66 replies to this topic

[Kotev]

To play Clan now in CW is hard mode, but who likes the challenge like me will play Clan

[Jack Spade Ward]

Alienized, on 25 December 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

hm bad mech.... if its that bad... how can a *bad player* like me get the ace of spades title with a executioner.... propably playing it right.
a banshee? l3l a barn door that requires XL and is easy to take out. gargles is underestimated because its a brawl mech (like the executioner, it just requires too much skill and balls to play it right, sorry for those who cant.)


if you dont understand how a mech works then you should not talk about the mech. as you just done.

oh and im such noob. i know myself. lel.

You got you ace os spades beacuse you were lucky, agaisnt noobs on the game.
I got my ace of spades a long time ago with my Hunchie 4G (F). And with my Jagger dual AC20 i got once 10 kills.
And yes, you are a noob... a guy to actually say that the executioner is OP!!!! LMAO

Please, i so much want to get you on the battlefield lol

[Alienized]

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

You got you ace os spades beacuse you were lucky, agaisnt noobs on the game.
I got my ace of spades a long time ago with my Hunchie 4G (F). And with my Jagger dual AC20 i got once 10 kills.
And yes, you are a noob... a guy to actually say that the executioner is OP!!!! LMAO

Please, i so much want to get you on the battlefield lol

its not OP its a fine mech and far away from beeing crap. if you load that mech with ppc, er large lasers etc it will always be bad lol. sadly alot of people dont understand easy things like this. same happens to the gargles.

oh and so long ago... against noobs. congratz l3l.

im not even taking u seriously since all you do is blatant boating anyway. like most forum warriors.

Kotev, on 25 December 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

To play Clan now in CW is hard mode, but who likes the challenge like me will play Clan

because alot of top units switched sides now, you just play against better players.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Alienized, on 25 December 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

its not OP its a fine mech and far away from beeing crap. if you load that mech with ppc, er large lasers etc it will always be bad lol. sadly alot of people dont understand easy things like this. same happens to the gargles.

oh and so long ago... against noobs. congratz l3l.

im not even taking u seriously since all you do is blatant boating anyway. like most forum warriors.





because alot of top units switched sides now, you just play against better players.

Not a Forum warrior, a proven one. And you seem way to noob to take you seriously. A guy that actually thinks that a GAR and a EXC is a good and usefull mech?
I have 4 EXC and 3 GAR, mastered them all, and those suck... in my opinion the only viable assault clan mech is the warhawk... the whale is not playable whatsoever since the last patch that killed the clans...

Better players? Hummm.... than that is why the clans won tukkayyid... since 228, MS and other top teams decided to go clans... if it was the other way around, i wonder ...

[Alienized]

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Not a Forum warrior, a proven one. And you seem way to noob to take you seriously. A guy that actually thinks that a GAR and a EXC is a good and usefull mech?
I have 4 EXC and 3 GAR, mastered them all, and those suck... in my opinion the only viable assault clan mech is the warhawk... the whale is not playable whatsoever since the last patch that killed the clans...

Better players? Hummm.... than that is why the clans won tukkayyid... since 228, MS and other top teams decided to go clans... if it was the other way around, i wonder ...

did u ever see where -MS- and so on are now? prob not so let me tell ya that -MS- are with steiner now. AS are on liao. 228 seem to be on rasalhague.

viable in what? executioner and gargles are pure brawlers, and they do that better than warhawk or direwolf for sure. if u want mobility then use a executioner and use its potential in staying mobile.

another thing is i never play any meta loadout ever. (exception is CW on a few occasions)
if you ever get out of your minmax then you even might learn to play executioner. until then... lolno.

[DivineEvil]

Russhuster, on 25 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

You are right, there are alot of bad Clan mechs i do play those too ,.. just not in CW One is forced to play meta and even if ts dangerous for a Clanner laservomit there there IS no alternative- or?

- There's bad mechs for Clan and there's bad mechs for IS. Obvious personal bias.
- Nobody is forced to play meta.
- There are alternatives to laser-vomit, both for IS and Clans. Only the lack of one's abilities leads to the conclusion, that laser-vomit is the strongest approach. It's just the most simple one.

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Better Speed? I tend to disagree IS mechs CAN be brought to higher speeed than Clan Mechs CANT they stick exept the IIC to the engine they have so a 48 kph Dire will never be faster but every IS mech outruns the leaden duck with ease

IS mechs can be faster, but they will never be capable of housing as much firepower as Clan mechs, simply because their weapons take more, while their upgrades give less.

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OFC you do need a larger engine therefore sacrifice tonnage for speed but simply look at the Tonnage and free load capacity

Every Clan mech has compared to IS a ridiculous small payload. so no advantage in Speed at all en contraire i would say
out of the simple fact IS CAN go faster, the decision is with the player Clan CANT.

- Clan XLs occupy less space and are not disabled by side-torso destruction. Whenever you'd try to match the speed and loadout of Clan mech, you either has STD engine, which takes 40% more tonnage, or an XL engine, which is disabled by ST destruction.
- Clan Mechs can equip almost any combination of weapons, the decision is with the player. IS mechs can't. IS and IIC mechs are built to use specific types of weapons, while Clan Onis are built to be run on specific speeds. What's the point?

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Better Survivability? more mobility? pardon me

with all the structure additional AR and agility quirks with imultanuously nerfing Clan in agility -20%
the survivabilzy Advantage is at the IS side , but please What gives more survivabuility to a clan mech the fact that its now moving/turning slower? Most IS mechs got Massive movement and agility quirks Clans got just the Nerf to the Face

- 20% penalty is applied only when Clan XL loses a ST component. When IS XL loses a ST component, you're dead. When IS mech is desired not to die this way, it pays a price of 30% of it's loadout for it, from the start to the end of the match.
- Mobility quirks for IS mechs are directed to specific chosen parameters, usually relative to other mech's properties. Mechs or variants, that are inherently better do not get substantial, if any, mobility bonuses. On the other hand, large Clan XL engines amplify all of these parameters, including Top and Reverse speeds. No IS mech currently has any Speed quirks. Some Clan mechs also has mobility quirks. Combined with relatively smaller profiles and sleek hitboxes, Clan Omni-mechs are indeed substantially harder to kill, if a pilot is not a potato.

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An Example: Highlander Not the IS Quirkgod no but even that mech got

-20% agility(Skilltree) PLUS 55% acc and decc Quirk 35% turn Rate +10 torso turn angle +15% torso twist quirk +massive AR quirks (+19 AR in the Arms ) + massive structure quirks up to additional 29 structure depending on the section)
so i would say the agility on Is was even after the Nerf higher than bevore on Clan side ? there was just the Nerf right?

Great example. It's clearly shows the futility of your uneducated opinion. Despite all of those quirks you've listed, the mech itself remains arguably the worst Assault mech ever since the general JJet power reduction. All those quirks are desperate attempt to make Highlanders a desirable purchase, nothing more.

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Why do you think even a Blackjack has survival capacity of an Atlas now

This is a bit provocative spoken but i think you see my point

No, I don't. And no, Blackjacks are not nearly as tough as you preter to think.

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more range?

with the god-mode Quirks the Range advantage is with IS and people play meta and according to the quirks at least in CW i do see this almost only
Considering unquirked pure weapon range true there the Advantage is at Clanside but in an quirked mech this advantage is on IS side or egalized at the least

Which exactly means, that IS has to purchase and use specific variants of specific mechs with specific quirks to succeed with specific weapons, while Clans has general advantage irrelevant of the mech chosen, and these "equalized" weapons still occupy less space, take less tonnage and produce higher DPS, than their IS alternatives.

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The missle weight is lower but the missle itself is a great disadvantage whilst IS fires a pulk of rockets in one shot Clan fires a stream A Clan Rocket mech has to expose way longer than the IS

Neither LRMs requires you to expose yourself. Clan LRMs do require the target to be exposed for longer, but they're also more accurate, since a stream of missiles has the same small spread radius regardless of the launcher size they're fired from. IS Launchers spread more from larger launchers, and firing several launchers at once increases the spread even more. Thus it's but a feature of both tech-bases, not the advantage on IS side, and since Clan LRMs take half the tonnage, the advantage is actually on their side still.

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But iam with you when you should put up the thesis the clan SSrM is a light advantage for Clan

This "light advantage" effectively makes IS SSRM2 completely redundant. Clan SSRMs is an ultimate Light-slayer weapon, which IS simply has no analogues for. It's not just a "light advantage", unless of course you have strong personal bias for Clans.

Edited by DivineEvil, 25 December 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[DivineEvil]

Spadejack, on 25 December 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Not a Forum warrior, a proven one. And you seem way to noob to take you seriously. A guy that actually thinks that a GAR and a EXC is a good and usefull mech?
I have 4 EXC and 3 GAR, mastered them all, and those suck... in my opinion the only viable assault clan mech is the warhawk... the whale is not playable whatsoever since the last patch that killed the clans...

Better players? Hummm.... than that is why the clans won tukkayyid... since 228, MS and other top teams decided to go clans... if it was the other way around, i wonder ...

EXE' and GAR' are fine mechs. The problem lies with a general public, which is incapable of even rudimentary cooperation, which is required for marginally effective brawling. Both IS and Clan auditory is fixated around the idea of cowardish long and mid-range trading, thus the Clan mechs are regarded as good only as long as they're good at this particular playstyle.

GAR's, EXE's and NVA's are not good for tradings shots - their profiles are too large, and their hardpoints are too low. These mechs, even from lore standpoint, were designed for mobile brawling. All of their nature scream about that. They can quirkly move into the enemy line and disrupt it, while other mechs, like the DWFs, that you're so ignorantly underestimate, do the major bulk of the actual damage, unhindered. If you're incapable of understanding the nature of a mech by summing up it's basic features, you have a lot to learn in this game still.

This is Combined Arms 101 - the strongest army is the one with several types of units playing their best roles, covering for weaknesses of other types. It's not the uniform mess of mediocrities, which you call "the meta". Meta is a figment of popular opinion, nothing more. It's a byproduct of people's inability to embrace the infant degree of role warfare, that MWO currently has. Both IS and Clan groups are capable of wiping-out any perfectly meta-built team with properly mixed brawler/support decks, simply because it works against the primary drawback of current meta - unsustainability.

[Russhuster]

Dear Divine Evil

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- There's bad mechs for Clan and there's bad mechs for IS. Obvious personal bias.<br />
- Nobody is forced to play meta.
- There are alternatives to laser-vomit, both for IS and Clans. Only the lack of one's abilities leads to the conclusion, that laser-vomit is the strongest approach. It's just the most simple one.

Have you played CW recently? if you want to suceed you are forced to ply along the meta rules
Personal bias ? if you wish to articulate one likes to win , yes, then youre right

A Question What happens if you do not play along quirk or at least alon less Neerf on Clan side
The IS-God mode quirk buckets will stomp you as simple as that is - because alot of players DO follow the meta

As long the PPC Bug is not fixed and the UAC and AC are bugy as well the choice´s getting somewhat thinnish - isnt it?

what shall one use on CW ? srm ? yeah for sure - we should try to stay reasonable

Yes there are a whole lot Clan chassis suffering terribly under the Overall Nerfing of Clan on each and everything whilst competetive Chassis like the TBR can cope with Agility Nerf and several Heat-nerfs this is killing other Clan Chassis
Have you seen much Mist Lynx? Ferrets? KitFoxes? Novae? Summoner Gargoyles or even Executioner been played not to speak of the Whale? Now asking youself why s that so?
All or the large Number of Clan players do lack of ability? so whos biased there then? besides the you re just to bad of a player is just a cold one i know my average match score and alow myself to smirk for lame words like those

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IS mechs can be faster, but they will never be capable of housing as much firepower as Clan mechs, simply because their weapons take more, while their upgrades give less.

have you played a clan mech ? every clan tech is smaller true but every Clan mech has a way smaller Payload to compensate this for example you can pack 5 IS heavy pulse lasers plus 3-4 heat sinks in a Wubbolt but you cannot fit 5 clan heavy pulse lasers in an Helbringer without any heatsonk be notet you may fit that in when you strip almost all armor off
Zero leg, zero leg, Zero Arm etc still with no heatsink. so
if you fire that5 heavy pulsers in the Thunderbolt yiu dont even run hot
you can fire two times bevore the mech is in red area in hot cards it goes shutdown

Wjhat does happen when you dare to fire these 5 heavy pulsers in the helbringer on frozen City? one of the coldest environments Guess?
right immediate shutdown and heavy internal damage
on moderate cards you just blow up so who is housing more firepower?
Always consider the Clan tech may be smaller but Clan get as Nerf By coding very puny space for weapons or equipment
A 70 ton Clan mech gets measy 20 Ton payload an 80 Ton even royal 19.5 tons
even a Blackjack or a Firestarter do laugh over that payload
but please feel free to prove iam wrong

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- 20% penalty is applied only when Clan XL loses a ST component. When IS XL loses a ST component, you're dead. When IS mech is desired not to die this way, it pays a price of 30% of it's loadout for it, from the start to the end of the match.<br />
- Mobility quirks for IS mechs are directed to specific chosen parameters, usually relative to other mech's properties. Mechs or variants, that are inherently better do not get substantial, if any, mobility bonuses. On the other hand, large Clan XL engines amplify all of these parameters, including Top and Reverse speeds. No IS mech currently has any Speed quirks. Some Clan mechs also has mobility quirks. Combined with relatively smaller profiles and sleek hitboxes, Clan Omni-mechs are indeed substantially harder to kill, if a pilot is not a potato.

First that 20% agility Nerf we got all by the skilltree chhange but whilst the UIS got pampered quirks so the mech is more agile after the nerf as bevore the Clan mech just gets the Nerf in the Face and NOTHING else
True if a side torso is blewn out you get slower more than 20%( What is an additional thing) but a Clan player has no choice you can not change the engine
What happens when an IS standart engine gets the sid torso blewn out?
nothing ?
advantage for IS one could say following your line fo reasoning in the reverse no?
Following your line of reasoniong lagre IS reactors DO amplify those factors as well no?
AND the Player has the choice if and how far the trade Tonnage / Reactor shall go Clan Players Have NO Choice there
they cant even change Jump jets what are hardcoded as well as Structure or Armor
Three Choices a IS player has to gain flexibility and weight for the reactor
What has the Clan Player? NOTHING ? right.
the Clan Player has no choice. The IS player HAS that choice and that is the advantage for IS
and +35% torso twisting speed isnt geting substantial?
double internal structure isnt geting substantial? are you kidding? 2X + 19 Ar with NO weight Cost is not substantial???

Clan Mechs get if at all puny quirk rates of 5-10% some seldom guests as the adder gets abit more
but absolutely NOWHERE you see acc / decc Bonusses of 70% like in some IS mechs i call that Roadrunner Style instand stop and instand fullspeed
Smaller profiles? ever sat in a Nova Ebon Jaguar Helbringer or an Summoner? you are a walking center Torso so to say
Same Problem with the Executioner some of them even get hit in the CT when geting shot from the side

Clan Mechs do not have gotten ridiculous Armor and structure quirks so in Relation to the IS mechs these are easier to kill
less AR + less Structure = less damage to kill
THat has nothing to do with skill just with geometry and basic calculation

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Great example. It's clearly shows the futility of your uneducated opinion. Despite all of those quirks you've listed, the mech itself remains arguably the worst Assault mech ever since the general JJet power reduction. All those quirks are desperate attempt to make Highlanders a desirable purchase, nothing more.

youre making an interesting assertion here de fato more than one
First i like my Highlanders and my heavy metal dearly, in fact i do play these on a regular basis and am able to perform quite well in those worst assault mech ever

708216164118641360 2015-12-24 00:32:05 471 C-Bills: 112,500 C-Bills
707653304359534412 2015-12-24 00:51:24 258 C-Bills: 75,000 C-Bills
708498442254276849 2015-12-24 12:04:21 432 C-Bills: 100,000 C-Bills

done in an highlander Heavy Metal i bought even bevore clan release an also bevore any ridiculous quirking desaster; any questions?

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No, I don't. And no, Blackjacks are not nearly as tough as you preter to think.

double structure isnt tough ??? then i assume youre not biased to IS at all
vthat sentence i would consider as extreme fanboyism

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Which exactly means, that IS has to purchase and use specific variants of specific mechs with specific quirks to succeed with specific weapons, while Clans has general advantage irrelevant of the mech chosen, and these &quot;equalized&quot; weapons still occupy less space, take less tonnage and produce higher DPS, than their IS alternatives.

I tend to say you are a little false there
AS Clan you have to purchase these variants as well AND have to if you want to change something buy specific Omnipods at high prices ( and additional Nerfs on it in some cases) and only certain configurations de facto the IS with its larger number of variants is in general as flexible in the loadout question as clan
i d like to drive a Warhawk with three AK spaces but that is simply not possible
i could embed omnipods for 2 AK spaces but that would leave me with only one energy weap place so three weapons on a 85 ton mech ? Great!
Yes Clan equipment needs less space but Clan loadout is coded very meager so that equals alot or do you know of an IS 80ton mech with not even 20 ton space in it ?
When you look at the DPS the greater Heat capacity of IS Heatsinks allows more salvos and even if you compare the lasers you will see the Clan laser does a little more damage, yes but needs to be focussed longer time to do so so the DPS is equal and in short range the cooler IS weaps do more DPS than hot Clan weapons with an inefficcient heat management heat sinks at almost single heat sink capacity and horrendous ghost heat
so i have to say your not teling any sense
please compare yourself
and then consider the Godmode-quirks some IS chassis do have attatched

To The LRM a stream of rockets is easier taken down by AMS than a pulk
first advantage
to fire a stream a Clan Mech has to expose itself more / longer time to prevent teh rockets flying against your covering structure while a pulk of rockets is fired in one shot - second advantage
The Clan Launchers have more heat and ghostheat, therefore the IS launcher occupies more space / tonnage but IS mechs have larger payload, so i call this an even - agreed?
with Artemis FLS BOTH focus equally and weigh equally more so no spreading disadvantage large launchers fired simultanuously give evil ghost heat on clan side and more spread as well so in general i d say advantage on IS side
Firing Large launchers without Artemis is no IS disadvantage its pilot stupidity

For the SSRM it IS a light advantage because it has to be locked as most IS Mechs are running at 130 + most with ECM thats a funny job and not so easy as you may think and far from an ultimate weapon as you try to put it
matter of factly these are more of an nasty kick weapon for slower mediums a light is over all hills bevore you got it target locked so
not that of an advantage

At the end of the day i dont see much of your theses left

with friendly regards

Rußhuster

Edited by Russhuster, 25 December 2015 - 06:31 PM.

[Half Ear]

Clan vs IS Balance - should just step back and understand that the issue is more due to the CW weight increase, which was done to help with the influx of newbie/Steam players (based from previous encounters on how PGI would make quick changes). Now was amount itself the right thing to do is another question.

You also have lots of newbie Clanners dropping too, if ya take notice of the mechs being used. Atm, whether there had been a quirk pass or not, the IS side with its current and trial mech setup is better off than Clans, more so with the current weight increase.

IS newbies has an easier time meeting the 265-ton limit but Clan newbies are at 205-tons (T-wolf, Stormcrow, Cheetah Shadowcat). The trial Jagua (shudders), the Adder (okay w/twin ERPPC but one trick pony), the Executioner/Dire leaves the rest of the deck extremely hamstring.

There is the request to allow only 2 trial mechs in a CW deck. Meaning a player would need own at least two other Faction mechs before being allowed to drop in CW.

Now, will PGI keep the current CW weight limits after the holidays? I believe many people are wondering the same thing for different reasons.

Edited by Half Ear, 25 December 2015 - 08:50 PM.

[DivineEvil]

Russhuster, on 25 December 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

Dear Divine Evil

Have you played CW recently? if you want to suceed you are forced to ply along the meta rules
Personal bias ? if you wish to articulate one likes to win , yes, then youre right

I'm playing CW each day whenever I'm playing MWO at all, ever since the CW launch.
Your personal bias isn't that you want to win the match. It's that you want to ein an argument, thus you're looking at the question from one side, i.e. only accepting negative aspects of Clan mechs and positive aspects of IS mechs, but never the opposite. You're likely used to being able to easily win over the IS players simply because the mechs you've been running were outright better. Now, when the balance is extremely close, your mechs can no longer carry your game for you, thus the frustration.

And again, you're not forced to play by an rules. I regularly play solo with non-meta builds, mostly heavy ballistic loadouts, and still can do 1500-2000 damage in a match, where everyone else is only capable of laser-vomits, whether IS or Clan.

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A Question What happens if you do not play along quirk or at least alon less Neerf on Clan side

The IS-God mode quirk buckets will stomp you as simple as that is - because alot of players DO follow the meta

It's kinda hard to not play along the quirks, since all IS mechs has them in one degree or another. Aside from few particular cases, like Highlanders, Vindicators and lower-case Light mechs, all IS mechs and their variants are viable when used for the role they're fit to. Same is true for Clan mechs.

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As long the PPC Bug is not fixed and the UAC and AC are bugy as well the choice´s getting somewhat thinnish - isnt it?


what shall one use on CW ? srm ? yeah for sure - we should try to stay reasonable

What PPC bug? I've been able to endure the CW Defense match, using the BJ-3 with dual PPCs, dealing total of 1552 damage. And that was before the PTS4 quirk buff/rework. I also mastered Stormcrows and Timber Wolfs for MRBC leagues, despite being IS loyalist, and haven't noticed any problems with Clan UACs, trying every single type of them. They're not buggy. Both PPCs and ACs require practice for being used effectively. Clan variants require just a little bit more of that, and if you have wrapped your head around the IS projectile weapons prior, then it takes almost no effort to used Clan weapons just as well. And yes, you can use SRMs now, because they're much more reliable, than before. It would also take some practice.

The whole idea, that weapon is bad because you can't use it right away, like lasers, is just silly.

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Yes there are a whole lot Clan chassis suffering terribly under the Overall Nerfing of Clan on each and everything whilst competetive Chassis like the TBR can cope with Agility Nerf and several Heat-nerfs this is killing other Clan Chassis

Have you seen much Mist Lynx? Ferrets? KitFoxes? Novae? Summoner Gargoyles or even Executioner been played not to speak of the Whale? Now asking youself why s that so?

I don't need to. I can as well ask why most brawling-built IS mechs aren't used that much. The answer is, most people do not want or just can't figure out how to use these mechs. It has nothing to do with mechs themselves. All mechs you've mentioned are meant for roles, that general Clan player base can't embrace. On top of that, the lightest and the heaviest mechs from the pool are generally less reliable in paying off for their tonnage in a drop-deck. There are players, who still can advocate for these mechs and perform well themselves in Quick-Play.

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All or the large Number of Clan players do lack of ability? so whos biased there then? besides the you re just to bad of a player is just a cold one i know my average match score and alow myself to smirk for lame words like those

It's not that the general IS player base is any better. But I've been in numerous discussions about Clan balance, and in the end it all comes down to one's inability of effectively using anything aside from instant-hit lasers.

And yes, I'm a cold-blooded Closed-Beta veteran, and I will not hesitate to question one's player skill when his arguments are signify that. When someone's arguing for weapon being bad, he's expected to provide a mathematical justification, otherwise it's about one's inability to use that weapon. Flamers has awful base stats overall, MGs has pretty poor DPS, etc, but C-UACs and C-ERPPCs are great weapons, as long as one's using them intelligently and competently.

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have you played a clan mech ? every clan tech is smaller true but every Clan mech has a way smaller Payload to compensate this for example you can pack 5 IS heavy pulse lasers plus 3-4 heat sinks in a Wubbolt but you cannot fit 5 clan heavy pulse lasers in an Helbringer without any heatsonk be notet you may fit that in when you strip almost all armor off

Zero leg, zero leg, Zero Arm etc still with no heatsink. so
if you fire that5 heavy pulsers in the Thunderbolt yiu dont even run hot
you can fire two times bevore the mech is in red area in hot cards it goes shutdown

Wjhat does happen when you dare to fire these 5 heavy pulsers in the helbringer on frozen City? one of the coldest environments Guess?
right immediate shutdown and heavy internal damage
on moderate cards you just blow up so who is housing more firepower?

And here is all of your personal bias laid bare:
- You ignore the fact, that HBR is equipped with 325 XL, which none of TDR can match, thus is always faster. Having smaller profile and greater speed makes it more survivable.
- You also ignore the fact, that each Clan LPL is inherently better, than IS LPL, but comparing these loadouts as if they were the same thing. Clan LPL outranges IS LPL by ~65%, produces slightly higher DPS, while being 1 ton lighter. Thus difference between an IS mech with 5 LPLs and Clan mech with 5 LPL is incomparable.
- You also ignore the fact, that TDR would require an IS XL engine to match HBR loadout, which would make it extremely brittle. Trying to match HBR ST survivability with STD engine will leave only space for 2 LPL for TDR.
- A 3xLPL HBR vs a 3xLPL TDR will be roughly the same mech, but faster, smaller, more durable, having 2 heatsinks more and having weapons with higher reach.

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First that 20% agility Nerf we got all by the skilltree chhange but whilst the UIS got pampered quirks so the mech is more agile after the nerf as bevore the Clan mech just gets the Nerf in the Face and NOTHING else

Yes, because Clan Omnis deserved no buffs. They were outright better, and now it's debatable.

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True if a side torso is blewn out you get slower more than 20%( What is an additional thing) but a Clan player has no choice you can not change the engine

What happens when an IS standart engine gets the sid torso blewn out?
nothing ?
advantage for IS one could say following your line fo reasoning in the reverse no?

Following your line of reasoniong lagre IS reactors DO amplify those factors as well no?
AND the Player has the choice if and how far the trade Tonnage / Reactor shall go Clan Players Have NO Choice there
they cant even change Jump jets what are hardcoded as well as Structure or Armor
Three Choices a IS player has to gain flexibility and weight for the reactor
What has the Clan Player? NOTHING ? right.
the Clan Player has no choice. The IS player HAS that choice and that is the advantage for IS

You have a choice of Omnimechs and Battlemechs. Both has their own fixed properties. IS players has to own 2-3 times more mech-bays to reflect the glimpse of Omni-mech customization given by Omnipod system. One Omni-mech is enough to house the entire omni-pod structure available to it, so it can mount dozens of different combinations of weapons against any type of threats on different ranges. This is the choice you get. If it's not what you'd like to work with, then your advocation of Clan Omnimechs looks fundamentaly counter-productive.

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and +35% torso twisting speed isnt geting substantial?

double internal structure isnt geting substantial? are you kidding? 2X + 19 Ar with NO weight Cost is not substantial??

Clan Mechs get if at all puny quirk rates of 5-10% some seldom guests as the adder gets abit more
but absolutely NOWHERE you see acc / decc Bonusses of 70% like in some IS mechs i call that Roadrunner Style instand stop and instand fullspeed

It's substantial to the point where it makes IS and Clan mechs roughly identical in potential. It is substantial to the point where it compensates for inherent flaws of IS mechs. It is NOT substantial enough to make IS mechs outright stronger. IS mechs without these quirks would be, and always were in the past, a cannon fodder, compared to Omnimechs.

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Smaller profiles? ever sat in a Nova Ebon Jaguar Helbringer or an Summoner? you are a walking center Torso so to say

Same Problem with the Executioner some of them even get hit in the CT when geting shot from the side

Clan Mechs do not have gotten ridiculous Armor and structure quirks so in Relation to the IS mechs these are easier to kill
less AR + less Structure = less damage to kill
THat has nothing to do with skill just with geometry and basic calculation

Nova has the average profile for 50t mechs, with Trebuchets and Centurions having larger. Ebon Jaguar has quite lower profile, compared to most IS alternatives. In general, most Omnimechs has the physical profiles of IS mechs 5tons lighter. Hitboxes are separate cases, and even then IS mechs has hit-boxes, that are easier to recognize and focus on, while also usually running on lower rated engines.

While Clan mechs can in general be considered to be easier to kill, they also benefit from much higher damage output compared to any IS mechs, or are much more mobile. While it makes two tech-bases different, it doesn't makes IS mechs better, unless of course you're personally biased and choose to focus on isolated cases to prove the general trend.

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youre making an interesting assertion here de fato more than one

First i like my Highlanders and my heavy metal dearly, in fact i do play these on a regular basis and am able to perform quite well in those worst assault mech ever

708216164118641360 2015-12-24 00:32:05 471 C-Bills: 112,500 C-Bills
707653304359534412 2015-12-24 00:51:24 258 C-Bills: 75,000 C-Bills
708498442254276849 2015-12-24 12:04:21 432 C-Bills: 100,000 C-Bills

done in an highlander Heavy Metal i bought even bevore clan release an also bevore any ridiculous quirking desaster; any questions?

Yes. What is your PSR Tier? How many wins and loses you have in your Base Stats?

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double structure isnt tough ??? then i assume youre not biased to IS at all

vthat sentence i would consider as extreme fanboyism

It's just my experience. Double internal structure is not that impressive, unless you have extra stuff placed on top. Personally, I would prefer for every and each of IS mechs to have double internal structure, so that there will be a baseline from which IS and Clan mechs could be quirked equally afterwards.

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I tend to say you are a little false there

AS Clan you have to purchase these variants as well AND have to if you want to change something buy specific Omnipods at high prices ( and additional Nerfs on it in some cases) and only certain configurations de facto the IS with its larger number of variants is in general as flexible in the loadout question as clan
i d like to drive a Warhawk with three AK spaces but that is simply not possible
i could embed omnipods for 2 AK spaces but that would leave me with only one energy weap place so three weapons on a 85 ton mech ? Great!

You need to purchase them to Master your mechs, but after that you can sell the empty frames, leaving the omni-pods, which pays off roughly a third of funds spent. You basically can buy each variant one-by-one with one free Mechbay, using all the same omnipods and weapons. After that you can buy additional omni-pods from variants you've never ever owned, for maybe 1/20 of the mech's price.

IS players, on the other hand, has to buy mechs as a whole, running only specific loadouts fitting for them, and has to keep them as such in order to maintain their options. So I have dozens of IS mediums and heavies, but only one Stormcrow and one Timberwolf, which provide roughly the same weapon flexibility. So you can fiddle with your Warhawk all you want and try whatever the combination of weapons would fit it's fixed equipment, but I'm, on the other hand, can rather bite my own ***, but will not be able to do anything with my BLR-1G hardpoints, unless I'd spent another mechbay for another variant with another hardpoints.

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Yes Clan equipment needs less space but Clan loadout is coded very meager so that equals alot or do you know of an IS 80ton mech with not even 20 ton space in it ?

It depends. If I'd take a Dragon Slayer and try to replicate a capabilities of a Gargoyle, I'm left with two options. I can mount a STD 400 engine, which will give me whooping 1.5 tons of loadout. Or, I can mount an XL 400 engine, which will give me roughly the same tonnage as Gargoyle gets (not counting for engine DHS GAR has, because both would certainly can use those anyway), but losing a ST will kill me. So IS mechs can either be much, much slower or they can be much, much easier to kill, in order to match Omnimech loadout space.

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When you look at the DPS the greater Heat capacity of IS Heatsinks allows more salvos and even if you compare the lasers you will see the Clan laser does a little more damage, yes but needs to be focussed longer time to do so so the DPS is equal and in short range the cooler IS weaps do more DPS than hot Clan weapons with an inefficcient heat management heat sinks at almost single heat sink capacity and horrendous ghost heat

so i have to say your not teling any sense
please compare yourself
and then consider the Godmode-quirks some IS chassis do have attatched

It all somes down to IS and Clans performing differently. Again, nothing is showing the IS advantage in any degree. It's a question of what you're choosing to found your arguments on.

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To The LRM a stream of rockets is easier taken down by AMS than a pulk

first advantage
to fire a stream a Clan Mech has to expose itself more / longer time to prevent teh rockets flying against your covering structure while a pulk of rockets is fired in one shot - second advantage
The Clan Launchers have more heat and ghostheat, therefore the IS launcher occupies more space / tonnage but IS mechs have larger payload, so i call this an even - agreed?

Considering, that having half-weight launchers allows for more heatsinks to be installed, maybe.

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with Artemis FLS BOTH focus equally and weigh equally more so no spreading disadvantage large launchers fired simultanuously give evil ghost heat on clan side and more spread as well so in general i d say advantage on IS side

Firing Large launchers without Artemis is no IS disadvantage its pilot stupidity

Artemis upgrade only affects the accuracy when fired directly into a target you can see yourself. For me it's irrelevant.

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For the SSRM it IS a light advantage because it has to be locked as most IS Mechs are running at 130 + most with ECM thats a funny job and not so easy as you may think and far from an ultimate weapon as you try to put it

matter of factly these are more of an nasty kick weapon for slower mediums a light is over all hills bevore you got it target locked so
not that of an advantage

IS SSRM2 are not even good against any Lights, because there's no mech capable of holding enough of them to be nearly as brutal as clan SSRMs. All it takes to counter ECM is CAP, which is only 1 ton of weight. Concerning IS lights, there's Arctic Cheetahs, that outperform any IS light mech to date. They have small hitboxes, jump-jets, ECM, ~140 kph speed and powerful weapon array, all combined into an ultimate scout/striker mechs. Does IS has something like SSRM6s, that could execute these mechs with two volleys without bothering about aiming? Nope.

Edited by DivineEvil, 26 December 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[Russhuster]

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Your personal bias isn't that you want to win the match. It's that you want to ein an argument,

My bias may be to lay some reasonable way of balance on the table, iam so tired of the Quirk/Nerf Desaster
A balance that holds fun for both sides of the team

positve sides of the mechs .. well the recent Nerfing left little of positive sides to see anymore

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Now, when the balance is extremely close, your mechs can no longer carry your game for you, thus the frustration.

and again you bring the...... the youre too bad of a pilot jabbering *sigh* instead of a thesis or a line of reasoning

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It's kinda hard to not play along the quirks, since all IS mechs has them in one degree or another. Aside from few particular cases, like Highlanders, Vindicators and lower-case Light mechs, all IS mechs and their variants are viable when used for the role they're fit to. Same is true for Clan mechs.

true so your suggestion to play with fun builds or bulds that are not meta as Clan player is best taken as a ridiculous joke
as Clan mechs dont have a lorrie of structure quirks and Ar buffs so these mechs dont forgive mistakes in that large amount IS mechs easyly do

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You have a choice of Omnimechs and Battlemechs.

false - Clan has not this choice in every case in most cases Clan has NO choice
the IIC mechs have absolute the same mechbay requirements and even with the Omnimechs you need more than one CT when you want to lead a certain mechtype more than one time in your dropdeck
and besides youre really haggling about mechbays?? thats not really a problem no? what does one cost ?
ridiculous you can even win those in events
whilst you have to own more mech chassis with IS mechs a single Clan mech costs mor than two IS mechs of aequivalent tonnage, dame goes for the internals and weapons therefore when selling a clan chassis you DO loose alot more than selling a IS chassis still you need to own three different torsos - advantage for IS in the end no?
so that thesis is really obsolete

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Nova has the average profile for 50t mechs, with Trebuchets and Centurions having larger. Ebon Jaguar has quite lower profile, compared to most IS alternatives. In general, most Omnimechs has the physical profiles of IS mechs 5tons lighter. Hitboxes are separate cases, and even then IS mechs has hit-boxes, that are easier to recognize and focus on, while also usually running on lower rated engines.

Thats blunt nonsense, The fewer Clan mechs are as easy or hard to recognize than the IS mechs and as tehre are way fewer Clan mechs its - and advantage for Is buit that oi wont really count its an worthless thesis of yours
Each player neeeds to know the hitboxed of his prey.-- and you know that very well

the ebon Jaguar is mainly consisting of an giant CT same with the Hellbringer

i may fiddle with the Warhawk hardpoints all i want i wont be able to do it as there is not much divergence,.. the shoulders are all the same and the arms offer not much variety so in the end the IS has de facto more options than a warhawk pilo

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Double internal structure is not that impressive, unless you have extra stuff placed on top. Personally, I would prefer for every and each of IS mechs to have double internal structure, so that there will be a baseline from which IS and Clan

Not biased at all i see i see... obiviously

May i recommend Double armor as well sir? and we have an nice extra placed on top some candid 65% agility quirks and ofc a 50% heat generation quirk and of course the frosted halfweight std reactor cream

Did you taste the Coolant liquid yet? - i see -

Ah you ve chosen the godmode Button Menu - Excellent choice Sir

Need i say more?

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It depends. If I'd take a Dragon Slayer and try to replicate a capabilities of a Gargoyle, I'm left with two options. I can mount a STD 400 engine, which will give me whooping 1.5 tons of loadout. Or, I can mount an XL 400 engine, which will give me roughly the same tonnage as Gargoyle gets (not counting for engine DHS GAR has, because both would certainly can use those anyway), but losing a ST will kill me. So IS mechs can either be much, much slower or they can be much, much easier to kill, in order to match Omnimech loadout space.

That XL will give you more loadout space than clan but still i would say Yes Advantage fir Clan because the Reactor is the ONLY real advatage

IF the Clan Player had a choice - BUT THE CLAN PLAYER HAS NO CHOICE

as long there just the IS has the choice it is a heavy disadvantage being narrowed to that one reactor PLUS not being able to switch neither Armor nor Structure PLUS having much useless equipent built in if needed or not but taking away dearly needed tonnage

Having the freedom to customize my mech with the reactor i wish the interior i want and the armor i do need fitting jumpjets when i llike or leaving there when i do not need these

Is the greatest advantage i can think of

just out of this reasons the clan XL reactor was necessary what would you say if ALL is mechs had an fix
Having the choice on one side and having absolute NO choice on the other,.. so where do you see the advantage`?

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t all somes down to IS and Clans performing differently. Again, nothing is showing the IS advantage in any degree. It's a question of what you're choosing to found your arguments on.

Well being able to shoot 3-4 times bevore the heat forces me to seaze fire or being able to shoot one single tiime bevore i have to seize fire can be considered as different performance true buit it is a huge advantage at the same time
we wont ignore that wont we?

Most fighting in rushes and even in CW where more range duels are done is dependent on the heat and a mech that can put out more salvos is in Advantage especially when the quirks on that chassis give it the range advantage as well and i havnt seen many competetive IS teams not using the meta

Well when you really need or want a weapon that can tale out a ACH in one or two volleys without the need of aiming i want to answer you in your own words

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You're likely used to being able to easily win over the IS players simply because the mechs you've been running were outright better. Now, when the balance is extremely close, your mechs can no longer carry your game for you, thus the frustration.

Just exchange IS and Clan

The ACH is the first Clan mech that can cope with the IS lights and you wish for the godmode Cannon?
<p>Now iam dissappointed</p>

Edited by Russhuster, 26 December 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Rexxxxxxxxx]

Currently the main reason for the Imbalance is the New/inexperienced players go to the cheaper/IS side.
If new players joined the clan side more often, then we would have some balance.

IS is cheaper for many reasons, but the biggest reason is you can strip the engine before selling an IS mech. This is important because new players only have 4 mech bays. To fully unlock a mech for CW, you will end up buying and selling 2 of the 3 variants needed to unlock them.

If PGI want's balance then they need to make both sides cost the same to unlock mechs. Then new players will flood both sides.

[Russhuster]

agreed could be one step in the right direction, or even IF Clan equipment would be more expensive ( despite being nerfed to crap) at least there should be free choice of Structure/Armor/ and interior like jump jets

[Jack Spade Ward]

@ Divine Evil

Well, you obviously are a IS fan boy, as such, all of your comments are ignored...

Start doing CW yesterday as IS and the result was... AMAZING!!!! 2500 dmg 16 kills
Only in a very good day you could do that on the clan side... Thunderbolts FTW

[DivineEvil]

Russhuster, on 26 December 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Another round of uneducated, incoherent, one-sided rambling about negative features of Clan mech, ignoring the positives.

So let us make it short and quick.

There's only two outcomes I see from all the crap you've vomited over this thread.

Case #1: You want Clan mechs to work exactly as IS mechs:
- No omni-pod system (because it's useless)
- No clan weapons (because they're total crap)
- No side-torso survival with unlocked engines (because 20% power penalty is crap and there's no choice)
- No clan upgrades (coz they suck and there's also no choice)
- No clan undersized mech profiles (coz quirks are better and totally god-mode)
Basically make Clan mechs identical to IS mechs in all aspects but visual style.
Question: Why do you play as Clan if you hate everything their mechs has to offer?

Case #2: You want Clan mechs to have all the benefits:
- Omnipod system and no fixed equipment.
- Better clan weapons with IS convenience level.
- Side-torso survival with swappable engines.
- Dynamic swappable upgrades.
- Undersized mech profiles.
- Quirks of identical magnitude.
Basically taking all positive factors of both tech-bases and attaching them to Clan mechs.
Question: Are you an idiot?

So which is it?

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IS is cheaper for many reasons, but the biggest reason is you can strip the engine before selling an IS mech. This is important because new players only have 4 mech bays. To fully unlock a mech for CW, you will end up buying and selling 2 of the 3 variants needed to unlock them.

Same is true for OmniMech in every way. Exchange the Engine for Omnipods in every case, and you will get the same result. In case of IS mechs, you'd end up with 4 different mechs or variants, where you can swap engines. In case of Clan mechs, you'd end up with 4 different mechs or frames, where you can swap omni-pods. Where is the problem?

Spadejack, on 26 December 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

@ Divine Evil Well, you obviously are a IS fan boy, as such, all of your comments are ignored... Start doing CW yesterday as IS and the result was... AMAZING!!!! 2500 dmg 16 kills Only in a very good day you could do that on the clan side... Thunderbolts FTW

Good. I don't need another half-baked rambling without valid arguments. You had nothing to say to begin with.

Edited by DivineEvil, 26 December 2015 - 05:37 PM.

[Tilakkam]

Why my quickdraw, wolverine,blackjack and thunderbolt (even old trial stalker with his 60 lrm) on basic far more better then nearly all clan mech on master with modules? Why clans superior tech have less range, more heat, more time to kill and other negative stats than medieval IS tech?

Edited by Tilakkam, 26 December 2015 - 10:53 PM.

[Russhuster]

@Tilakkam ( edit, i beg your pardon for the typo)
Because this is MWO and PGI does not want a Mechwarrior game but some kind of Mecha robot shooters where the IS Robots have the advantage

@ DivineEvil

Case1
Indeed...
As i stated at that time,..
Clan was implemented way too early without a at least hallfway inteligently thought of idea of Balance
(the 10 vs 12 wont ever happen Paul did say that in the Begining )
out of pure money grabbing greed

And as far as i do see that it hasnt changed abit its a quirking and nerfing desaster but i refuse to even use the word balance in comparism to that

so Case1
BUT with one addition

NO CLAN MECHS AND CLAN TECH AT ALL; BECAUSE WHAT BECAME OUT OF CLAN IS A SPITTING IMAGE OF ITSELF

Edited by Russhuster, 27 December 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[Der Hesse]

Guess what?
If i want a cheap match i go and drop against clan wolf. Even in a pug it´s an easy win most of the times.
If i want a challenge i go to the clan jadefalcon front where pug/pug matches are hard and won by the clan most of the time. If i get a premade....well, im done.

That is all i want to say to those clan wolf guys that really started to cry as soon as the first quirks were introduced and clans were still op for months to go.

If you know how to play this game and have seen enough matches you should know that we have the best balance since clan introduction atm.

[Russhuster]

yah whateveryou say, is Fanboy

then why are in other threads even players from the green chicken farm or ghost bears telling the same?
when everyting is so fine and in pink fluffy balance why there are the numbers of clan players geting fewer and fewer? - the Cat has eaten them away`?

its not the first time Clan or yes wilf players have notet and pit out the defiencys
I do play MWO since bevore clan launch,.. this discussion was happening after TUK 1 as well
there the ignorant, notknowinganythingand measypilot - Clanners sayed if that continues and no halfway balance is achieved Clan numbers will decrease
A shitstorm broke loose - all was nonsense and wasnt true at all
Now
The numbers HAVE decreased havnt they?

Just you wait for TUK 3 maybe that time not even the mercs will be persuaded to play clan side
look what CW has become offside any event
and answer yourself

Edited by Russhuster, 27 December 2015 - 05:24 AM.

[Roland09]

Russhuster, on 27 December 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

there the ignorant, notknowinganythingand measypilot - Clanners sayed if that continues and no halfway balance is achieved Clan numbers will decrease
A shitstorm broke loose - all was nonsense and wasnt true at all

I cannot make heads nor tails of this sentence (I use the term loosely). Maybe wiping the froth from your screen would help you make coherent arguments.

So, you mean the not-knowing-anything Clanners said something, and it was utter BS? Yes, I can relate to that.

Edited by Roland09, 27 December 2015 - 05:58 AM.