447 replies to this topic

[Der Hesse]

Maximus Wolf, on 10 January 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

Yep, in general you are right, our CUACs are more lightweight, occupy less crit slots and even cost less. As a proud pilot of direwhale with 2xAUAC10+2xCUAC5 I can tell you that 5-6 seconds of direct fire at medium range has a very devastating effect from critical CT+ST to annihilation depending on on 'mech cheats quirks and pilot's skills. But it's called direwhale for a reason and if you get close enough I just can't turn like at all. And compared to Atlas it has like twice less survivability.

Timbie that you've mentioned also has it's problems and in compression to IS mechs it's just made of paper. Yeah, in random matches I usually do like 700-900 dmg with it (C-ERPPC+4xSRM6+4xC-ERSL) using chaos within enemy team and my speed+manoeuvrability, but in CW it just doesn't work and you die in one well-focused shot.

I'm just trying to say that in some cases our weapon is better (only in some), but mechs itself are not that OP if you play them a lot and do really know what have they become.

I´m not even talking about the direwhale so far. If you attack one face on you are dead. It´s as simple as that. No problem here. I for myself typically don´t last 5-6 seconds if i happen to run into one standing still around some corner. It´s more like instant death. The worst is that you can´t fire back even if he is a bad pilot and spreads the damage all over you, because of all the cockpit shake. So for me the day has still to come where i beat a direwhale in an atlas in a fair head on 1/1 attack situation.

Other way around the direwhale is dead meat when i get him from behind with my oxide and he has no backup. That´s tactics and no balance thing. Only thing you could argue is that you can´t build any IS mech with that firepower, but the direwhale indeed has some drawbacks compensating a bit for that. An atlas at least has a chance to hit a light hiding in its back when the pilot is good.

Regarding you argument about the timberwolf i do disagree. Tell me just one IS mech that can really kill a timberwolf in one well focused shot. Headshots do not count because they work similar in both techs. I consider myself a pretty good pilot but i never did that so far. Only thing i could imagine would be a timberwolf without backarmor turning his back to a good IS pilot with a massive alpha build (still no idea what that should be, but it may be possible in pure maths). But that would be no balance issue.

I for my part do kill a lot of timberwolfs in CW, especially in the 7mpl 5ss. I typically need 3-6 well aimed alphas (depends how well i hit ct). A timberwolf that allows me to do so without killing me or changing into a better position where it can shoot back deserves to die in my opinion. I NEVER go 1/1 in a fair fight against a timberwolf when i know the name of the pilot because i know in best case i will get out of the fight as a wreck that will die in the next confrontation.

Those good timberwolf pilots i talk about pack an alpha i can only dream about in an IS mech and knwo how to make use of their superiour speed and jumpjets. They typically hit you with an SRM or UAC alpha then disengage or dodge to cool down because they don´t only know the advantages of their mech but also it´s disadvantages. The 2nd or 3rd time they do so i´m typically dead.
When they don´t have to engage in close combat they just snipe around with some erml or other mid to long range equipment to make sure they can onehit the enemy once he reaches brawling distance, waht is 300 meters for the 5ss.

Edited by Der Hesse, 11 January 2016 - 01:48 AM.

[Inkarnus]

Der Hesse, on 11 January 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

I´m not even talking about the direwhale so far. If you attack one face on you are dead. It´s as simple as that. No problem here. I for myself typically don´t last 5-6 seconds if i happen to run into one standing still around some corner. It´s more like instant death. The worst is that you can´t fire back even if he is a bad pilot and spreads the damage all over you, because of all the cockpit shake. So for me the day has still to come where i beat a direwhale in an atlas in a fair head on 1/1 attack situation.

you do realise that for an atlas and direwolf for 4 seconds intervall are 152 damage for the direwale when all UACs not jam
and for the atlas its 2x70 thats 140 while the atlas has the benefit that his damage is FRONTLOADED while the dire needs facetime
if you not torso twist its your own faul that you loose under 300m to a direwale.

should be enough educational material to even get started to understand the mechanics in that matchup https://youtu.be/yk1YTUzmdSk?t=23m5s especially pay attention to damage dealt and recieved.

Der Hesse, on 11 January 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

A timberwolf that allows me to do so without killing me or changing into a better position where it can shoot back deserves to die in my opinion.

So basically you say if a timberwolf engages a Thunderbolt 5ss they automatically lose great balance .

Der Hesse, on 11 January 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

I NEVER go 1/1 in a fair fight against a timberwolf when i know the name of the pilot because i know in best case i will get out of the fight as a wreck that will die in the next confrontation.

even admitting it is the more skilled players then you that you have a problem with instead of the TImberwolf itself.

Der Hesse, on 11 January 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

hey typically hit you with an SRM or UAC alpha then disengage or dodge to cool down because they don´t only know the advantages of their mech but also it´s disadvantages. The 2nd or 3rd time they do so i´m typically dead.

Poke wars par excellence. You know that it is your fault for even allowing this to happen right? Pug logic if i get hit hide HIDE HIIIIIIDEEE.
Especially since every brawler wants to get hit outside of its optimal range in the first place and obviously wants to play to strengths of his enemys instead of its own. Btw it is always the less favorable mech that does a poke war since he cant straight up win.
never noticed that?
Same with metamechs meta tier 1 timbers mostly only containing sniper builds that can be done on the ebon far better?

But its cool that you say whats the problem is with clans that some weapons heat is too high to even fight a prolonged battle.
They can mostly only be used to finish off damaged enemys not full health one especially with the quirks.
Even with the most sustainable builds they have problems.
While IS hasnt these issues since they run cooler already and can tank more thanks to quirks and with -10%-20% energy heat puke vomit after vomit .

Edited by Inkarnus, 11 January 2016 - 08:09 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Inkarnus, on 09 January 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

I made a clear statement and for you to pick the weakest argument out of it to basically say duuh clams are fine is a bit lackluster especially since i made a head on comparison in a specific niche is kinda all saying.
So iam taking you are agreeing with me telling "Clans Heat to Damage ratio is terrible" since you dont even try to argument against it.
Since saying you *FEEL* something not backed up by any data or by any argument is a reasonable reply.
Then going out to say its fine because you can use tactic vs an imbalance doesnt make it a valid argument in the reasoning about balance since the guy on the opfor can use tactics to negate applyed tactics....

I didn't check your numbers but I think your comparison more just points out that MPL are not good weapons, and why are you brawling in an Ebon Jag anyway? The "tactic" I refer to is playing to the advantage of your mech. Everyone should be doing that. Why would you play to the advantage of your opponent unless you are forced to, and if you are forced to than that is a team fail.

Clan MPL boating does not play to the strengths of the Ebon Jag, so of course one of the best brawling heavies the IS has going to have the advantage in a brawl, so you should try to stay at 500 m or so, shouldn't be hard with extra speed. It's essentially like saying that same MPL Ebon would have a field day with a quad ER LL 5ss under 300 m. The 5ss shouldn't be brawling with anything, so how can you judge balance based off of that. Put some range in the Ebon, and have fun. Don't be in a hurry to close until they are all beat up. If you want to brawl, bring a different mech. But TBH, with the exception of vitric forge I never think brawling is a good idea as a Clan mech. They are too good at 5-600 m. 5ss is 42 damage at 308m, cLPL + ER ML laser vomit is 54 at 446m. I'll take that 9/10 times.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 January 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Inkarnus]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 January 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

I didn't check your numbers but I think your comparison more just points out that MPL are not good weapons, and why are you brawling in an Ebon Jag anyway? The "tactic" I refer to is playing to the advantage of your mech. Everyone should be doing that. Why would you play to the advantage of your opponent unless you are forced to, and if you are forced to than that is a team fail.

Clan MPL boating does not play to the strengths of the Ebon Jag, so of course one of the best brawling heavies the IS has going to have the advantage in a brawl, so you should try to stay at 500 m or so, shouldn't be hard with extra speed. It's essentially like saying that same MPL Ebon would have a field day with a quad ER LL 5ss under 300 m. The 5ss shouldn't be brawling with anything, so how can you judge balance based off of that. Put some range in the Ebon, and have fun. Don't be in a hurry to close until they are all beat up. If you want to brawl, bring a different mech. But TBH, with the exception of vitric forge I never think brawling is a good idea as a Clan mech. They are too good at 5-600 m. 5ss is 42 damage at 308m, cLPL + ER ML laser vomit is 54 at 446m. I'll take that 9/10 times.

I brought the MPL up because they are comparabel and easy to compare. Without much learning the numbers games for other weapons to keep it KISS. But apperently you dont care about that anyway .

"The "tactic" I refer to is playing to the advantage of your mech. Everyone should be doing that. Why would you play to the advantage of your opponent unless you are forced to, and if you are forced to than that is a team fail."

you succesfully voided your own argument =D + that you wont even compete vs the thunderboldt ( 7mpl obviously) if you run that buildt and HE RUNS TO HIS STRENGTH. Since he will then make mincemeat out of your Ebon (if you are not a superior player and i know you are atleast better then your average mwo boyscout so i expect atleast you or NS as a whole to atleast try to be objective or i will steal your hookers <3).

Edited by Inkarnus, 11 January 2016 - 09:53 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Inkarnus, on 11 January 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

I brought the MPL up because they are comparabel and easy to compare. Without much learning the numbers games for other weapons to keep it KISS. But apperently you dont care about that anyway .

"The "tactic" I refer to is playing to the advantage of your mech. Everyone should be doing that. Why would you play to the advantage of your opponent unless you are forced to, and if you are forced to than that is a team fail."

you succesfully voided your own argument =D + that you wont even compete vs the thunderboldt ( 7mpl obviously) if you run that buildt and HE RUNS TO HIS STRENGTH. Since he will then make mincemeat out of your Ebon (if you are not a superior player and i know you are atleast better then your average mwo boyscout so i expect atleast you or NS as a whole to atleast try to be objective or i will steal your hookers <3).

I wouldn't run an MPL Ebon Jag, I would run classic laser vomit or Gauss and 2 LPLs and get alphas off prior to the 5ss being in his optimum range, so he would be soft. I didn't void my own argument, I just said that comparing an unoptimized mech with one of the best the IS has to offer doesn't prove anything. AND I pointed out that a lot of people complain about balance because they stack the deck against themselves and then get beat.

I do care about numbers, I have posted detailed posts with Matlab plots comparing a Timber Wolf and Black Knight firepower wise considering heat and heat sinks (you can probably find it if you search Black Knight vs Timber Wolf), but it all fell on deaf ears, and I haven't had time this weekend to forum warrior as much otherwise I would have looked at your numbers more

Numbers do matter, but you have to consider all factors. Does 7 MPLs do more damage per heat than Clan laser vomit loadouts? Yes. But what about range, firepower, DHS count, etc? I'm not a brawl jock, so i rarely use the 5ss, especially now after they added ghost heat to that 7th laser. I would much rather harvest damage in a 3 cLPL timber wolf from 700 m away then be brawling in a 5SS, but that is just me.

All I'm saying is that yes a 5SS will beat a 6 MPL Ebon Jag in a 1v1, but a LPL/ERML Ebon Jag can have more of an impact on the match outcome than a 5SS. Therefore, you can't just say that a 5SS is "better". Its a better brawler but if properly loaded out, the Ebon Jag will be more dangerous at range and can therefore be more of a credit to the team.

[Kotev]

Dudes this discussion is already closed and Inkarnus has provided you with the evidence. https://youtu.be/yk1YTUzmdSk?t=23m5s Thx mate for the video. So people before comenting any further pls watch it, then comment. Over and out.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kotev, on 11 January 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Dudes this discussion is already closed and Inkarnus has provided you with the evidence. https://youtu.be/yk1YTUzmdSk?t=23m5s Thx mate for the video. So people before comenting any further pls watch it, then comment. Over and out.

Yeah one 1v1 closes the discussion

1v1s never really prove anything, its too easy to get into an advantageous position when only one mech is shooting at you.

Can't you guys just accept that the Atlas is better than a Dire at one thing (brawling) where a Dire is better mid range dakka and dual gauss/laser/ER PPC builds? Like seriously? Atlas has an advantage in a brawl and its OP?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 January 2016 - 10:30 AM.

[Kotev]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 January 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

Yeah one 1v1 closes the discussion

1v1s never really prove anything, its too easy to get into an advantageous position when only one mech is shooting at you.

Dude do you watch the video, do you watch Timber vs BlackKnight fight? I know you will say "mounting uac on Timbi is not cool" but look at the shear firepower BlackKnight has, by comparison that Timbi looked squeamish and melted away like light mech. But i`m over and out from this thread that video nailed it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kotev, on 11 January 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

Dude do you watch the video, do you watch Timber vs BlackKnight fight? I know you will say "mounting uac on Timbi is not cool" but look at the shear firepower BlackKnight has, by comparison that Timbi looked squeamish and melted away like light mech. But i`m over and out from this thread that video nailed it.

Well at that engagement range the Black Knight definitely has the advantage. Trade offs people. Trade offs.

[Bud Crue]

Wait...just saw this thread was active again.

So now the argument is that Black Knights are OP and better than Timberwolves? This is supposed to be taken seriously?

I mean I know the "IS is so OP" crowd likes to point to 1 mech (usually the Black Jack) to make the totally irrational point that ALL IS mechs are some how equally overly quirked, and thus have rendered their oft asserted superior clan skill moot. But now you guys are pointing to the Black Knight as the poster child of supposed IS superiority? The low hard point, over heated, ya need to run an IS XL-engine to make it work well?...that Black Knight is the "IS is OP" mech of the week now?

Good lord.

How about you guys go after the really OP IS mechs? How about the Vindicator...oooo, better yet the Victor?! That mech just slaughters the clanners in CW. All I ever see is Timberwolves and Hellbringers dropping like flys to the unstoppable wave of Victors! Yeah! OP Vindicators and Victors "VVVV fo victory!" As we like to say over here in IS easy mode country.

This argument was silly when you guys just focused on the Black Jack. Now? You have successfully made it into a form of absurdist perfomance art.

[Jon Gotham]

The whole "balance is fine" crowd really are not helping here.I think Gas Guzzler nailed a few posts up, situationally each type of mech is "better" at their optimal range.
The 5SS for example, is an ungodly monster. How do I know? An average pilot like me (and yes I'm a tier 3 nooblet) does very well in it, kdr at last count was above 7.....if it does well in an average pilot's hands what will it do in a good ones? That same monster is useless outside it's optimal range though.....
My ERLL Raven 4x is an ungodly dual ERLL sniper. It's range out ranges clan ERs and it's duration of 0.875 seconds compared to clan 1.25s is just shocking frankly...

Trouble is....there are several Is chassis that outdo the clans at their own supposed "optimal." If we Is were the bezerker brawlers but got outdone at range I'd be fine with that.But currently we seem to have a mech for all seasons that simply shadows the clan equivalent. Possibly that's where the clanners get so frustrated?
Now obviously NOT ALL Is mechs are better than clan mechs, i.e the aforementioned Vindicator but we do have have some chassis:
That are better brawlers than clans
That are better mid range than clans
That are better snipers than clans

That's only 1-3 (off top of my head) chassis from each of those categories. This I think isn't much of an issue in solo Q, nor to group Q to an extent but it is highlighted in CW where people of course will bring the best chassis for their faction to play. Currently I believe the "best" of the Is at each range are better than the clans. that's where the issue lies, it's not IS vs Clan as such but the "best" of the IS vs clans.
Disagree if you want to, and I'm sure some will but i play both factions extensively and my best IS kit is better at it's specialist build than the equivalent clan mech I own.

[Bud Crue]

kamiko,

My beef isn't that some IS mechs are or are not better than some clan mechs, but with the seemingly consistent and insistent view being put forth by predominant clan players that ALL IS mechs are magically OP because the Black Jack has a structure buff. Now the Black Knight...a mech which has had pages of posts written about its less than desirable characteristics...is being put forth as an example of the "OP IS mechs". This is nuts.

Remember when the Cheetah came out and a lot of us were complaining about its seeming invulnerability before it was nerfed? I don't recall that example being used over and over by IS players to say in effect: "the Cheetah is faster and tougher (and has ECM) when compared to the Firestarter; therefore all Clan mechs are faster and tougher (and have ECM) when compared to IS mechs." That is essentially what is being asserted, over and over, and over in these "balance" discussions by an awful lot of clan players. Do any of you even remember the game before the last nerf/buff pass? When the CW map was being dominated by Wolf and/or Jade Falcon? Remember Tukayyid (1 or 2) and all the gloating on these forums by clan players that their victory was all about skill not mechs?

Oh right...when that was occurring these same clan players crowed up and down that IS players whining about "OP clan mechs" were whiners that needed to "git gud" and that any perceived "op" aspect of clan mechs was not due to imbalance but rather because clan players are simply superior players than those in the IS. Remember that? I sure do. Its all in the archives for those of you who would care to look.

Some mechs are better than others. This is certainly true. But to pretend that the poor helpless clan mechs are suddenly useless and those super skilled clan players have no hope of ever winning ("we all might as well go play IS, until PGI wakes up!!!") is simply absurd and to act otherwise just feeds these delusions.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Bud Crue, on 11 January 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

kamiko,

My beef isn't that some IS mechs are or are not better than some clan mechs, but with the seemingly consistent and insistent view being put forth by predominant clan players that ALL IS mechs are magically OP because the Black Jack has a structure buff. Now the Black Knight...a mech which has had pages of posts written about its less than desirable characteristics...is being put forth as an example of the "OP IS mechs". This is nuts.

Remember when the Cheetah came out and a lot of us were complaining about its seeming invulnerability before it was nerfed? I don't recall that example being used over and over by IS players to say in effect: "the Cheetah is faster and tougher (and has ECM) when compared to the Firestarter; therefore all Clan mechs are faster and tougher (and have ECM) when compared to IS mechs." That is essentially what is being asserted, over and over, and over in these "balance" discussions by an awful lot of clan players. Do any of you even remember the game before the last nerf/buff pass? When the CW map was being dominated by Wolf and/or Jade Falcon? Remember Tukayyid (1 or 2) and all the gloating on these forums by clan players that their victory was all about skill not mechs?

Oh right...when that was occurring these same clan players crowed up and down that IS players whining about "OP clan mechs" were whiners that needed to "git gud" and that any perceived "op" aspect of clan mechs was not due to imbalance but rather because clan players are simply superior players than those in the IS. Remember that? I sure do. Its all in the archives for those of you who would care to look.

Some mechs are better than others. This is certainly true. But to pretend that the poor helpless clan mechs are suddenly useless and those super skilled clan players have no hope of ever winning ("we all might as well go play IS, until PGI wakes up!!!") is simply absurd and to act otherwise just feeds these delusions.

If a Black Knight can outgun, outmanouver and outeverything a timber wolf, and is considered a "bad" mech, then yes, IS is so much OP
Thanks for confirming what ive been thinking, and saying, all this time

And by the way, the fact that ALOT of ex-clanners went to IS is probably a hint that things in clans, are way bad... just saying

[Jess Hazen]

I've been saying it for a LONG time, weapon quirks slate needs to be wiped clean forever. Only durability and maneuverability need to be quirked to compensate for under performance of a chassis.

Mirror the nerfs to clan energy range and nerf IS range while you guys are at it.

Edited by Jess Hazen, 11 January 2016 - 01:37 PM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

And if you want to talk about whiners, look at the hundreds of posts from IS players complaining about clan mechs...

[Jon Gotham]

I'll say this Bud, i was of the opinion that all Is was op compared to clans but that comment made by Gas jogged my brain into gear and I got to thinking about it. the reason I felt that was because of the point i made, SOME IS mechs are just flat out superior now to the equivalent clan mech for that given role. E.G some Is kit brawls better than ANY clan mech can due to being quirked excessively, SOME snipes better than any clanmech and SOME are better mid rangers...
The thing that struck me was during CW a clanner will face those "SOME" the majority of the time. so you are nearly always going to be up against the quirk monster that is superior.
In a pug Q game and even in group Q to a lesser extent that isn't so much of a certainty.
I did a match yesterday where our IS opponents were NOT in quirkboats...it was a reasonable match actually. didn't feel UP nor OP. I think it's the combination of the "SOMES" in any one team that make people feel UP.
It's the few overquirked ones that are causing the perceived imbalances i think, pretty much a mirror of the Timbergod/Stormgod period?

[Inkarnus]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 January 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

I wouldn't run an MPL Ebon Jag, I would run classic laser vomit or Gauss and 2 LPLs and get alphas off prior to the 5ss being in his optimum range, so he would be soft. I didn't void my own argument, I just said that comparing an unoptimized mech with one of the best the IS has to offer doesn't prove anything. AND I pointed out that a lot of people complain about balance because they stack the deck against themselves and then get beat.

I do care about numbers, I have posted detailed posts with Matlab plots comparing a Timber Wolf and Black Knight firepower wise considering heat and heat sinks (you can probably find it if you search Black Knight vs Timber Wolf), but it all fell on deaf ears, and I haven't had time this weekend to forum warrior as much otherwise I would have looked at your numbers more

Numbers do matter, but you have to consider all factors. Does 7 MPLs do more damage per heat than Clan laser vomit loadouts? Yes. But what about range, firepower, DHS count, etc? I'm not a brawl jock, so i rarely use the 5ss, especially now after they added ghost heat to that 7th laser. I would much rather harvest damage in a 3 cLPL timber wolf from 700 m away then be brawling in a 5SS, but that is just me.

All I'm saying is that yes a 5SS will beat a 6 MPL Ebon Jag in a 1v1, but a LPL/ERML Ebon Jag can have more of an impact on the match outcome than a 5SS. Therefore, you can't just say that a 5SS is "better". Its a better brawler but if properly loaded out, the Ebon Jag will be more dangerous at range and can therefore be more of a credit to the team.

well if you cant beat it its broken. With the design of the CW maps the argument of getting range or using range vs a brawler composition is night to impossible to solve if the enemy team is competent and makes no mistakes.
Good thing is that most matches are not flawly and mostly pug on pug and you can mitigate by range or playing better some things but you cant erase them and that will get you kinda angry at some point . Which is 10x amplified in Unit vs Unit matches because everyone will get his A mech instead of his A game =D.

Edited by Inkarnus, 11 January 2016 - 01:41 PM.

[Bud Crue]

kamiko kross, on 11 January 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

It's the few overquirked ones that are causing the perceived imbalances i think, pretty much a mirror of the Timbergod/Stormgod period?

With this I agree. There has been and there currently is imbalance with specific mechs. What I disagree is the assertion that there are no clan mechs are or can be superior to ANY IS mechs. The silly example above that a Black Knight which must run an XL in order to "out gun and out maneuver and out anything" (see Spadejack's post above) a Timberwolf is utterly bunk. One...or at worst two...alphas from the Timberwolf to an ST of the Black Knight ends the match. What happens if the BK manages that against the Timberwolf? Not much. Yet here we are several pages into a thread which concludes as this match up being representative of how "bad" the clans have it. Again. Absurd.

There are plenty of threads in these forums of builds and configurations of Clan mechs...especially Timbers that can out perform damn near any similar weight IS mech.

Edited by Bud Crue, 11 January 2016 - 01:45 PM.

[ackstorm]

WANTED, on 07 January 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

I just hope everyone is saving these posts down the line when the next rebalance pass puts Clans above IS again and the big Merc Units go back to Clans. Then we will see the " It's not the Clan tech it's the players that make the difference and teamwork " posts again. Really I just find all this whining funny cause I think the Clanners will be a bit more humble when they are dominating the CW map again.

Been playing CW back and forth since it came out and can count on 2 hands my amount of actual wins in IS vs Clans vs tons of losses.

I finally came to the conclusion during this time that 1) Well known Merc Units, the names we all know by now, can dominate whatever side they are on 2) Roll with the punches and enjoy those rare win moments.I have not had the time since the new changes took place in CW to enjoy the IS roll but hopefully I will soon since karma for me is kinda due.

Indeed it is all about the Merc units ruling wherever they go. There are no factions, no loyalty. No power base at all to prevent Mercs from ruling the world by themselves.

The way the game works now, you might as well just remove the community warfare map because it has no meaning. It's just the powerful units playing chess *with themselves* as they continually change sides.

Frankly I think its time to make 'units' play their own private CW map with other units. Pugs should play with pugs. They should never meet in the middle.

[Cox Devalis]

ackstorm, on 11 January 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Frankly I think its time to make 'units' play their own private CW map with other units. Pugs should play with pugs. They should never meet in the middle.

Guess the main interest in CW for me and my mate is to outplay a 8-12 premade with pugs and being pugs. This is the real challenge for us and we are always looking for a strong enemy. So I can't agree with you in "pugs should play with pugs".
There are a lot of unit twelves who are playing really bad. But what do we see when there is a 12-premade-enemy in front of us? We see friendly chat shouts "oh, no.. we will die all", "PlayerXXX has disconnected" and "we have no chance, guys". This is the core moment of specific match. Here is 50% of lose.
There are so many weak units in CW, but pugs always fear every repeating tag in a table.