slower, No ECM, Rather has poor support weapons and over the top LRM's (above the heat efficient duo for alpha striking). That or poor LRM's for tonnage and good support weapons. Archer can achieve a better balance.

Awesome, again a large profile. Worse support weapon potential. Very ammo heavy, no ECM. etc. Similar problems to above. Relies on chain fire.

Orion-V, very poor support weapons. OR non LRM boat, Skirmisher build with LRM's + Autocannon (or other ballistic) + Lasers (or PPC's). Closer tonnage to Archer. no ECM.

Jagermech-7, poor support weapons. relies on chainfire (depending on build), can run a dual missile build. However no clear advantage over a catapult or archer. Only up to prefference (I suggest LRM 5's + AC 2's to get the most uniqueness out of it)

Wolverine 7D, very limited payload, faster than archer but less firepower/ weapons/ ammo per ton ratio. etc. Good for skirmishers though but not LRM boats.

Kintaro, very good LRM boat, one of the bests of the medium weight class, can spew constant 5 LRM 5 chain fire spam mage. However Archer can spam more. Could also spam LRM 10's on the archer as well... oh and the obvious factor that it has a lack of support weapons however play style is severely different... obvious lack of support weapons and has the traits of a medium mech LRM boat instead of a heavy LRM mech.

HBK-4J can vomit pair of LRM 10's at best. Archer can vomit more and have better support weapons but is slower and no zombie laser.

Summery: comparing assault/ medium LRM boats to a heavy is like comparing a rock and a pineapple to a hamburger.
Strong advantages and disadvantages, Play style completely changes in the LRM spectrum and build principles change.

Overall advantages archer has:
Archer is the only mech here with missile bays, thus better protection.
Archer is only one here with ECM (tempest).
Archer variants has extreme variation in missile spam or missile + lasers or missile + laser spam. Allowing support weapons or weapons to assist the LRM/ compliment to occur, Rather they be ER large lasers or medium lasers. etc.

[Nightshade24]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 19 March 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Just a question, can you open and close the doors if you have no weapons equipped under those doors? (I.e. Using only arm weapons?)

Should be possible with the key but I need to test this out. WIll let you know by friday unless you tested it already.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Nightshade24, on 21 March 2016 - 04:10 AM, said:

Should be possible with the key but I need to test this out. WIll let you know by friday unless you tested it already.

I havent tested it, didnt buy them yet. But i am very interested in this- because if they can open and close still, then i will probably buy them

[Nightshade24]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 21 March 2016 - 04:23 AM, said:

I havent tested it, didnt buy them yet. But i am very interested in this- because if they can open and close still, then i will probably buy them

Testing using the Catapult and Stalker (regulars and 4N) have concluded that you can not manually open/ close the bay doors. However the durrability buffs it gives still applies... at least to a mech that had weapons there but not anymore. The Stalker 4N's other arm has no buffs.

[Tralik]

I've had pretty good success with the Tempest, but not as a missile boat, but rather as a long.medium range laser boat. Here's my build:

XL 340 engine
Endo Steel
Max Armor
Double Heat Sinks qty. 7
ECM
AMS w/ 2 tons ammo
3 ER Large Lasers
3 Med Lasers
Command Console
Adv. Zoom module
Radar Deprvation module
ER Laser Range module
ER Laser Cooldown module

This build seems to work really well for me, primarily because of the ECM and Radar Deprivation combination on a heavy mech that will do 81kph. It is like playing a pretty well armored medium mech. You don't want to brawl in it per-se, but it can take some damage and avoid getting missile spammed. It works well to move, fire, move, fire. I find that it excels in flanking enemy firing lines, doing some damage, and then getting out of dodge before things get too hot. Anyhow, it has been working for me pretty well so far.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Nightshade24, on 21 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

Testing using the Catapult and Stalker (regulars and 4N) have concluded that you can not manually open/ close the bay doors. However the durrability buffs it gives still applies... at least to a mech that had weapons there but not anymore. The Stalker 4N's other arm has no buffs.

Thank you so much! With the new structure buffs... I think im going to buy some archers for a tank lpl build