beerandasmoke, on 23 December 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:
Thats another good point. MWO just isnt popular enough to make hacks and cheats for at the moment. There is only one that we know of right now. Now if it were to grow to the size of World of Tanks then yeah there is serious potential for a problem then. On the other hand WOT lets people mod the game pretty heavily and thats where a lot of the hacks came from such as warpack. That coupled with the fact that they dont punish hackers is why 1 in 10 people are hacking the game according to their reports.
Theres a next gen game that should be popular called APB. A lot of money went into making it. By some accounts there is a total of 50 players online sometimes, all of which are hacking sending new players away. I was reading this as a sarcastic remark made by a player on Steam recently. Although I think it isn't far from the truth sometimes.
This is the power of hacks these days. Its a huge topic.
beerandasmoke, on 23 December 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:
I understand your point but if a game company punishes hackers severely then you will see much less of it. PGI punishes hackers pretty damn harshly with a permaban and possible ip ban which gets the alts as well. This discourages a lot of hackers. Now take for example World of Tanks who slaps people on the wrist with a week ban and lets them keep the prizes the exploited to win such as the recent rampage event for the SR22 which had hundreds of players exploiting from the top clans. WOT wouldnt step and punish them so they will do it again and again which causes players to leave the game.
Iam sorry but this is my feeling about it banning 64+1 accounts as a goodwill gesture is not the right way atleast in my eyes.
If you played WarZ/ISS you could daily see how fast bans were handed out it was roughly in the 1000s per week as the game was really popular and these accounts costed around 20 Dollars each. Just to give a perspective.
A permaban and ip block is a harsch method but is not stoping the problem of the guy making another account and hop in straight again. I would love to see MWO atleast pickup VAC as a deterrent since these guys will at some point detect a hack or the risk vs reward ratio would scale up rampantly in favor of staying clean for an old and loaded account.
The other thing is that i dont see PGI activly enforcing such things in the open(no critizism intended its up to them do to as they deem fit). If i would be a Company i would crucify openly every last cheater, if i wanted a healty game as a deterrent for the others.
sueing would work wonders too vs the guys using and producing that **** forcing them undercover
again like they belong instead of in plain sight advertising there stuff.
http://www.pcgamesn....ht-infringement
hits it on the nail
"“The Bots that "GUY" has programmed and helps distribute destroy the integrity of the XXX Games, alienating and frustrating legitimate players, and diverting revenue from XXX to Defendants,"
I know of three exploits/hacks. One is an aim bot which gets detected via the metadata fairly quickly, the other allows you to see through and shoot through terrain that loop hole in the code got fixed, and the 3rd while possibly not actually illegal and impossible to detect involves using a 2nd computer and image recognition software to detect movement/changes in the backround etc to identify enemy mechs on your screen.
Widowmaker1981, on 23 December 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:
Easy way to stop it - force all competitors to stream. Wallhacks and Aimbots become obvious, no other hacks exist for MWO to my knowledge.
well you actually would have to put all competitors in front of a given hardware they cannot alter. And where they can not to anythign except starting MWO and playing the game. A any other place they are involved the system could be altered already. The cheat for CSGO install sneaked itself,
Johnny Z, on 23 December 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:
Theres a next gen game that should be popular called APB. A lot of money went into making it. By some accounts there is a total of 50 players online sometimes, all of which are hacking sending new players away. I was reading this as a sarcastic remark made by a player on Steam recently. Although I think it isn't far from the truth sometimes.
This is the power of hacks these days. Its a huge topic.
yeah funny when you come from APB to MWO, it feels like no hackers exist. It's so peaceful here compared to APB. APB is heaviyl infested with some core hackers, and the biggets issue is that they can simply rerol (and do) and keep going. But MOW also differs a bit, because a new account has no mechs and would ahve to gather alot Cbills to buy mechs again to keep rolling. While in APB just making a new account is enough for the entire full scale hacking show.
However Fairfight stirred up a lot within APB's hackerscene by the way how FF does track statistics and detects non-human action as snapping and such. But this would probably only work on COD and CS like games, MWO mechanics may not be suitabel for this kind of stat tracking snce ther eis hardly any of these actions possible with the way how emchs are controlled.
Edited by Lily from animove, 23 December 2015 - 05:48 AM.
Iam sorry but this is my feeling about it banning 64+1 accounts as a goodwill gesture is not the right way atleast in my eyes.
If you played WarZ/ISS you could daily see how fast bans were handed out it was roughly in the 1000s per week as the game was really popular and these accounts costed around 20 Dollars each. Just to give a perspective.
A permaban and ip block is a harsch method but is not stoping the problem of the guy making another account and hop in straight again. I would love to see MWO atleast pickup VAC as a deterrent since these guys will at some point detect a hack or the risk vs reward ratio would scale up rampantly in favor of staying clean for an old and loaded account.
The other thing is that i dont see PGI activly enforcing such things in the open(no critizism intended its up to them do to as they deem fit). If i would be a Company i would crucify openly every last cheater, if i wanted a healty game as a deterrent for the others.
sueing would work wonders too vs the guys using and producing that **** forcing them undercover
again like they belong instead of in plain sight advertising there stuff.
Thats the thing though you cant just jump back in on this game for 20 dollars. It would take hundreds of dollars to get a decent garage to allow you to play at a high level. Now you might get some douchebag that runs trials and hacks for the lulz. Of course we already get that from time to time with the Teamkilling alts. They are probably going to get bored with driving junk after awhile though.
Lol...that 3rd variant you describe, Martyr ... that description sounds a bit like I would explain to others how I look at my screen Oo
So I am an Recognition-bot then, or what ?
I can tell you it ain´t so .
Technically we humans are still animalistic predators . Our teeth and some of our reflexes say so .
One of those reflexes is the "hunter´s- eye" (that "300-yards-stare" soldiers have, looking oh so inactive, still noticing most things around them/ those odd fps wizkids, staring straight at their screens, seeing everything without actually moving the eyes) .
One stares out into the distance without actually focusing consciously, instead letting experience, training and even the subconscious guide the eye in such a way that it more or less automatically keeps in "search-mode" until it gets triggered into "lock-mode" by any visual disturbance it picks up in it´s widened FoV .
Disadvantage of this is that actual identification of "locked moving triggering-object" has to happen after the eye returns to "normal" -consciously-controlled mode .
So much on us humans and some of the mysterious ways we function.
Still, hacks exist undeniably, although I couldn´t really fathom this game being "big" enough in the "scene" to get targeted harder by cheat-programmers .
Lily from animove, on 23 December 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:
well you actually would have to put all competitors in front of a given hardware they cannot alter. And where they can not to anythign except starting MWO and playing the game. A any other place they are involved the system could be altered already. The cheat for CSGO install sneaked itself,
yeha funny when you coem from APB to MWO, it feels like no hackers exist. It's so peaceful here compared to APB. APB is heaviyl infested with some core hackers, and the biggets issue is that they can simply rerol (and do) and keep going. But MOW also differs a bit, because a new account has no mechs and would ahve to gather alot Cbills to buy mechs again to keep rolling. While in APB just making a new account is enough for the entire full scale hacking show.
However Fairfight stirred up a lot within APB's hackerscene by the way how FF does track statistics and detects non-human action as snapping and such. But this would probably only work on COD and CS like games, MWO mechanics may not be suitabel for this kind of stat tracking snce ther eis hardly any of these actions possible with the way how emchs are controlled.
I tried a FTP game called Unturned that is chock full of hackers like that. After about a dozen times of getting killed by a naked guy brandishing a goldclub while I dumped clip after clip into him from a sub machinegun with no effect I was done with PvsP servers in that game.
Edited by beerandasmoke, 23 December 2015 - 05:49 AM.
beerandasmoke, on 23 December 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:
I tried a FTP game called Unturned that is chock full of hackers like that. After about a dozen times of getting killed by a naked guy brandishing a goldclub while I dumped clip after clip into him from a sub machinegun with no effect I was done with PvsP servers in that game.
wow, lol, but wow, whoever allows health hacks to exist (meaning non server sided health handling) deservers to get his game ripped apart. Thats like placing your money on the street overnight and claiming to get robbed. It's sad that hacks have to be taken into account when designing a game nowdays, but it's necessary.
beerandasmoke, on 23 December 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:
Thats the thing though you cant just jump back in on this game for 20 dollars. It would take hundreds of dollars to get a decent garage to allow you to play at a high level. Now you might get some douchebag that runs trials and hacks for the lulz. Of course we already get that from time to time with the Teamkilling alts. They are probably going to get bored with driving junk after awhile though.
It isn't the low end players doing the hacks..... Its such a huge problem it likely has to do with actually trying to get players banned. Consoles may have something to do with it being the competition. And the way the world works these days it could have something to do with the peeps that want to get paid to stop the hacks. This is common knowledge stuff for centuries and could be entirely wrong, or partly wrong or partly right. Who knows. But one thing is for sure, it aint the little guy. Not for something of this scale.
In my 2 years I've only seen aimbots and that was in my first few months of playing and after that mass ban I haven't seen seen nothing like that ever since...or I've gotten good enough to make their aimbots irrelevant.
No known hacks, just a mech with ECM and some sever lag maybe, but if you do catch a cheater record him if you can and report it.
I've seen a few suspicious things over the years - the guy with the Dual Gauss Jager that had no problem head-shotting people repeatedly at long range, despite them moving at a right angle to his vision, up a hill and over terrain at full speed while not staring at him... Or the time I somehow was killed in a fresh Atlas from a single cockpit shot from my right side composed of nothing but an AC20 and a PPC or two hitting at about the same time... despite the weapons not having anywhere near the same flight speed or characteristics (AC20 shell drops, PPC bolt does not.) So, there have been been a few cases where something was most definitely off and "not right" in a game, but those are rare exceptions - under 5 instances total that I can recall. Still, a pile of people were banned for cheats, so it is simply wrong to say that they don't exist in this game.
So, it is very unlikely that cheaters or hackers are the cause of the issues here; the game has a lot of subtle ways to sneak up on people (ECM, radar derp, staying behind cover and behind people) and ways to know people are coming (allies, Seismic, etc.) It can be confusing to new players, certainly.
Edited by oldradagast, 23 December 2015 - 08:16 AM.
Also If I alpha 3 LPL, 3 times into a storm crow CT standing still not firing directly in front of my mech while I am standing still and no damage registers. Then I can be 100% sure of a "health" hack.
I know the damage wasn't registering because one of them basically told me it wasn't. I also hope he doesn't get any trouble for it.
Basically one of the other team ran up to my mech away from the fight a bit. Stopped, then ran away. Not taking any damage.
The type of people like you who cry hacks because something funky happened are the same type of people who don't bother recording their gameplay to show incidents to other people. Get with the game! If you see something questionable, have a recording of it. If you see questionable things regularly, then always be recording - you're sure to catch something so that you can share it with other people and PGI.
Johnny Z, on 22 December 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:
Like I said when I first mentioned this. It may be purposely or not. But One thing is for sure, that its happening vrs the top teams fairly regular and not against pick up teams or on the solo queue is interesting. Although I have seen it once just as bad on the solo queue a year ago or so.
Strange, so only the top level teams are hacking, yet only a bunch of nobodies and unheard-of's comprised the list of 64 banned players?
Johnny Z, on 22 December 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:
But only once and it was a wolverine who was also quite sure he was invulnerable.
Psycho Icon, on 22 December 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:
I find them to be quite popular, I see it all the time. Expecially wall hackers, they are at all levels of the game.
Good, you see them all the time! This is a great thing, because it means that if you installed some recording software, such as ShadowPlay or Fraps any number of options, you have a high probability of catching someone in the act. Highly recommend ShadowPlay for this of course, because you don't have to consciously make an effort to start recording.
KahnWongFuChung, on 22 December 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:
Once again, I said WHERE IS YOUR PROOF!?!!?
ASK PGI you know dam well you cant post it on the forums because the EULA so stop baiting players into a ban.
You know, there's a place where you can post proof and talk openly about specific people alllllll you want. I'll give you a hint: it's not the Steam forums or r/OutreachHPG. If anybody ever records proof, they have to means to present it before a wide audience.
Xoco, on 23 December 2015 - 03:13 AM, said:
Things like ECM ... is the epitome of P2Win (or just grind to win)
Are we playing the same game? The first mech I bought in the game was an ECM mech. Cicada. Now with the money you get from the Tutorial and extra earnings boost overall, you can buy a Hellbringer after about 5 matches played just starting in the game. Maybe only 4.
Lily from animove, on 23 December 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:
they should be cheaper in xp and cbills to allow the newbies to outfit a dropdeck faster. gathering and equipping 4 mechs alone will take them time, and the modules ontop is just very massively, especially since they are newbies and may perform not soo good getting them less cbills per match.
Like divorce Seismic Sensor is expensive because it is worth it. Newbies should focus on one mech first, then get the module, then build a drop deck. That module will help far more building a drop deck than hammering away with mechs not equipped with one.
Its not the players job to catch cheaters LMFAO, its PGI's job. Why should I install anything that would make my computer run hot or harder than it needs to. I cant stream because my upload isp sucks donkey balls.
I report these players with the in-game system. Thats all I have privy to.
The type of people like you who cry hacks because something funky happened
Yeah we are all scrubs and need a git gutt and l2p **** since we are all tier 5 underhive .
I mean i clearly cant compete with people that shoot out the only open and possible kill partition on a nearly fresh
ecm mech +300m away, sorry iam just not that good. Same with neutering 2 sidetorsos in 1 mpl blast git gud scrub.
Or that guy thats laser shoots in the air and then are magically nailed at my sidetorso .
Did i mention the guys shooting through geometry? better git gud filthy casual.
There is more like LAGHACK which is the biggest one that is used in MWO and nearly all other online games.
The rest is open knowledge like DropHacks or Armorhacks, Silentaim, Boneaim and so on blabla.
Why they use it ? because everybody that is BETTER then them is using it. Basically forcing them to use cheats, wow i turned your argument 180 around and sended it back, noice!
Tarogato, on 23 December 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:
Strange, so only the top level teams are hacking, yet only a bunch of nobodies and unheard-of's comprised the list of 64 banned players?
who else would bother tbh ? the truth is in the moderatepudding. Its not the first time on the interwebs that people cheat for bragging rights only and nobody could argue that the biggest audience for hacks are competitive people. Kinda funny how effed up that is if you think about it.
People want to distinguish them trough performance but instead of git gud use cheats to compensate =D.
Since who wants to show effort or wants to climb a skill ceiling when everything can melt away at a doubleclick. Since there are literally 0 real life repercussions except making a new account IF you get
found out and thats a big IF to my knowledge.
now getting silly ? i guess so since thats neither what he means nor has anything to do with the discussion. except you making yourself a laughing stock to the other vets.
I tell you that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. bee it deliberatly blind or blind thorugh naivity is unimportant.
I mean i clearly cant compete with people that shoot out the only open and possible kill partition on a nearly fresh ecm mech +300m away
Sounds like you encountered somebody who knows how to aim. And hey, if your component is open, then its smoking, and the enemy can see that without a paperdoll readout.
Inkarnus, on 23 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
Same with neutering 2 sidetorsos in 1 mpl blast
Hey, that's something I've actually done before in my TDR-5SS! Look, two cherry side torsos on a Clan mech... *swipes across both sides and gets the kill*
Inkarnus, on 23 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
Or that guy thats laser shoots in the air and then are magically nailed at my sidetorso .
You mean somebody who missed, and then corrected his aim?
Inkarnus, on 23 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
Did i mention the guys shooting through geometry?
Physically impossible except in a few very specific spots on certain maps that you have to know like the back of your hand. Not hacks, it's knowledge of maps and their geometry, whether its buggy or not.
Inkarnus, on 23 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
There is more like LAGHACK which is the biggest one that is used in MWO and nearly all other online games.
And explain to me how people are managing to use this in MWO and tell me about some situations where you might expect it to be in use.
Inkarnus, on 23 December 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:
The rest is open knowledge like DropHacks or Armorhacks, Silentaim, Boneaim and so on blabla.
Some open knowledge that is... I actually have never heard of any of those terms before. So... what again? What do they do and why? And how do you identify when people are them?
Hi pilots, it's close a month I play MWO and I saw some players crying about hacks used by other players.
The say they "ghost" themselves to come behind other players and free kill em.
I always answer that, in my opinion, no hack is used: cos first of all playing on Steam, I guess there is an anti-hack system and second... maybe I am naive, but I think players don't have fun if they have a free victory.
Oh and there is a camouflage too. I don't know what it does, but the name makes me think that is something to hide the mech to enemies.
Pls, i wish U could tell me that I am right, that the team with better skill and better teamplay wins and not the one less fair...
Always Steiner,
Zeta
First and foremost, MWO uses a Server-authority network. That is to say unlike most games where the Client is the authority of each experience (Combat Arms for example, My client says there are boxes here that I'm hiding under... but His client never saw the boxes get moved there, and so there are no boxes there. My client says I should be hidden, his client says I'm in the open), MWO's on a network that has everything run from the server.
This is to say that my client has to ask for permission to do something. Instead of "I'm moving forward," from a Client authority, MWO has "Can I move forward?" "Yes." "I am attempting to accelerate." "You can accelerate at a given rate of X Kilometers per hour per second and no greater." "I want to accelerate faster!" "NOPE."
A client authority game allows your client to say "I am coming around the (LAG SPIKE!) Teleported past the corner behind the bad guy! BLAM! Die! DIE DIE DIE!"
A server authority game tells you "Due to a lag spike You're coming around the corner faster than you're allowed to, moving you back before the corner." (What? But I was just....dang it!)
You are where the game says you should be, not where you want to be. And it will put you back into your place appropriately if you try to circumvent it whether intentionally or accidentally.
Same with shooting, if it can't be done from where the server says you are, then it won't happen. Unlike Battlefield 3, your client can't say "I'm doing an impossible shot" and get an "OK, you got it!" from the server. Instead you'd be on MWO like "I'm gonna do an impossible shot," and the server will say "********."
The 'hacks' that have existed involve accuracy or knowing where things are when you shouldn't. Things that don't have to go 'through' the server so to speak.
Next: Camouflage does not have an affect on whether or not a mech appears on sensors in MWO -- it isn't quite there and I don't think it ever will be. It does help hide players from other players WHEN there's no signatures under the guise of ECM.
MeiSooHaityu, on 22 December 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:
Although there have been hacks used (and mass bans by PGI because of it), I have never heard of a "ghost" hack.
It is possible that new players are not familiar with ECM mechs and an ECM mech's ability to be difficult to spot on sensors and target. This mechanic might be causing the confusion. ECM does make it easier to sneak around and get behind an enemy mech undetected.
ECM can be countered though. Other teammate ECM mechs can counter an enemy ECM signature. Also things like UAVs can spot enemy ECM mechs as well. Other items such as BAP, TAG, NARC, and even PPC/ERPPCs can target ECM mechs and/or disrupt ECM signals.
This is just my guess about why players may think enemy mechs are cheating (ghosting), when really they are flanking under the cover of ECM.
Widowmaker1981, on 22 December 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:
Probably new players who don't know what ECM is think its a hack.
Scurry, on 22 December 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:
And those who aren't aware that contacts only appear on minimap if they are within line-of-sight/targeted by someone else.
This is a pretty likely case, between today and yesterday I've made around 20 kills by walking up behind people and taking them out with a quick strike from 100 to 500 meters away. Their allies are ~usually~ unaware until the second or third guy falls.
Server authority at work:
While shooting, "Client thinks it's here, way behind. Server says they're here, way ahead!" (I'm hitting where the SERVER says it is, despite clearly it's way ahead on the Client. Back then the client didn't show 'corrections' as well as it does now. Take not that despite clearly missing, it says I hit, and despite clearly hitting it says I miss during the circle of death. That's the client/server conflict before "HSR" which is "Host State Rewind" where the game server checks mathematically to see how far off from the server your 'client' might see things and if your shot should hit, it will and if it shouldn't then it won't. Mind you if your ping varies rapidly, HSR can't help you...and it shouldn't because you're probably trying to cheat anyway.)
Upon collision! "NOPE, you didn't fall there, you're here."
Collision! Second collision! Notice where I fall, and where I get up. A "Correction" occurs then.
Better server-side corrections to client.
The server says "NOPE, you can't do this." Client says I can, server says I can't, and the server is always right.
At least the server says its always right, and it's the boss.
Server authority's biggest issue. Server doesn't have actual 3D rendering, just "placements" of assets, and the placement of the asset of stated collision size and actual 3D rendering will differ, causing a LOT of problems with worldly surfaces and collision. The TAG here is stopped by the SERVER version of the pillar, even though the 3D version of the pillar isn't that big; the server is always right (even when it's wrong) and that's what you have to deal with. (This makes fighting uphill almost impossible. Try running a TAG and test surfaces, you'd be amazed and appalled.)
Killian Kell, on 22 December 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:
Yeah, I take those hack accusations with a grain of salt.
Yah me too. I've seen some guys make amazing shots. Yes, they really can guass headshot you from across the map while you are moving 151kph. They are that good.
That said, just because newbies tend to cry "hack" doesn't mean they aren't out there. A few of the guys in the 64 banwave said they only got caught because they got complacent - they weren't expecting PGI to check for hacks and they logged in during the short window of time where their hacker company hadn't yet patched to avoid PGI's detection methods.
So both can be true: "Yes you are being paranoid, but yes also - that guy on the corner really is stalking you.
Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 23 December 2015 - 09:55 AM.
5
beerandasmoke, on 23 December 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:
