30 replies to this topic

[Rexxxxxxxxx]

The real reason MWO is unbalanced is because Clan mechs cost more to unlock and master. If the cost were lowered, new/inexperienced players would use Clan mechs more often. Which would in turn give the IS a better chance of winning. Since an IS mech costs less to master, New players with less experience and fewer C-bills will play for the IS side.

An IS chassis can be stripped, leaving the engine/heatsinks/jump jets to be reused for the next variant. Clan's cannot do this. Their engines are locked along with Jump Jets as well as most of their heatsinks.

To unlock a 75 ton Clan Timber Wolf, you have to spend $15 million C-Bills per variant. Mastering it, can cost as much as $45 million C-Bills after the three variants are purchased.

A 75 ton Orion variant costs just over $6 million C-bills per variant. If you buy a specific engine for that mech which costs $5 Million C-bills, you only have to buy that engine once. Once your done unlocking a variant you can strip the engine, and use it for the next variant. In the end you only spend roughly $25 Million to master an IS 75 ton mech.

(below are rough numbers)
Clan 75 Ton mech mastering cost = $45 Million
IS 75 Ton mech mastering cost = $25 Million

If PGI lowered the cost of unlocking Clan mechs, and/or gave us the option of swapping engines between variants, this would lower the bar for Clan mech leveling. Bringing new/inexperienced players to the Clan side. This would allow the IS a better chance of winning a game and in turn bring balance to MWO.

[Lily from animove]

Can you elaborate those costs? truly new players have hardly any idea about these difference at all. Further if you want to properly equip these mechs and it includes a XL engine, DHS and FF and Es the IS mech is similar expensive.

If you are lucky you can use the same engine on all 3 variants (cheapest possible saving form sharing similar loadouts), but this is not always the case and even less something a newbie knows.
On the other side, you can make every clanmech have the SAME loaodut so you can 1:1 transport DHS (the non fixed) and heatsinks and all weapons to the other variant. While the IS cannot if both variants hardpoints differ too much you will not be able to carry over all weapons. So at this point IS across all 3 variants may even be more expensive.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 December 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[Rexxxxxxxxx]

$4.8 Million was the rough cost of an XL 295 engine. Which can be used across many mechs without a problem.
Even though the weapon hard points may be different, you can still keep those weapons for future use on a different mech.

If you have to sell a Clan mech due to limited mech bays, you have to sell the engine as well, and we all know that we get less than half the value when we sell anything. The IS can keep multiple engines on hand. I still own a few IS engines that I can swap out of my IS variants when leveling a new mech. Swapping engines you already own doesn't cost you a dime.

[FallenDevil]

You're new on battletech universe aren't you OP? Sorry maybe my Battlemech universe knowledge is also a bit lacking too but as far as I know that's is Clan mech, Most of the clan mech are omnimech. Yes they can swap the omnipods but for its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment it's hardwired,they can't be swapped just like IS. The XL engine of the clan is also different,you won't die just by losing 1 ST. IS counterpart,when losing 1 ST,you're toast

http://www.sarna.net...h#Disadvantages

Edited by FallenDevil, 22 December 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[Rexxxxxxxxx]

Whether it is lore or not, this is why the IS side has the majority of new and inexperienced players.

I'm trying to make the point that PGI needs to rectify the cost difference between Clans and IS before the game can be balanced.

Otherwise the new players will continue to flood the IS side.

[GenJack]

Easy way to solve this is to make IS or Clan specific accounts and have payouts pay accordingly.

But everyone would hate that Idea.

[SkippyT72]

Not Everyone

[Azzgaroth]

Or just reduce quirk, remove clan side torso explosion nerf, give this nerf to IS xl. IS mech will survive side torso explosion, balance done next subject.

Its way to hard to understand for a great dev team. ...

[Archie4Strings]

i totally agree with the Rexxxxxxx!
Maybe its not the general cost of a clan mech, but much more the different weapons.
Clan ER Med Laster f.E. is 160.000 C-Bills while a IS Med Laser is just 80.000 C-Bills.
Also the clan mechs do have already some kind of ferro fibrit or endosteel and also dhs equipt. But you cannot change it as you prefer, which is actually a huge disadvantage! Either your mechs dont have an appropriate number of free slots due to endosteel and ferrofibrit, or also not enough tonnage left for a strong loadout (gargoyle, summoner...).

Also, even if you equip an Orion with an 300 xl engine and endosteel and dhs, it is 13,6 Mio C-Bills. A Timberwolf with just its engine is 15,2 Mio C-Bills (both with full armor). And on top of that still comes the more expensive weapons of the clans.
Also: The xl engine in IS-Mechs is optional (actually there are just a few IS mechs running around in Xl engine, most keep the standard engine). So you buy probably just one xl engine for several mechs.

Fact is: Clanners pay for everything, while IS do not have to pay for the quirks.

Thing is, and that is what it is about:
As a clanner, you pay a much bigger amount of c-bills for mastering than any IS-mech, but clanmechs are not better than the IS-mechs. That is an issue!
I am not whining about balance issues (can be that its fair), but having to pay twice as much to get a machine with similar power/loadout... that is not fair and also frustrating.

[DivineEvil]

Wrong. IS mechs and Clan mechs are in most cases fare the same way in terms of costs.

The mere fact, that you purchase a stock mech for less does not eliminate the need to upgrade it in order to avoid painful experience of running inferior loadout. Thus, DHS upgrades for all variants without it already included into pay check, ES in all but the heaviest of mechs and FF for almost every Light mech that you buy + an STD or XL engine, that better fits the loadout (which you can know beforehand only by following an outside guidance).

Each variant of an IS mech in most cases has different hardpoints and weapon quirks, thus even when saving weapons from previous variants, you're still obliged to fill up the loadout. Having these hardpoints permanently fixed means that you might have to try several different loadouts, again unless you follow an outside guidance. Using an Omnimech teaches you to deal with the engine and upgrades you have from the very start, while Omni-pods sometimes cost less than a single wewapon they carry, compared to a single Engine.

While Omnimechs do not save you an Engine, they save you an Omni-Pod set. Many of these can also be solf together with a frame, such as most Head and Leg OmniPods, as they're essentially identical from model to model. This compensates for the repurchase loses. Finally, when you've done eliting a mech, you only need one Mechbay to hold the entire customization structure built into the chassis. IS players at the same time are stuck with a single hardpoint layout, that they hopefully planned ahead of time to be left with. They'll have to spend not C-Bills, but MCs to maintain options exceeding the purchase of another engine to conform for lower/heavier equipment.

So all in all, IS and Clan are economically the same. You just pay more for a completely upgraded Omnimech, that's it.

PUGs are equally bad and equally likely to run Trials on both sides.

Edited by DivineEvil, 29 December 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[Rexxxxxxxxx]

But you get to strip the engine before selling an IS mech.
You can also transfer that engine to another variant.
Engines cost millions of C-bills.

Not to mention IS mechs are cheaper to begin with.

[Steve Pryde]

In the end is mechs are cheaper because u don't throw a xl-engine in every mech. Most heavys and assaults don't need them. Only some mediums and all light mechs suffer without them.

[Kaeseblock]

Sorry, but the CBill investment for kitting out a mech has nothing to do with game balance (mechs being better in the matches then other mechs).

Also:
A fully equipped IS mech is about as expensive as a fully equipped Clan mech, since you have to buy DHS and usually an engine for your IS mechs while your Clan Omnimechs are basically completely equipped right from the start.
Did I mention that you can sell the worst Omnimech CTs after unlocking their basic efficencies for extra CBills an more free mechbays, since you can swap out the pods on your most favorite variant and build almost any build with that variant anyways?

[Alaric Hasek]

Have you noticed that the Clans can't get out of their invasion zones in CW? Thst would seem to suggest that the game balance has shifted to IS.

[AbyssalTyrant]

No it suggests that the large group switched sides . That's all that matters in cw which side has the larger merc units. I dont understand why people dont get that. The balance is closer now then ever before.

[Tarl Cabot]

Alaric Hasek, on 29 December 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Have you noticed that the Clans can't get out of their invasion zones in CW? Thst would seem to suggest that the game balance has shifted to IS.

It would suggest but not the case. Weights for each side went from 250 to 265 for IS and Clan from 240 to 250 (and today changed to 255). So for few IS had more mass than Clans. Do not forget that the Clans loss most of their larger and more successful mercs, who had gone IS. And those mercs are taking advantage of that weight increase.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 29 December 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[Imglidinhere]

Uhm... if you're trying to compare a Mad Cat to an Orion, you'll find that evenly-skilled fights will show how fast the Orion will evaporate in combat. Really, it's THE most iconic clan mech that I can think of. When you see it appear on the horizon, you immediately shoot at it. It's about as iconic to the Clans as the Atlas is for the Inner Sphere.

Also, Clan tech requires a different, more deliberate playstyle from what I've seen. You can **** around in an IS mech a lot more than you can in Clanner model.

[Steve Pryde]

Imglidinhere, on 31 December 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Uhm... if you're trying to compare a Mad Cat to an Orion, you'll find that evenly-skilled fights will show how fast the Orion will evaporate in combat. Really, it's THE most iconic clan mech that I can think of. When you see it appear on the horizon, you immediately shoot at it. It's about as iconic to the Clans as the Atlas is for the Inner Sphere.

Also, Clan tech requires a different, more deliberate playstyle from what I've seen. You can **** around in an IS mech a lot more than you can in Clanner model.

Why are u comparing one of the worst is heavy with one of the best clan heavy? Take Marauder instead and I think they are very equal now.

edit: or u mean clan Orion? It has worse hitboxes but carrys much more firepower than an Timber Wolf, it's a trade off.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 01 January 2016 - 07:20 AM.

[AnimeFreak40K]

While I understand the basis of your argument (that is, Clan mechs are more expensive and thus out of reach for many new players), the thing of it is this: the overall C-Bill cost for mechs is actually about the same.

What I mean by this, is that costs for mechs are either based on tonnage (chassis, ferro, endo) or a flat rate (engines, equipment, weapons). This, in turn means that if you were to mimic a build across both Clan and Inner Sphere (a bit challenging because of the engine-size limitations on many IS mechs), you would find that they would have a very similar cost (I mean, we're talking on the order of 1-2 million C-Bills which, lets face facts, is chump change).

This all being said, the fact of the matter is that Clan mechs are more expensive because they have a higher up-front cost associated with them that IS mechs don't have to pay (but most do it anyway because the stock engine is bad and Single Heat Sinks, while better than they were in the past, aren't as good as Doubles).

[Rattazustra]

The problem here is basic commitment psychology.

I think most people will agree that the majority of all NEW players wants to have a mech of their own as soon as possible.
So the new player gets himself a mech and unless he has very specific interests, it will likely be an IS mech, since they are so much less expensive.

Does it matter that with dual heatsinks, probably endoframe and an engine swap they are not? Nopey. That does not play much of a role because most of all new players simply do not know that. On top of that, having a mech and then optimizing it with further investment is more attractive than not having that mech.

So the new player gets himself an IS mech, often medium or heavy these days. The next thing he wants to due is most likely mastering the mech and getting all the skills up. For that he needs two more mechs from that very same chassis.

So now he has three IS mechs and he decides to look at community warfare. What do you think he'll do? He'll try to mold the mechs he has into a dropdeck. If he fills it up with trial mechs chances are good he'll end up buying one of the chassis he thus got used to.

Every step further down that road only makes it worse. The step to switch sides becomes higher and higher. When you have multiple IS mechs it is simply not attractive to do all the grinding again from zero.

But it gets worse!

IS has all champion mechs as trials. Thus players gain more XP with these trials. Clan? Nope. Only half of the trials are champion mechs and even that is a very recent development.

On top of that there are hero mechs. They are quite attractive for grinding C-Bills and... they simply do not exist for clan players. There is no clan champion mech in the game. Sure, there are the invasion models that you got from the big clan packages, but those are not the same, because you cannot just buy them like you can buy a hero mech. I'd LOVE to have an invasion Mad Dog, but I cannot have it.


So new players have it easier getting into IS mechs, easier to build up a force of them and more available options that help with grinding. They got hero mechs and a lot more champion mechs. On top of that there was even a time when ALL the clan mechs were locked behind a paywall. This too kept many players away from that faction. Inequalities like that are horrible in a game that is supposed to be competitive.