447 replies to this topic

[Der Hesse]

I honestly think that balance between best IS mechs and best Clan mechs is pretty good right now. At least the best we had so far. I also think it´s still slightly in favor of Clans, but that´s debatable because im a speedfreak.

It is true that the HPS for Clan weapons is higher. But so is their DPS and especially DPS/T. You can see that pretty good at smurfys.

So if you want to talk about balance regarding which mechs run hotter with equal damage output you might want to look into the DPH stats and consider also DPS/T because free tonnage together with crits means more heatsinks. Those are for example for Energy nearly all in favor of Clans with some neglectible exceptions that are equal. I don´t have the time right now to go into details with ballistics and missiles because there the situation is even more difficult.

It is also true, that in general the Clans have more spread and burntimes, resulting in damage loss. But that´s one of the balancing factors and can even be countered by a good pilot. Since Clans tend to have the idea that they are the better pilots it shouldn´t be a big factor.
At least you have the opportunity to get higher damage with good skills where the damage on IS mechs is capped earlier.

0 survivability quirks is wrong. The Clan XL is a very big one.

Face time is a matter of piloting and builds and hard to generalize. Especially when it comes to ballistics Clans seem to underestimate the facetime of IS mechs. What do you think i do in an UAC5 mech, which is the only IS weapon that can compare to clan ballistics (gauss not counted because it´s obviously the same facetime for both)? Do you think i got the time for torso twists? I don´t! Not even in a medium if i want to use my DPS. And retreating into cover is same for both techs except that clans are in general faster. Regarding lasers i have to shoot more often for same damage so the overall burntime and with it the facetime should be about equal too.

I want to make clear that i absolutely hate the IS quirks because they force me to use precisely predefined builds to have a good dropdeck, but they are necessary atm. because there are not enough other balancing factors.

And to end this post.... initially i just wanted to point out that LupineShadow told Gorgo that he didn´t factor in some relevant stats while doing absolutely the same himself. Something like that makes me slightly angry.

Edited by Der Hesse, 06 January 2016 - 06:07 AM.

[Hunter Watzas]

The forces are on par if you neglect the top mechs for IS; In a general throw together of a mix of mechs, they are balanced. However, once you get to the top mechs of both sides, the Clans are out matched.

Clan XL doesn't force you to hit our torsos. If you are a better IS pilot you only hit the CT. Bam counter argued. Clan UACs have less registration than IS ballistics. As a clan pilot; i am out gunned, are more fragile, and typically have similar or less range than my IS opponents. I think the DPS for a Clan laser and IS laser is about the same when you don't include quirks, then you give the IS quirks and suddenly all of their weapons are more powerful.

The other night, a few of us went through all of the weight classes and rated them. No Clan Mech was ever on top with the current patch and usually there were two or three comparable IS chassis (because they have more).

For reference here is what we came up with: (not including IIC) This was just an example (don't try to argue ranking since that isn't the purpose).
Lights
Firestarter
Wolfhound
Artic Cheetah
Raven
Locust
Jenner
Adder
Commando
Kitfox/Spider/Mist/Urban

Mediums
Blackjack
Hunchback
Stormcrow
Enforcer
Wolverine
Centurion
Shadowcat/Cicada
Griffin
ShadowHawk
Nova/Kintaro/Trebuchet
Vindicator/Ice

Heavy
Thunderbolt
Maruader/Jager/Quickdraw/Timberwolf
Grasshopper/BlackKnight/Jaguar
Hellbringer
Dragon
MadDog
Catapult
Cataphract
Summoner
Orion

Assault
Atlas
Stalker
Direwolf
King Crab
Banshee
Battlemaster
Warhawk
Highlander
Awesome
Executioner
Gargoyle
Zeus
Victor

[Islington]

100mile, on 29 December 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

Look, the biggest problems for the Clans right now:
1) All the major "Merc" units left Clan space in an attempt to skew the info coming from CW game play because they don't like problem 3...
2) the tonnage for IS side needs to be dropped back a little bit, maybe give IS 5 tons more which still equals 60 extra tons or one whole Heavy mech. 15 tons is just too much...it's like giving us 3 extra heavy mechs per fight...
3) "Easy win Button" was removed.

Biggest advantages for Clan mechs..
1) still have to do twice as much damage on each clan mech to kill it than you do on each IS mech when comparing Assaults to Assaults, Heavies to heavies, mediums to mediums, lights to lights...
2) Overall range when used properly and comparing weight classes to each other again, giving ability to do more damage from distance when done properly.
3) Mechs are still faster overall (Except lights) and thus are able to maneuver better and respond to tactics easier and quicker.

Solution to balance: Merc units move back into Clan territory and IS tonnage gets dropped back a bit.

This is utter nonsense. Jade Falcon had plenty of fantastic units (KCOM, MJ12, etc ...) still playing very actively while SWOL and 228 were taking all their territory. The Clans arent getting spanked because they dont have any good players. In fact they have some of the best players. They're getting spanked because their mechs can't compete. Any other conclusion you might want to draw is just plain dishonest and you know it.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Islington, on 06 January 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

This is utter nonsense. Jade Falcon had plenty of fantastic units (KCOM, MJ12, etc ...) still playing very actively while SWOL and 228 were taking all their territory. The Clans arent getting spanked because they dont have any good players. In fact they have some of the best players. They're getting spanked because their mechs can't compete. Any other conclusion you might want to draw is just plain dishonest and you know it.

You made me confused... do they or dont they have good players? About the clan mechs, i agree with you, clan tech is way off...

[Jon Gotham]

Der Hesse, on 06 January 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

Something like that makes me slightly angry.

Makes me angry too mate, Gorgo's Is chest beating is starting to irritate to the extreme. Damage per heat is largely pointless stat in my opinion as you have to factor in that wastage I mentioned in a target range envirnment firing just single weapons sure I see your point, but you have to factor it in to combat conditions.
Plus dps weapons? Utterly pointless to use in mwo currently. PPFLD are best builds, end of. If I can put my 40 exactly where I want it, every single time vs your 60 spread I'm going to win. Remember I'm going to be twisting the instant my PPFLD has left the barrel, you ain't. Plus I have extra HP to soak that damage that don't get spread. The more extra structure components I spread that damage across only lengthens my longevity....

I'm genuinely curious as to why you think clans have the edge? I am a primary IS player, that runs a clan alt account. I know what ,my Is builds can do and what my clan builds can do. I know their respective kdr and W/R-my Is stuff is superior across the board.
Could you share your thoughts as to why you still feel clan is better? I ask as many top tier players feel otherwise-many Is only guys feel the same.....?

[Der Hesse]

Well, obviously DPH is not pointless if you want to tell that Clan mechs run hotter then IS mechs. Because if DPH is lower on clan mechs they do in fact run cooler then IS mechs. Its as simple as that. And because of that there are IS quirks to counter it for balance sake.
I really can´t say it any more simple than that. Read my former posts and try to understand them and damn.....look into the numbers. They are all available.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Der Hesse, on 06 January 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Well, obviously DPH is not pointless if you want to tell that Clan mechs run hotter then IS mechs. Because if DPH is lower on clan mechs they do in fact run cooler then IS mechs. Its as simple as that. And because of that there are IS quirks to counter it for balance sake.
I really can´t say it any more simple than that. Read my former posts and try to understand them and damn.....look into the numbers. They are all available.

You know that with the recent nerfs, clan DHS are in fact, SHS, right?

[Der Hesse]

And why did they do that? Because they had to balance the better DPH for example.

[pwnface]

Islington, on 06 January 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

This is utter nonsense. Jade Falcon had plenty of fantastic units (KCOM, MJ12, etc ...) still playing very actively while SWOL and 228 were taking all their territory. The Clans arent getting spanked because they dont have any good players. In fact they have some of the best players. They're getting spanked because their mechs can't compete. Any other conclusion you might want to draw is just plain dishonest and you know it.

Your conclusion is incorrect. POPULATION IMBALANCE is the only thing that has bearing on the CW map. To think the map has anything to do with gameplay balance is foolhardy. KCOM and NS, both in CJF currently, can win 100% of our matches in a night and still lose ground. There are simply way more IS players currently than clan players.

[pwnface]

Hunter Watzas, on 06 January 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

The forces are on par if you neglect the top mechs for IS; In a general throw together of a mix of mechs, they are balanced. However, once you get to the top mechs of both sides, the Clans are out matched.

Clan XL doesn't force you to hit our torsos. If you are a better IS pilot you only hit the CT. Bam counter argued. Clan UACs have less registration than IS ballistics. As a clan pilot; i am out gunned, are more fragile, and typically have similar or less range than my IS opponents. I think the DPS for a Clan laser and IS laser is about the same when you don't include quirks, then you give the IS quirks and suddenly all of their weapons are more powerful.

The other night, a few of us went through all of the weight classes and rated them. No Clan Mech was ever on top with the current patch and usually there were two or three comparable IS chassis (because they have more).

For reference here is what we came up with: (not including IIC) This was just an example (don't try to argue ranking since that isn't the purpose).
Lights
Firestarter
Wolfhound
Artic Cheetah
Raven
Locust
Jenner
Adder
Commando
Kitfox/Spider/Mist/Urban

Mediums
Blackjack
Hunchback
Stormcrow
Enforcer
Wolverine
Centurion
Shadowcat/Cicada
Griffin
ShadowHawk
Nova/Kintaro/Trebuchet
Vindicator/Ice

Heavy
Thunderbolt
Maruader/Jager/Quickdraw/Timberwolf
Grasshopper/BlackKnight/Jaguar
Hellbringer
Dragon
MadDog
Catapult
Cataphract
Summoner
Orion

Assault
Atlas
Stalker
Direwolf
King Crab
Banshee
Battlemaster
Warhawk
Highlander
Awesome
Executioner
Gargoyle
Zeus
Victor

You can't just make up a ****** list and use it as evidence and then say don't argue the list because that isn't the point. I disagree with the majority of your list and think you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Jack Spade Ward]

pwnface, on 06 January 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

You can't just make up a ****** list and use it as evidence and then say don't argue the list because that isn't the point. I disagree with the majority of your list and think you have no idea what you are talking about.

he actually said that... read his post again

[Gorgo7]

kamiko kross, on 06 January 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

Makes me angry too mate, Gorgo's Is chest beating is starting to irritate to the extreme. Damage per heat is largely pointless stat in my opinion as you have to factor in that wastage I mentioned in a target range envirnment firing just single weapons sure I see your point, but you have to factor it in to combat conditions.
Plus dps weapons? Utterly pointless to use in mwo currently. PPFLD are best builds, end of. If I can put my 40 exactly where I want it, every single time vs your 60 spread I'm going to win. Remember I'm going to be twisting the instant my PPFLD has left the barrel, you ain't. Plus I have extra HP to soak that damage that don't get spread. The more extra structure components I spread that damage across only lengthens my longevity....

I'm genuinely curious as to why you think clans have the edge? I am a primary IS player, that runs a clan alt account. I know what ,my Is builds can do and what my clan builds can do. I know their respective kdr and W/R-my Is stuff is superior across the board.
Could you share your thoughts as to why you still feel clan is better? I ask as many top tier players feel otherwise-many Is only guys feel the same.....?

Refuting your false claims is hardly chest beating. Do you even know what 20% cooldown even means? Not from what I can gather reading you multiple posts from today and in the past.
As far as your opinion goes you are entitled to it but as soon as you put it out there you are subject to criticism just like everyone else.
So far you have been unable to refute anything I have posted concerning your mistaken take on weapons and damage.
I could not disagree more with you concerning balance, however, I am only rebutting your copious amount of jingoistic posts.

Still waiting for that apology in the Daily Whine.

G7

[Jon Gotham]

Der Hesse, on 06 January 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Well, obviously DPH is not pointless if you want to tell that Clan mechs run hotter then IS mechs. Because if DPH is lower on clan mechs they do in fact run cooler then IS mechs. Its as simple as that. And because of that there are IS quirks to counter it for balance sake.
I really can´t say it any more simple than that. Read my former posts and try to understand them and damn.....look into the numbers. They are all available.

I read your former posts and i don't understand them at all. that's why I asked! you didn't address my statement concerning effective, efficient damage application. also if clan mechs run cooler, why do they overheat more?
Because in actual match conditions...they do. their heatsinks don't work as well and heat cap is lower, meaning shorter time to overheat.
To negate that you need to run srm/ballistic builds mainly then you are back to the burn/contatc time problem. the logic doesn't add up?

[pwnface]

Spadejack, on 06 January 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

he actually said that... read his post again

I read his post. He is using his list in support of these claims:

Hunter Watzas, on 06 January 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

The forces are on par if you neglect the top mechs for IS; In a general throw together of a mix of mechs, they are balanced. However, once you get to the top mechs of both sides, the Clans are out matched.

The other night, a few of us went through all of the weight classes and rated them. No Clan Mech was ever on top with the current patch and usually there were two or three comparable IS chassis (because they have more).

I disagree with those claims and his list that he is using in support of them.

[Jon Gotham]

Gorgo7, on 06 January 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Refuting your false claims is hardly chest beating. Do you even know what 20% cooldown even means? Not from what I can gather reading you multiple posts from today and in the past.
As far as your opinion goes you are entitled to it but as soon as you put it out there you are subject to criticism just like everyone else.
So far you have been unable to refute anything I have posted concerning your mistaken take on weapons and damage.
I could not disagree more with you concerning balance, however, I am only rebutting your copious amount of jingoistic posts.

Still waiting for that apology in the Daily Whine.

G7

Well, being threatened or saying sorry for being offended by you? Ok I'll play ball, see thread. Your attitude has earned you my emnity. Our opinions differ. Mine are gained from using both sets of tech, playing with and speaking to others that do the same. This includes many players that WERE clan players. Hearing what they have to say, especially the ones who never played IS before is very enlightening.

As for refuting things you refute with facts...what you said is your opinion. As is what I said. Though I'll give you +1 for "jingoistic."

Edited by kamiko kross, 06 January 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I haven't noticed any disadvantage playing as Clans. Its just as easy.

[Gorgo7]

kamiko kross, on 06 January 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

No chance on that mate. Your attitude has earned you my emnity. Our opinions differ. Mine are gained from using both sets of tech, playing with and speaking to others that do the same. This includes many players that WERE clan players. Hearing what they have to say, especially the ones who never played IS before is very enlightening.

As for refuting things you refute with facts...what you said is your opinion. As is what I said. Though I'll give you +1 for "jingoistic."

Opinions are just that. Opinions.
What does 20% cooldown do for your weapons kamiko? I'd love for you to tell me.

[Danjo San]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 January 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

I haven't noticed any disadvantage playing as Clans. Its just as easy.

For the first time ever I feel the game in balance.

[Jon Gotham]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 January 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

I haven't noticed any disadvantage playing as Clans. Its just as easy.

I would say though Gas, that you may not notice because you and your unit are pretty **** good at the game. I've been the token tag along pug on many of your drops, you guys have VERY good cohesion and average pilot skill is up there too.
That might be a factor.
Have you fought Ms and 228 meta teams yet? that'd be the real litmus test. Because I remember before latest round of clan nerfs when i dropped with some of your guys, the standard was to take the brawl to the clanners and just overwhelm them. when I've tagged along with your guys, i have yet to lose a single CW match.....

I only have my opinion because I'm not as good at the game as you are, and I do notice a rather sizable difference between the sets of tech-it might be my builds who knows. But my clan stuff does not feel as effective as my Is stuff right now.
MY Blackjacks for example, are currently all over my clan mediums. My Black knights make my HBR and Summoner look rather tame...
Maybe Is tech suits me better?

[StonedVet]

Carl, on 05 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

Unplayable for Clans, NOT. 11 matches today for 9 wins. I am a proud member of a unit and even when we didnt have a full 12 man the pugs stepped up and followed drop command.

Unless IS brings 2 waves of assaults we are fine and even then we just need to find the best tactics to beat it.

Get into a unit and watch the wins flow.

Well said