109 replies to this topic

[AncientRaig]

So, I picked up a Catapult with the on-going sale and decided I was going to try lurmboating for a bit. I'm a little tired of SRM brawling on literally every mech I own that has a missile slot. However, I wasn't quite expecting this kind of result. While this might look like a bit of a brag post (and who am I kidding, it kind of is), I want to try and bring some attention to a bigger issue. Anti-LRM bias.



I think LRMs might get a bit of undue hatred from the community, at least in general. I personally don't know how any of you feel about them, but a well played LRM boat seems like a serious boon to a team. I wasn't really even playing at my best here, the match somewhat outran me and I couldn't armor share as much as I wanted too, but sitting just outside of the tunnel vision of an engagement I was able to put in some insane work. I actually wound up running out of ammo and having to engage with my medium lasers right at the end.

I think we've all been on the receiving end of some guy in a LRM Atlas sitting in the back of the team thinking he's an artillery piece, but it seems like that's become the prominent image of LRMs and they've got a bit of a stigma to them now. LRM boats are commonly seen as something holding the team back instead of something that opens up entire new tactical options for engaging the enemy. There needs to be some way to guide players who want to use LRMs into the more productive playstyles and tactics for that weapon, instead of just saying "you're bad and you should feel bad" whenever we see an LRM build and shoving a metamechs copypasta build down their throats until they become one with the cookie cutter collective.

[RestosIII]

Of course you had a good match. It's Polar ****ing Highlands. One of the few maps that is just easy mode for LRMs.

[Nameless King]

Also you are in tier 3 where a lot of people still dont know how to avoid lrms.

[Battlemaster56]

Oh how cute you did well on polar tardlands can do the same on that map with my MADIIC D, I only be impressed if you do it on a map with ridiculous amount of cover that a legged Dire Wolf can make it cover fairly quick.

[Y E O N N E]

More impressed by that Atlas, TBQH.

[RestosIII]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

More impressed by that Atlas, TBQH.

And then you learn it was an LRM Atlas, and lose all love for it.

[Bishop Steiner]

King Alen, on 26 January 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

Also you are in tier 3 where a lot of people still dont know how to avoid lrms.

people can only play the game that they are in.

Just because something doesn't work in Comp Tier... doesn't mean squat... unless you play in comp tier.

And yet you have mid tier "experts" who try to ape the mentality of the Comp Overlords.... which is frankly.. dumb. Because Mid to low tier is a totally different game than high tier.

[jjm1]

Good clicking.

[Y E O N N E]

RestosIII, on 26 January 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

And then you learn it was an LRM Atlas, and lose all love for it.

Maybe. I think I'd just become indifferent, since that's a terrible build all by itself, without the speed to reposition like a CPLT.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Lrms really only work in extreme scenarios like Polar Highlands or on stupid players. Really the only time you'll see good players die to them is because they were already a dead mech walking anyway or they got NARCed

[RestosIII]

Snazzy Dragon, on 26 January 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

Lrms really only work in extreme scenarios like Polar Highlands or on stupid players. Really the only time you'll see good players die to them is because they were already a dead mech walking anyway or they got NARCed

Let's just cross our fingers that A ) ATMs and MRMs get into the game, and B ) That they're not crap. Because at this point, I'm pretty sure PGI is never going to fully rework LRMs like we'd want to make them weapon systems locked into being huge feast or famine situations.

[AncientRaig]

Battlemaster56, on 26 January 2017 - 09:13 PM, said:

Oh how cute you did well on polar tardlands can do the same on that map with my MADIIC D, I only be impressed if you do it on a map with ridiculous amount of cover that a legged Dire Wolf can make it cover fairly quick.

I had a strong game on Crimson just before this one where the enemy team was using the C line city for cover and I still managed to rack up something like 500 damage with a kill or two. I didn't screenshot it because it wasn't an 831 damage rampage like this one was and I don't have unlimited hard drive space. I suppose I should've expected the T1 tryhard brigade to show up the second someone suggested that LRMs might be good and maybe we should look into them as a viable option. God forbid we try something outside of the meta.

jjm1, on 26 January 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

Good clicking.

Well, how else would I fire my weapons? My ability to mentally interface with my computer hasn't yet developed.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 January 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

people can only play the game that they are in.

Just because something doesn't work in Comp Tier... doesn't mean squat... unless you play in comp tier.

And yet you have mid tier "experts" who try to ape the mentality of the Comp Overlords.... which is frankly.. dumb. Because Mid to low tier is a totally different game than high tier.

This guy gets it. Interestingly enough, I can't comment on how any of my builds would do in T1 comp play because I haven't played there before. Funny how that works, innit?

Edited by Sidefire, 26 January 2017 - 09:36 PM.

[AncientRaig]

RestosIII, on 26 January 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

Of course you had a good match. It's Polar ****ing Highlands. One of the few maps that is just easy mode for LRMs.

I'm curious. Why is that your immediate reaction? You don't tell a brawler "Well of course you had a good match! It's Mining ****ing Colony! One of the few maps that's just easy mode for brawlers!" So, why is "well, that map is just good for LRM boats" a valid criticism, but "well, that map is just good for brawlers" or "well, that map is just good for snipers" not?

[Xiphias]

Look, the Mist Lynx is just underated. It's clearly just a good as the cheetah:


Now show me screenshots from 100 consecutive matches running LRMs and let's see how they stack up.

Outliers do not disprove statistical trends. The fact that you had a few good matches proves nothing other than that you did well in those matches.

Polar Highlands is by far the best map for LRMs. Escort mode can further help this with the towers spotting for you. As mentioned you're also in T3 where people are generally bad at dodging LRMs/don't have radar dep (to be fair I see a fair number of "T1" players who can't dodge LRMs either).

The point being that you are beating a dead horse. Sure you might do well in a match with LRMs, but that doesn't mean LRMs are a good weapon. They simply aren't compared to other options and good players will tell you that. By taking LRMs, more often than not you are disadvantaging your team, even if you are playing well, which most of the LRM boats that I see aren't.

Sure, you might get some big damage numbers, but a lot of that damage is spread and wasted. Your 800 damage probably counts for something like 400 damage from more precise weapons.

The stigma is well deserved and you are far from the first person who has tried to change the meta or make people see how LRMs can be "good". At this point I've long since given up on trying to help guide players who take LRMs into a match because 90% of them are lost causes. If someone thinks LRMs are comparable to the "meta" in the hands of a skilled player then they are probably too far gone to help. It's people who take LRMs and argue that they are good while refusing to accept any arguments to the contrary that can't be helped.

[The6thMessenger]

Sidefire, on 26 January 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm curious. Why is that your immediate reaction? You don't tell a brawler "Well of course you had a good match! It's Mining ****ing Colony! One of the few maps that's just easy mode for brawlers!" So, why is "well, that map is just good for LRM boats" a valid criticism, but "well, that map is just good for brawlers" or "well, that map is just good for snipers" not?

Lrmers =/= brawlers =/= snipers.

LRMs wrestle with a lot more factors than just a simple point and click. LRMs contrary to popular noob belief, they are hard to land. There are so much counters against it -- Cover, ECM, AMS, you are alerted when you are lurmed to name a few, you also need to acquire and retain lock to increase you chances of hitting (yes you can dumb fire it but only works with sheer luck and/or stupidity from the enemy).

AC10 is already hard to land, imagine an even slower projectiles that enemies are alerted mid-flight.

When people say that "it's good for LRM Boats", like polar highlands, consider that LRMs are homing unlike ballistic projectiles, they go over covers unlike any other direct fire which Polar Highlands don't exactly have good covers -- there are so much open space where your LRMs are unlikely to get obstructed. Unlike Gauss slugs, PPC bolts, or AC2 shells you have the luxury to adjust your missiles trajectory so long you have lock vs direct fire where improper clicks, not enough lead or just plain cover means you miss.

RestosIII, on 26 January 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Let's just cross our fingers that A ) ATMs and MRMs get into the game, and B ) That they're not crap. Because at this point, I'm pretty sure PGI is never going to fully rework LRMs like we'd want to make them weapon systems locked into being huge feast or famine situations.

I also want MMs to make people break the habit of camping.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 January 2017 - 12:13 AM.

[Kroete]

Sidefire, on 26 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Well, how else would I fire my weapons? My ability to mentally interface with my computer hasn't yet developed.

This guy gets it. Interestingly enough, I can't comment on how any of my builds would do in T1 comp play because I haven't played there before. Funny how that works, innit?

You can have fun and success on all maps with lrms, but its need a little more work then the simple hide&peek meta.
You can have fun with lrms and success over tier 3, but its needs a little more work then the simple point&click meta.

Competive gaming means playing on **** graphics, using the easist way (not more then two weapongroups!) to play and using every little exploit. Thats what a lot of players miss or will not tell, when they glorify "comp gaming".

And dont miss, metamechs dont use ams ...

Edited by Kroete, 26 January 2017 - 09:49 PM.

[Starbomber109]

jjm1, on 26 January 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

Good clicking.

Hey hey, that insult is reserved for Artillery in World of Tanks. At least LRMs hit the target half the time!

[LordNothing]

one data point is not enough.

[AncientRaig]

The6thMessenger, on 26 January 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

Lrmers =/= brawlers =/= snipers.

LRMs wrestle with a lot more factors than just a simple point and click. LRMs contrary to popular noob belief, they are hard to land. There are so much counters against it -- Cover, ECM, AMS, you are alerted when you are lurmed to name a few, you also need to acquire and retain lock to increase you chances of hitting (yes you can dumb fire it but only works with sheer luck and/or stupidity from the enemy).

I think you may have missed my point a little. I was responding to his snark about "only doing well because I was on polar highlands" and asking why that logic doesn't apply to other types of mechs on maps that they are well suited to.

[RestosIII]

Sidefire, on 26 January 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

I think you may have missed my point a little. I was responding to his snark about "only doing well because I was on polar highlands" and asking why that logic doesn't apply to other types of mechs on maps that they are well suited to.

A sniper doesn't have to sit out in the open staring at a target for several seconds to get the missiles to lock on, then stare even longer for the missiles to hit the target, when the enemy could just walk behind any visual cover on the map to complete negate it. As a brawler, all you have to do is use said cover to get in close. A LRM boat has to have the enemy dumb enough to either sit out in the open, or, again, be dumb enough to not charge them the poor guy down if he decides to go into medium-close range to use his LRMs. And that's assuming the enemy doesn't have ECM, which straight up dooms your LRMs to never work unless you have equipment to counter it.

Basically, the only maps that LRMs actually get decent damage numbers on (Which, to be fair, damage done by LRMs is worth less than damage done by any other weapon system inherently due to how the damage spreads) are maps with almost no cover. No other weapon system is limited like that. The only time I count LRMs as OP is on those maps if some kind soul has a NARC launcher. Everywhere else they're... sad and pathetic.