447 replies to this topic

[Kinski Orlawisch]

You are shure that balance means that premades in Clanmechs vs puggs in IS mechs have to bee of equal strength? Then go on.

We are mercs. We don t realy care. We can Play whatever we want. Is that balance? Shure not.

The last CW Event was that Clans shoot against in Football from the 11m line....and then defendet against someone Shooting from the 50m line......

Attack is (exception Boreal vault) for the attacker in Invasion mode easier and for the Defender in Counterattack much easier.

The Clans had the premades AND an Advantage from the Setup.

Point. From this you can t evaluate Balance!

[Der Hesse]

Kotev, on 07 January 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Plain and simple IS is far better then Clan. I have played both recently and when taken into account quirks for less heat, laser duration and structure buffs for my perspective is like IS are twice better in everything. This needs to be corected with buffs to Clan or IS nerfs and same tonnage dropdeck.

I did quite some work to explain the situation with numbers. So why don´t you at least try to substantiate your opinion?
Otherwise it indeed just sounds like whining from someone who lacks skill.

Ace Selin, on 07 January 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Playing as Clans right now i think the balance is really good at the moment.

People just love to whine when they dont have easy mode crutches anymore.


I do think tonnage on both sides can be the same now .

This!

It´s obvious that it´s mostly clan wolf or former clan wolf players that think Clan is underpowered. Was the same since the first nerfs for Clans and first buffs for IS. Guess there´s a relation with the fact that i go Clan Wolf front when i want easy wins. ^^
There are many Clan JF and GB that say tech balance is ok atm. And well.....SJ are silent. ^^

[Rushin Roulette]

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 07 January 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Clan is overnerfed.
Clan meds, erll and gauss must be buffed.
Timber and crow nerfs removed

Yes and no to that.
Clans have been overnerfed, but not by far. They can still easily dominate teh IS mechs if they stick to their strengths and dont insist on being gods of short range brawling with the exception of a few Clan mechs such as the ACH
Clan Meds deffinitely do not need any Buffs, they are really strong the way they are now, but should not be nerfed either
Clan ERLL do need a buff, but only a slight one. Shorten the beam duration by 10-15% from what it is now could be the answer. it still has a longer beam duratuion that the IS variant, but not the press the button and go make a coffee before the beam finishes length it is now
Clan Gauss needs a buff? Deffinitely not. Only if the IS Gauss gets the same buff as well to keep them on an even footing
Timber and Crow nerfs removed? Why? They are still one of the strongest clan mechs in the lineup (The Crow is still on an unreachable level for any other Clan Mediums)
Id also suggest a slight nerf to the Clan SSRM4 and 6 with either 10% longer cooldown or a slight increase in heat (maybe 5%) as the IS still has no light hunter capable of that much firepower (Even an old A1 Streakcat which is the IS mech with the most Missile hardpoints available can bring as much firepower as a clan streak light (6*SSRM2 is as much as 2*CSSRM6 which can easily be fitted on a Kittfox with more than enough ammo plus a healthy amount of space/tonage left for support equipment or other weapons KFX-C - Crap build but that was just to make a point)

[Kotev]

Der Hesse, on 08 January 2016 - 01:55 AM, said:

I did quite some work to explain the situation with numbers. So why don´t you at least try to substantiate your opinion?
Otherwise it indeed just sounds like whining from someone who lacks skill.

My frend recently told me that they taught them at school how to calculate big bang with numbers and i told to myself "maybe?!?". Don`t want to get into arguments but my point is that if you want to know something you have to expirience it, for example i can alpha fire 5 lrg pulse lasers on my Banshee and still have some heat to spare, don`t to mention almost instant burn time. There isn`t Clan mech to do that. Other exampe is to fire 3 cl. lrg puls into open torso on IS medium/heavy and not die. These are the issues i raise for the overal balance that needs to be more or less the same for fairplay.

Edited by Kotev, 08 January 2016 - 05:48 AM.

[Inkarnus]

I find it always  hilarious if people say its the Mercs or its X other then the mechs. In this forum part it should ALL be related to mechs and the HIGHEST player skill as measure for balance. But what i know from the IS there are much less good players around and much less guys that have not there head up there arse about clans(aka payback of a long long forgotten time where clan were released in wave 1 and balance was really effed up).

All weapon quirks need to be removed period.
They just totally **** up balance and just lead to FOTOM mechs that are stronger by definition even in IS intern balance.
Some structure quirks need a total rework like the blackjacks and atlas.
Clan need structure quirks too or better heatmanagement to deal with the higher structure of IS mechs.

I mean look at the balance atm in a Tboldt 5ss atm a  med pulse laser is basically superior in nearly every way to a clan c med pulse laser
Fully kittet out Tboldt has:
1,73 Damage/Heat 308m range 616m Maxrange 0,32 less cooldown and burntime of 0,6.
vs Clan full moduled
1,33 Damage/Heat 363m range 617m Maxrange  2,67 cooldown and burntime of 0,8

add to this equation that DHS with 1.5 heatcap(1,4 before) are far superior and have more heat tresh then clan 1,1 heatcap (old value 1,4). which basically translate you dont have the heatcap to
even remotly compete with IS mechs especially if they are overquirked.
For example i have no problem fitting 21 DHS into my tboldt thats additional 31,5 Heatcap
with 2x 37,5
vs
on clan i can put into a 65t ebon 26 DHS at additional 28,6 Heatcap (old 36,4)
with 2x 34,32 Heatcap (old 43,68)
(basically unrealistic values since most builds have far less then 26dhs on clan side)

So now you have the Problem on Clan side of the C Medpulse laser:
Its less heat efficent, less efficent overall (higher burntime=less time on target component),higher cooldown and too hot for what it does in comparison to a Tboldt.

So yeah in that comparison alone the Tboldt has all the aces in its hand
STD engine, more structure, more heat efficent, more efficent(lowerburntime), with a faster cooldown even to the degree nearly matching the C Mpl in Damage/S with a higher heatcap and heatefficency.

IS is balanced obviously not, to all the armchair admirals.

TL DR
Clans Heat to Damage ratio is terrible and IS heat to damage ratio with quirks of any kind is  excelent and without still good and superior.
So all weapons quirks like refirerate, range, burntime and heat efficency need to go especially since they create more problems then they solve. Making to balance all the IS Chassis a huge
undertaking and creating an unnecessary micro cosmos on IS side that just will grow to be
a jungle of unbalance even more with time. Additional it will eat up resources needed badly in other parts of development.
Structure quirks thou are simplistic and a good way to balance BAD chassis like a Catapult.
But need to be applyed carefully and not to dominant meta chassis.

Edited by Inkarnus, 08 January 2016 - 07:41 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Marc von der Heide, on 07 January 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

You are shure that balance means that premades in Clanmechs vs puggs in IS mechs have to bee of equal strength? Then go on.

Wait what? I see pug Clan teams beat pug IS teams all the time. A Clan premade usually decimates IS pugs in my experience.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

I don t even remember when a 12 men BO Team lost last time. That has nothing to say about balance.
Our -BO- IS dropdeck is about 25% stronger than our Clan dropdeck. Hmmmm I Need a time Loop so our Team can fight themself to see wich of our dropdeck is realy stronger..

[Kotev]

Marc von der Heide, on 08 January 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

I don t even remember when a 12 men BO Team lost last time. That has nothing to say about balance.
Our -BO- IS dropdeck is about 25% stronger than our Clan dropdeck. Hmmmm I Need a time Loop so our Team can fight themself to see wich of our dropdeck is realy stronger..

Dude i have heard of you, only great things. I heard you are quite good at stomping pugs that plays only trial mechs. So you dont need time machine to see that becouse everyone allready knows that. Isn`t life much more simple then go against good organised teams, i know that is your MOTO.

[Gas Guzzler]

Marc von der Heide, on 08 January 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

I don t even remember when a 12 men BO Team lost last time. That has nothing to say about balance.
Our -BO- IS dropdeck is about 25% stronger than our Clan dropdeck. Hmmmm I Need a time Loop so our Team can fight themself to see wich of our dropdeck is realy stronger..

Given that we will never have identical teams play each other with a legitimate sample size (say 50 matches) this balance discussion is just BS and will never end.

Frankly, it is good enough. In my opinion, IS has some outliers in some cases, such as the HUGE structure quirks on the Blackjack that should be toned down, but honestly, playing as Clan has not seemed any harder after playing good teams and bad teams from both sides, seriously its good enough.

[Kael Posavatz]

There have been quite a few Clans-only players who have spent much of the last year advocating for improvements to the Inner Sphere. Many of the changes that have come about are things they have long advocated. Others are things they spent hours testing in the public test servers. There were quite a few posts in the weeks following the re-quirkening went live that had something to the effect that the game was the most balanced it had ever been.

Not that it was perfect, or that there wasn't room for improvement, but that it was far better than it had been.

Then two things happened. Steam Launch and the Origin mechs were released.

A lot of Clan players have been waiting for the IIC mechs for a long time. In the wake of the Requirkening with the hit to engine related mechanics for losing a side torso, the anticipation only grew stronger. But instead of quirks linked to an engine the way they are linked to OmniPods, we found utterly unquirked mechs. A standard engine protects them against degradation if they lose a side torso, yes, but if they do, they lack the robustness or sufficiently superior firepower to engage an IS mech of comparable tonnage. Many of us sighed, considered it our version of the IS XL engine (possible, but usually not worth the effort), and moved on.

Then on 17 December Russ announced the changes to drop deck tonnages. The Clans would have 250 tons available for the first time, while the IS would have a whopping 265. Ostensibly this would help all those new players coming in from Steam to assemble drop decks out of Trial mechs.

Then everyone at PGI went on vacation.

The problem was two-fold.

1) The IS had 8 trial mechs that were customized based on community feedback and what people were actually running. The Clans had only 4. The other 4 were stock loadouts that, while not as bad as the trial Hellbringer was, left a great deal to be desired.

2) The tonnage changes allowed an new IS player to actually drop 4 champion mechs. The best a Clan player could do was 2. The combination of Arctic Cheetah, Stormcrow, and Timberwolf left insufficient tonnage to take the Executioner (the lighter weight of the two trial assault mechs available to the Clans).

I had one person who had never played MWO come into our TeamSpeak. He had heard about the game from a friend and decided to give it a try. Without ever dropping he looked at this imbalance and asked me "Are the Clans seriously that much better, or does this company hate half their players?" At that point I had no good answer for him. We tried to protect these guys. Kerensky's honest truth we did. We pulled them into 12-man teams and spread them out as much as we could so they didn't drag everyone down. And we watched our teams get utterly hammered buy IS pugs who knew how to take advantage of the tonnage disparity--not the new players from Steam, though they were bad enough, I'm talking about everyone else--and were quick to identify, and target, the new players. When we ran into organized teams it was even worse. I can't even really blame them for taking advantage of the opportunity that was offered, but it was about as brutal an introduction to a game as there could be. I have not seen the player who asked me that question since the new year. I hope he found his way to an IS unit where he is happy. He seemed like a good guy.

And, frankly, bringing in new blood is how PGI makes money.

It took almost two weeks for PGI to give those new players enough tonnage to drop 3 Clan champion mechs.

It took twenty days to give us the tonnage that brand new players can drop 4.

A lot changed in those 20 days. The holidays gave a lot of people the free time to try a new game, while for others they sucked up what free time was available. Some Steam players who came onto our TeamSpeak stuck around. Others have left. I hope many of them saw the potential of MWO and decided to find another unit. But I cannot help but wonder how many of those people looked at what had been made available to the new players in one faction, then looked at what had been made available to the new players in the other faction, dropped a few matches...then left in search of a different game.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 January 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

What's funny?

its easier for us IS players

[Der Hesse]

Kotev, on 08 January 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

My frend recently told me that they taught them at school how to calculate big bang with numbers and i told to myself "maybe?!?". Don`t want to get into arguments but my point is that if you want to know something you have to expirience it, for example i can alpha fire 5 lrg pulse lasers on my Banshee and still have some heat to spare, don`t to mention almost instant burn time. There isn`t Clan mech to do that. Other exampe is to fire 3 cl. lrg puls into open torso on IS medium/heavy and not die. These are the issues i raise for the overal balance that needs to be more or less the same for fairplay.

*rofl*

"How do numbers make you feel? What does a plus sign smell like? Is the number 7 odd, or just different?"

Edited by Der Hesse, 08 January 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Kotev]

Der Hesse, on 08 January 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

*rofl*

"How do numbers make you feel? What does a plus sign smell like? Is the number 7 odd, or just different?"

I love how your mind works. But still is too complex for me to understand that quantum physics stuff you are explaining.

[Jon Gotham]

Roland09, on 07 January 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

I'm interested in that Raven 4x ERLL build. Care to share it please?

Lol typo daemon is out:) 2 ERLL lol, 2 mg and 2 JJ. Has -30% duration and +30% range I believe on the ERLL. Should have typed Raven 4x, ERLL.....

[Jack Spade Ward]

kamiko kross, on 08 January 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Lol typo daemon is out:) 2 ERLL lol, 2 mg and 2 JJ. Has -30% duration and +30% range I believe on the ERLL. Should have typed Raven 4x, ERLL.....

Damn good build... which clan mech is that? That is so OP...

Wait... that is IS... so i guess... not OP then?

FULL IRONY MODE ON

[Darth Hotz]

Yesterday I had a one on one situation with a well known player. He was in a SPL Cheetah and I sat in my 2LPL 6MG Arrow. He danced around me and wanted the kill so bad that he did not care that I started opening his centertorso. Then he overheated and shut down right in front of me. The 6MGs did their thing and he died.

Then he started complaining about "fragging" PGI and the "fragged" overquirked Blackjacks.

This is exactly what I mean. Some clan players are just so spoiled by their golden age of overpower that they have forgotten what life is without easymode and blame their mistakes on IS quirks.

[B0oN]

Balance is good, certainly better than before so I hardly can understand the need for all the lamenting from Clan side .
Yes, IS and Clan have performance outliers, and ? Not everything is as good as the other, ye know ?
Yes, IS structure buffs where a bit ... much, so ? Don´t go for the CT then, derp .
Yes, burntimes on Clan lasers is LONG, and ? Hold it properly on target and the lazurs will do their job .

Maybe all you bad clan players should go and watch a recording of -BO-, 228 or KCOM or even better get a lesson from those guys, since they have their stuff nailed down and many of you Clan players obviously don´t .

ADAPT
OVERCOME
SURVIVE

#thinkingmansshooter

[Gas Guzzler]

Spadejack, on 08 January 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

its easier for us IS players

[Kotev]

Rad Hanzo, on 08 January 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

Balance is good, certainly better than before so I hardly can understand the need for all the lamenting from Clan side .
Yes, IS and Clan have performance outliers, and ? Not everything is as good as the other, ye know ?
Yes, IS structure buffs where a bit ... much, so ? Don´t go for the CT then, derp .
Yes, burntimes on Clan lasers is LONG, and ? Hold it properly on target and the lazurs will do their job .

Maybe all you bad clan players should go and watch a recording of -BO-, 228 or KCOM or even better get a lesson from those guys, since they have their stuff nailed down and many of you Clan players obviously don´t .

ADAPT
OVERCOME
SURVIVE

#thinkingmansshooter

Dude i know you from the battlefield and know that you are good player but why why you have to calling names all people worried about balance bad players. I sugest you take yourself and your unit into clan and go fight -BO-, 228 or KCOM and then will we see "on video" how you adapt, overcome, survive. It will be very educational i`m sure and we ALL gonna watch it then discus it here
P.S.
I`m not Clan fanboy or something i`m only player that wants more or less equal balance so pilot skill will matter the most.

Edited by Kotev, 08 January 2016 - 09:00 PM.

[Maximus Wolf]

Der Hesse, on 07 January 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...97a1f688930af0e[/smurfy]

Now look at a madcat with the same firepower (2UAC10):

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6d5edf527971a1b[/smurfy]

15 tons less, and 1,75 less DPS, but 30 kph faster, better maneuverability, 5 Jumpjets, much more ammo, more then twice the maximum damage total and 34 % more cooling efficiency.

First, please let me me say that I respect you very much, Der Hesse. But...

You're definitely don't play clan site (a lot). Cause in your Timbie config you see 240 CUAC10 ammo and think it's a lot. The problem is that it's not and a lot of IS pilots making this mistake not knowing clan mechanics very well.

C-AC10 and C-UAC10 shot 3 rounds with 3.33 dmg per each with one salvo. So, in our clan universe 3 C-AC10/C-UAC10 rounds = 1 IS AC10/UAC10 round. That comes to following fact: your build has only 210/3=70 shots. Which, in case with 2 guns in fact is 70/2=35 shots. And I'm pretty sure you understand that your ammo will be depleted VERY fast with UACs.