120 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

And remember the ideal implementation for reflective and reactive armors is that they mitigate damage from energy and ballistics respectively, but have decreased protection when faced with the weapon type they do not mitigate.

Reflective armor could block half your energy damage, but if it were that powerful, it would need to be 50% weaker to ballistic weapons, and the same goes for reactive armor. Im not saying 50% is a good number to use, but this should be kept in mind. This kind of balance is often about giving and taking. Sacrifice this for more of that. etc.


Also whats this talk about LRMs being good?

They aren't.

Do the mechwarrior 4 implementation where you must have line of sight to lock, but they are fire and forget and have no minimum range, and do away with this shared targeting nonsense. (We have no info/role warfare, so lrms have been suffering since their implementation, because they rely on a system which does not exist and may never exist in game). No other weapon in the game relies on your team mates bringing barely armed narc lights just so you can boat a marginally effective, easily avoided weapon that really only annoys your opponents.

[CDLord HHGD]

Maybe (and this is a BIG maybe)
Reflective module (anti-energy)
Ablative module (anti-ballistic)
Null-Sig module (anti-missile (no missile locks))

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

pbiggz, on 28 December 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

And remember the ideal implementation for reflective and reactive armors is that they mitigate damage from energy and ballistics respectively, but have decreased protection when faced with the weapon type they do not mitigate.

Reflective armor could block half your energy damage, but if it were that powerful, it would need to be 50% weaker to ballistic weapons, and the same goes for reactive armor. Im not saying 50% is a good number to use, but this should be kept in mind. This kind of balance is often about giving and taking. Sacrifice this for more of that. etc.

So since ecm is anti-missle when you do you suggest we have users take more damage from ballistics and lasers while using it?

cdlord, on 28 December 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

Reflective module (anti-energy)
Ablative module (anti-ballistic)

We've needed something like this for a long time if PGI insists on keeping the missle weapon immunity module known as ecm around.

But then again, they're not actually interested in true balance, they just want to keep the point and click kiddies happy.

[pbiggz]

The Atlas Overlord, on 28 December 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

So since ecm is anti-missle when you do you suggest we have users take more damage from ballistics and lasers while using it?



We've needed something like this for a long time if PGI insists on keeping the missle weapon immunity module known as ecm around.

But then again, they're not actually interested in true balance, they just want to keep the point and click kiddies happy.

ECM is a joke. Even post nerf it doesn't do what its supposed to do. Do your homework instead of posting this drek.

No more modules. Modules suck. We want real equipment, not psuedo-equipment moneysink trash.

[Scratx]

Khobai, on 28 December 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

-50% damage from energy weapons is absolutely a hard counter.

im sorry but that would just be stupid to add to the game.

Re-balanced versions would be fine. IMO something like ~33% damage reduction from energy for reflective and the same for reactive against missiles _and_ ballistics.

I'm not arguing that the original TT versions were perfectly balanced (especially after taking a look at reactive and noting that it does actually seem to not affect ballistics, which would suck).

Still, even if armors are added and reactive is left to not affect ballistics, it's not the end of the world... it's a choice. Do I optimize my armor against particular weapons while sacrificing protection/weight against other weapons?

Key is making sure none of the options are so good they're a must have.

[Khobai]

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Key is making sure none of the options are so good they're a must have.

Theres more than that one problem.

You also risk turning the game into a rock paper scissors where the outcome of the game is predetermined by what weapons/equipment you and your opponent pick rather than who has the most skill. Thats not the direction the game should go in. The game should go in the OPPOSITE direction, defensive tech should only be as good as the skill of the player using it. Defensive tech should increase the skill curve not lower it.


Plus theres two other HUGE flaws that youve failed to address:

1) clan omnimechs have locked armor types and cant benefit from reflective/reactive/hardened armor. Thats a HUGE disadvantage and makes omnimechs outright inferior to battlemechs. And unlocking equipment on clan mechs is a very slippery slope.

2) clan mechs are heavily biased towards using energy weapons because their ballistic and missile weapons are significantly weaker options due to their damage spread and the lack of podspace on most clan mechs. Which makes reflective armor the obvious and ONLY choice for IS mechs.


I feel very strongly that any defensive techs that are added should NOT be entirely passive. Proper defensive techs should require skill/intelligence on the part of the player. Again, I use the example of Ghost ECM mode which would be a third mode for ECM that allows ECM to spoof fake sensor signatures. Thats the kindve defensive tech the game needs because it requires actual brainpower to use and isnt completely derpdaderp like reflective armor would be.

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Re-balanced versions would be fine. IMO something like ~33% damage reduction from energy for reflective and the same for reactive against missiles _and_ ballistics.

No they wouldnt be fine. Even 33% is enough to make clans lose before the game has even started. Youre slashing the damage of their only real weapon option by a full 1/3rd. Not to mention youre doing it in a passive brainless way that doesnt require any skill to use whatsoever. Awful.

Crap like this will lower the skill cap of the game to potato.

Edited by Khobai, 28 December 2015 - 04:58 PM.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 28 December 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Thats not the problem.

The problem is you risk turning the game into ******** rock paper scissors thats predetermined by what equipment you pick rather than your skill as a player.

Again, my ideal implementation of defensive tech wouldn't do anything like that. Offering players choices is far different than having a cyclical collection of hard-counters to everything. This game has plenty of mechs, but not alot of equipment or weapons, therefore we really have little choice, as the only way to stay current is using the best mech for the best build. You can be a special snowflake and take a non-meta build, and i often do, but you know that even if you are skilled, you are giving something up that someone else may be more than willing to capitalize on. CHOICE makes this effect the game far less, and it gives people more options when experimenting, and defining your personal play style.

In MWO, ECM is an example of a hard counter. ECM is bad.

A good designer always goes for soft counters. Reflective armor might decrease energy damage at the cost of increased damage taken from non-energy weapons, but a good designer also gets other elements in there. A good example is the weight of the armor. Is it lighter or heavier than standard armor? Does it take up more critical slots? What about things like heat dissipation and cap? Could the armor you mount effect those? Could it effect your radar signature, making you more or less noticeable or easy to target? Could it make you more or less prominent on thermal vision?

These are systems. It is the job of the designer to ensure that each element of the game interacts with systems in very controlled and deliberate ways. Emergent systems aside, when you're talking about raw balance, you need to demonstrate that kind of careful control.

Paul is not a good designer.

I still think defensive tech is something we should have in game. I still think the IS should have more of its weapons as well, and I don't think that we will ever reach any real balance without those elements, especially if they keep trying to balance using ham-fisted weapon/structure quirks and sledge hammer nerfs on weapons that behave slightly differently than intended.

Edited by pbiggz, 28 December 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[Galenit]

pbiggz, on 28 December 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

ECM is a joke. Even post nerf it doesn't do what its supposed to do. Do your homework instead of posting this drek.

No more modules. Modules suck. We want real equipment, not psuedo-equipment moneysink trash.

More diversity, more chooses, more options, mwo is allready dumbed down.
Thinking mans shooter anyone?

[Khobai]

Quote

Paul is not a good designer.

Which just further reinforces the idea that defensive techs shouldnt be added because they require good design yet Paul would be the one designing them. lol.

Quote

More diversity, more chooses, more options, mwo is allready dumbed down.
Thinking mans shooter anyone?

And Im all for more choices.

But like I said they need to be INTELLIGENT choices. Not dumbed down passive **** like reflective armor.

We need items that increase the skill curve not lower it. In order to making it a thinking mans shooter again.


Again, tech like reflective armor is just a passive brainless equipment. Theres no real benefit to it being in the game. It requires no thought or intelligence to use. It just lowers the skill cap and dumbs down the game.

Whereas tech like the Blue Shield Particle Field Dampener would be much better. Blue Shield would have an on/off toggle. When its on it would reduce PPC damage at the cost of significant heat generation. Also you would only be able to keep it on for short periods of time before the field becomes unstable (and it would have a timer before it can be used again). That kindve tech requires actual thought to use.

The game needs more equipment that actually makes you "think" about when to use it.

Edited by Khobai, 28 December 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 28 December 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

Which just further reinforces the idea that defensive techs shouldnt be added because they require good design yet Paul would be the one designing them. lol.




And Im all for more choices.

But like I said they need to be INTELLIGENT choices. Not dumbed down passive **** like reflective armor.

We need items that increase the skill curve not lower it. In order to making it a thinking mans shooter again.


Again, tech like reflective armor is just a passive brainless equipment. Theres no real benefit to it being in the game. It requires no thought or intelligence to use. It just lowers the skill cap and dumbs down the game.

Whereas tech like the Blue Shield Particle Field Dampener would be much better. Blue Shield would have an on/off toggle. When its on it would reduce PPC damage at the cost of significant heat generation. Also you would only be able to keep it on for short periods of time before the field becomes unstable (and it would have a timer before it can be used again). That kindve tech requires actual thought to use.

The game needs more equipment that actually makes you "think" about when to use it.

What new weapons and equipment would you like to see then?

I made a thread about this a few weeks back and people had a cow, said something like "we cant have new weapons because quirks" and i think i lost memories from my childhood after that.

[Khobai]

Quote

What new weapons and equipment would you like to see then?

i personally dont think we need that many new weapons. we have a good number of weapons already theyre just extremely poorly balanced. the only new weapons I feel we absolutely need are more medium range missile options in the form of MRMs for IS and ATMs for Clans.

as for equipment, I think ive been pretty clear about what I think should be added, defensive tech that requires skill and intelligence to use and isnt just passive and brainless. in particular I feel the sensor warfare/electronic warfare/scouting aspect of the game could be massively improved.

I also always liked the idea of a -X% damage penalty to ALL weapons unless you have a target lock on your target. That would make sensors actually matter which in turn makes sensor warfare/electronic warfare/scouting matter.

Edited by Khobai, 28 December 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[Kraftwerkedup]

If you dont know what your enemy is bringing...

Youre just gambling.

Eventually youll figure out its better to not gamble, and just take FF. Rendering adding the other armors, pointless.

[RagingOyster]

Belphegore, on 26 December 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

We asked PGI for Reactive and Reflective armour since closed beta, never happened

Maybe they were trying to balance the basics before adding more? What a thought.

[Khobai]

yeah i mean its a bit ridiculous to say the game needs reflective armor when lasers arnt even balanced....

[C I L L I P U D D I]

Let's add more Lore crap that will need balancing, so the trolls will have more ammo to complain about. Sorry but the game doesn't need more items, pilots just need to get better at the game.

[DiGCliff]

But I know it might just be me but I need more choices to change my mech. I am going to be honest I love this game I wouldn't be playing if if I didn't but the mech lab is stale it needs some help something to spice up are customization choices to make things more interesting and less "cut and dry"

[Scratx]

Cillipuddi, on 28 December 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

Let's add more Lore crap that will need balancing, so the trolls will have more ammo to complain about. Sorry but the game doesn't need more items, pilots just need to get better at the game.

Let's just give everyone Timberwolves with the same exact Laser Vomit build and take everything else away. Everybody bringing the same thing means only skill matters! Git Gud or Get Rekt!

/sarcasm

Sorry, but this game needs to have new things added over time to keep it fresh, be it new maps, game modes, mechs, equipment, weapons, etc. Games that get stale die.

[kanamisan]

a few things to note, extra armor modules I feel would be nice and useful. for half the effective hp per ton of standard, being able to add 10 or so hp over the normal armor for crit slots would be nice. would also give crits slots more use then ff/endo and xl sinks.

As far as lams is conserned. I feel like it would work better if it was handled like as follows. first ams needs to be buffed in efficiency, 200 meter range and faster missile kill speed so it can act as a overwatch type support module. Lams would then have the current effective range of ams, but, only will target unguided or threats to the owner mech, only. with that, the effective range can be reduced to 90 meters then. lams would also need to weight 1 ton. or abouts.
This then gives the player the choice of taking normal ams for squad defence, or lams for personal defence saving only a small amount of weight, if that, for taking one or two lams, but for boating ams, you would gain weight efficiency over all.

but over all, I do think some defencive weapons could be nice. although I am sure there are other defencive tools available as well. thermal smoke to provide cover and new forms of stealth, or chaff to disrupt the magnetic field of the engine. so your harder to detect at range, and of course to help break locks. These are defencive options which would be helpful for smaller mechs as well and allow for more mobility to be used.

[TheArisen]

Khobai, on 28 December 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

yeah i mean its a bit ridiculous to say the game needs reflective armor when lasers arnt even balanced....

As I've stated before, it doesn't have to be either reflective or reactive. Both of which could be implemented in a watered down state. No sane person is advocating a 50% counter. There are other less controversial options.

Modular armor is an extremely easy and low risk option. Forget changing mech models for it. Just have it shown in the damage readout when you lock on a mech, it could be blue or something to show that section has extra armor. Simple.

Armored components would need some light buffs to justify the weight but it would be just as simple, have the internals be blue on the damage readout if armored components have been equipped.

Hardened armor is another easy one because you're sacrificing mobility for more armor. No single weapon type would be getting hard countered.

I agree weapons need to have better balance but that's a never-ending project tbh. So, what about the other options? There were more than just 2.

[TheArisen]

cdlord, on 28 December 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

Maybe (and this is a BIG maybe)
Reflective module (anti-energy)
Ablative module (anti-ballistic)
Null-Sig module (anti-missile (no missile locks))

I'd rather these techs not get relegated to modules. Weight & slots are important balancing tools.