447 replies to this topic

[Rushin Roulette]

Inkarnus, on 25 January 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

i would not argue that Clams can always fully reach the 2x value,but it is near that 2x value, especially if you hord engines and dont need to buy them on IS side. Or just dont invest in chassis you dont want to have just to level them.
In clans YOU ALWAYS need to pay upfront engines and upgrades even if you full on plan to just basic out and sell a variant.
Additional you cant keep the Engines seperated from the chassis too, if you decide to sell redundant or not needed chassi variants.

example
Atlas
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...51dffd2cb6608da
13.552.742 (sold base engine), 11.406.075 (spare 350STD)
Direwolf
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f269f9709a7963a
20.208.496 (with additional omnipods)

I am not going to calculate any spare engines lying around out of the costs.... please stay on one side of the argument and dont switch over from one side (old play has many spare engines) to the other (new player can hardly afford the cost of a Mech).

You showed one side of the spectru,. now lets look at the other side of the spectrum... Ill even use Meta mechs for this. Mech pairs that are very often quoted as being must buy for their weight classes;
(prices rounded to the next 0,1 Million Cbills)
ACH
ACH-PRIME 8,0m CB

FS9
FS9-A @ 9,9m CB

How about the meta Mediums?
SCR
SCR-PRIME @ 11,3m CB

BJ1 (Although to be honest Im not sure which one is really meta since it was a long time since Ive used one. This one was the newest 5star build on metamechs)
BJ-1X @ 10,4m Cbills
Note, the IS mech is 10 Tons lighter but only costs 0,9m Cbills less than its first choice clan opponent

Btw. If you want to compare 100 ton mechs, then at least choose the Atlas which is used more in CW due to the ECM
Here is one to compare to your Direwolf at 20,2m Cbills

AS7-D-DC @ 17,5m Cbills - There the 2 times as expensive does not really seem quite as realistic again.... but to be honest... neither the Direwolves nore the Atlai are often seen in CW due to the weight restrictions

Russhuster, on 25 January 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

@Rushin Roulette
so your Attempt of telling us a whopper is nothing but blahblahBullshit

See above and now I say to you I can prove my point... can you or is it all blahblahBullshit what you type?

[ch3sn0k]

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

CLPL has maximum range of 730 meters, Gauss has it at 1980 meters.

How many openings at 1500+ meters will you have in CW maps? Protip: not much. Whereas 500m is the new long range sweet spot.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

You charge-up Gauss while you're leaving cover, and fire either the target you've already noted, or follow their laser trail right into CT. Then you twist to spread the damage and cover-up. Rince and repeat. Gosh, in most cases ERLLs are fired from range where damage is so negligible, that I don't bother getting into cover to begin with. And IS Gauss sniper Jagermech is exactly what I use regularly. I'm good at it, even compared to my unit's peers, because I get a lot of practice. If our opponents are not forced into permanent hiding, I can end up coring-out 3 to 4 mechs using only one.

In most cases CERLLs are fired from range where damage is negligible. In fact with the current structure quirks most damage for IS can be considered negligible.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Which is exactly the point. When the sniper comes back, there's people waiting for him by tracking the LRM impact location.

So you've wasted ammo and banking on the enemy being stupid enough to break cover multiple times in the same spot?

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Finally, a single mech in an organized team is not a great diminisher neither to tanking capability, nor to direct combat power - sometimes it's even impossible to provide that advantage due to map limitations.

Depends on the maps. Unless it's some hardcore narrow pathing BS, you can fit in the majority of your 12 mech drop into one firing flank.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Sure, if you're only capable of managing instant-hit weapons. Power of lasers is an illusion, the real damage output of which is insignificant, compared to what SRMs and UACs actually do. But you choose a stack of weapons, that fire two one-button alpha-strikes and then renders you disfunctional for 15 seconds, simply because it is easier to use. Major f****ing League Gaming right here. That misconception is what makes your gameplay so difficult.

Yeah, it also must make all those 12-stacks of Battlemasters, Thunderbolts and Black Knights gameplay so difficult. Oh wait, it doesn't.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Everything sucks when you only bother about disadvantages. Also, even competetive Clan players have not a clue about combined arms tactics, which is why they're only capable of making the use of mechs, that are severely undersized.

Apparently taking a huge damage magnet with paper thin armor and no weapons (Executioner) is called combined arms now.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

I had no practice with most Omni's, but at least as an observer I wouldn't consider Hellbringer bad. Others - maybe, but when you have everyone trying to use every Omnimech for laser-vomit poking, no wonder they suck. These mechs are better for completely different purposes, just as IS mechs are.Either way, Clans have plently of undersized, mobile mechs, while IS mechs are bulky and relatively slow, provided they trying to meet either decent firepower ratings or similar survivability levels.

Theres a reason why only certain chassis are seriously used. You can't customize away EXE's stupid MASC or Hellbringer standard structure and armor. Yeah, on paper they look good, in reality you've taken a 65 ton mech with less weapons, worse hitboxes and same armor of a 55t Stormcrow

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Really? How?

Oh, you're trolling. Got it.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Which is exactly what Clanners should do, when they encounter predictable behavior, and what you seem to not being able to understand. What's in your control is to use advantages of your weapons, not to account for every weapon choice your enemy can potentially make. A sniper rifle is not used because it is heavy and useless in close-quarters. It is used because it can punch holes in people from over 500 meters.

A sniper rifle is not used because all CW maps are knife-fighting pits.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

I simply cannot relate myself to your issues.

MWO in a nutshell.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Which is why I question other's practical expertise. Sure, Flamers are junk with nothing but minimum values across the board. Sure, Machineguns are awful with very low base damage values. Sure, IS Small Lasers has unforgivingly low range. Sure, lower-end ACs has too steep DPS loss, that is not compensated with their range. Other than that, I see all weapons having their place in CW for specific purposes.

You still haven't explained those supposed purposes without saying 'lel werks 4 me nub'.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

PGI never nerfed clan's AC's, they've buffed them by reducing burst volume. PGI never nerfed SRMs, they reduced their spread. Everything PGI nerfed was heavily abused for inequal returns. And nobody is arguing, that Clans need another nerf, so stop pretending like I do.

I'm just taking the argument to it's logical conclusion.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

It's not nearly as effective and abusive, as it was with Clans, that executed XL-driven IS mechs with a single burst.

IS XL was supposed to be a choice between speed and survivability. Now, thanks to PGI's heavy handed attempts at balance, its a non-choice - why take it when you can be an unkillable frankenmech with more structure than armor? Oh, you're slow? Who cares, most maps are walled paths chock full of cover anyway.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

By using proper tools for the job. And, by using their advantages to an effect, not by ignoring them and whining how's there's only disadvantages afterwards. Finally, by actually trying to learn and acquire expertise on practice, not by following conclusions of dimwit metafags.

And still more words of supposed advantages. Where are those advantages? Can you name them? Clan chassis can't be minmaxed, DPS is either worse or on par, survivability is laughable in comparison. Yeah, clans still have speed and heat dissipation, which both require your whole team to be a 100% coordinated to make use of. Playing CW in anything less than a full premade is an exercise in frustration now.

[B0oN]

About clanmech vs. IS mech costs :

It costs me about 30-42 million CB to outfit one of both sides ... with IS lights being the most expensive ones
Another MAJOR costfactor is the pricetag on modules such as RadarDeprivation an AdvancedSeismicSensor (oh Wallhack granted by PGI, how I love thee) ... both come in at a handy 6 million per pop, not to mention the GXP cost to unlock them in the first place .

About "meta" on clanside :
Think inside and outside of the box ... for instance :
WHK : UAC20 (7t ammo) + UAC10 (4.5t ammo) ... a pretty beefy brawler imo, with -30% UAC jam ^^
TBR : 4SRM6 Art (7t ammo)+ 4SMPL, 2JJ ... another very decent brawler
HBR: 6MPL, ECM ... ECM carrying twinbrother of the feared Wub-TDR with a bit less vomiting endurance
SCR: 9SMPL or 5MPL ... VOMIT GALORE for legdays (you know to never skip legdays, dont´cha^^)

One thing though for clanpilots :
FORGET about winning at poking or extreme range duels, beamtimes and ranges just dont allow for that anymore .
Also HSR-desynch through JJ´ing + beamtimes = YUCKFU damage output

Stop playing like hamsters running in a wheel, doing the same thing over and over again .
So please take IDEAS from metamechs.com or whatever that site is called BUT :
DONT ADHERE TO THEM WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT TO YOUR OWN PLAYSTYLE OR THE STRENGHTS OF THE FACTION YOU ARE BUILDING FOR

and now go and play some

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 26 January 2016 - 01:23 AM.

[Inkarnus]

1

Rushin Roulette, on 25 January 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

I am not going to calculate any spare engines lying around out of the costs.... please stay on one side of the argument and dont switch over from one side (old play has many spare engines) to the other (new player can hardly afford the cost of a Mech).

You showed one side of the spectru,. now lets look at the other side of the spectrum... Ill even use Meta mechs for this. Mech pairs that are very often quoted as being must buy for their weight classes;
(prices rounded to the next 0,1 Million Cbills)
ACH
ACH-PRIME 8,0m CB

FS9
FS9-A @ 9,9m CB

How about the meta Mediums?
SCR
SCR-PRIME @ 11,3m CB

BJ1 (Although to be honest Im not sure which one is really meta since it was a long time since Ive used one. This one was the newest 5star build on metamechs)
BJ-1X @ 10,4m Cbills
Note, the IS mech is 10 Tons lighter but only costs 0,9m Cbills less than its first choice clan opponent

Btw. If you want to compare 100 ton mechs, then at least choose the Atlas which is used more in CW due to the ECM
Here is one to compare to your Direwolf at 20,2m Cbills


AS7-D-DC @ 17,5m Cbills - There the 2 times as expensive does not really seem quite as realistic again.... but to be honest... neither the Direwolves nore the Atlai are often seen in CW due to the weight restrictions

As i said the engines are not to be equated and you lose a whopping 5mill cost on the BJ and FS9 :3
guess what you can switch the engine between chassis too man OP i tell ya that i can use the engine of the FS9 on the BJ.
This is the reason why people will flock for cheaper IS because you dont need to payup for all those engines and switch and match if you dont want to buy em all what you need to in Clans.
The other fact is that the Bjs are quite capable with there 225STD they come stock with and are far survivable

BJ-1X cheap
5.600.000

the guy that always needs XLs on IS side is anyway a moron tbh. Most mechs can perform agillity wise with the quirks nearly as good as if they had a bigger XL with STDs but shees dont tell IS guys how to have even more survivable mechs ;(.
but thats just default clan heavy speed thats garbage right? dont even dare to install Stds IS guys keep XLs pls i love to blew up sidetorsos and get kills =D.

Wtf is that abomination of an atlas anyway LBXs thats so outdated man. About the cost to usefullness ratio i would say medicore ������

Atlas S is the best brawl atlas and most teams i see that run them dont even care about ecm at that point. And why should you if you get -10% missile heat and 1 extra srm6 for base justice! hugging you around the next corner in cover.

Edited by Inkarnus, 26 January 2016 - 05:30 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Yes, you can swap engines around... how often do you do that yourself? I upgrade a mech and keep it that way. If I need a new mech with the same engine I will save up for that mech, then save up additionally for the upgrades (including engine). I do not have time nor the patience to search through the inventory/pupup infos for each mech to see where that one STD 300 engine was that I desperately need for a mech in CW if I change my loadout (let alone do that 4 times if it is a complete new dropdeck).

Either you calculate ALL the costs to fit a mech to make it viable or you leave it and stop trying to make a point because you are obviously not even attempting to make a comparable argument.

P. S. I partially concede the BJ you posted as being cheaper... but again. The SCR is now running 20% faster than the BJ while having a 10 point higher alpha and a nearly 2 point higher sustained DPS. Maybe I should take a leaf out of my own book and make comparable builds... however I wanted to focus on the 2 mechs which everyone says are OP instead of the BJ and a clan underperformer or a SCR and an IS underperformer.. the usual trouble with comparisons between IS and Clans
P. P. S. Please also note the text I had written to both BJ and Atlai buids (purely taken from Mechspecs instead of my own builds, as I dont run a BJ and have never used an Atlas in CW due to weight restrictions

Rushin Roulette, on 25 January 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

BJ1 (Although to be honest Im not sure which one is really meta since it was a long time since Ive used one. This one was the newest 5star build on metamechs)

neither the Direwolves nore the Atlai are often seen in CW due to the weight restrictions

You say IS players running XL engines are gimping themselves.. I agree. IS XLs should only be on Lights (absolutely mandatory in 99% of the cases unless you are running an OP Stock Urbie) and some very specialised sniping builds (This in itself is gimping their team anyways... but that is a different question and is a problem of both IS and Clan PUGs). The builds were found with a 2 min search in a mech database for purely Chassie and then rating (not if I personally would run them or not).

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 26 January 2016 - 05:53 AM.

[Russhuster]

@Rushin Roulette

Yes, i can

you do compare 45 ton mechs (BJ) against a 55 ton mech SCR and call this a valid example?
you need to compare same tonnage to be halfway trustworthy

but you did so in the Assault Mech sector

Your Example mech is an Atlas D-DC the most expensive variant and you boostet it with endo Steel Structure, FFB AR etc what brings me to about 14,4 Milion where do the additional 3 milions come from?

The Direwolf you pulled for comparism has neither Endo Steel nor FFB AR or ECM but costs equal
this fact allone is vaporizing your thesis
And makes me asking myself Is he knowing about what he is speaking of?
Do you own a Direwhale? - i doubt that otherwise you would know

It further has NO structure quirks nor movement quirks it is the slowest and most unmaneuverable mech in the field with movement nerf and a 12.5% heat nerf whilst the DDC comes with a foot long quirklist

and as sugar on top let me ask

WHERE IS MY ECM DIREWOLF ?
The DDC is equipped with ECM the Whale isnt

so your example is non valid and your counterthesis is refuted, again

and so your post is again BlahBlahBullshit

Yours faithfully Russhuster

Edited by Russhuster, 26 January 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

I'm a Founder, playing this game ever since late Closed Beta. Out of over 3 years, that I've played MWO, I've spent roughly 6 months making short breaks from active playing. All the remaining time, I'm playing MWO almost every evening, and about 75-80% of that time I spend playing CW from it's implementation. And you see that "1" on the left with golden bar under it? It's called a Tier 1 PSR rank, FYI.

I've participated in MLM league and NetBattletech online campaign, and an active participant of MRBC league for 5 seasons, not including the 7th season, which is about to begin. I'm a part of a MRBC league team, that is European league's 5th after such most competetive EU teams as Black Spikes MercCorps, Battle Magic Mercenary Unit, Antares Scorpions and 9th Sanguine Tigers. My unit, Tikonov Commonality Armed Forces, represents the largest Russian conglomerate and the largest Capellan Confederation military force in MWO community.

Despite not being held by responsibilities of higher-ranking unit command officers, I'm a part of TCAF military council and participate in unit's affairs including politics, unit structure, member management, tactics and theoretic discussions. I've single-handly created unit's database structure, that our command officers are using to manage unit's rosters, training sessions, mech builds for CW dropdecks and league matches and calculating mech's parameters, together with a complete internal mech database with all numerical values represented in a convenient spreadsheet form.

So by your own standards, you really should consider what I'm trying to tell you.

Well, if you were trying to convince me of anything you'd have lost me in this display of ego. Crikey mate....

[Gorgo7]

Jon Gotham, on 26 January 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

Well, if you were trying to convince me of anything you'd have lost me in this display of ego. Crikey mate....

If you bothered to read what and who he was replying to you wouldn't feel cheap and small. Nor would you believe that it was a display of ego.

[Jon Gotham]

The guy he's replying to isn't the best at..reasoned arguments granted but listing your "accomplishments" like that isn't going to make anyone take you any more seriously. Gas Guzzler earlier on changed my mind to a degree, by being reasonable sans any ego/snark-he also didn't list all of his (and his unit's ) many accomplishments either. He just laid down a common sense outlook.
Only things that should be brought up are facts and critical observations. Being military attache to xyz group means not very much when you are discussing a weapon quirk. You could be the best comp level player in the game but not be objective. you could be tier 5 and make an intelligent point....ego stroking isn't helpful to what we are hashing out.

[Gorgo7]

I hear you, however the other poster asked for his credentials and then got them. It wasn't ego stroking to my eyes. In addition his pedigree certainly adds more weight to what he is saying then not. Talk to a soldier who has seen combat...not his mother if you want to know about it.

[Rushin Roulette]

Russhuster, on 26 January 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

@Rushin Roulette

Yes, i can

you do compare 45 ton mechs (BJ) against a 55 ton mech SCR and call this a valid example?
you need to compare same tonnage to be halfway trustworthy

but you did so in the Assault Mech sector

Your Example mech is an Atlas D-DC the most expensive variant and you boostet it with endo Steel Structure, FFB AR etc what brings me to about 14,4 Milion where do the additional 3 milions come from?

The Direwolf you pulled for comparism has neither Endo Steel nor FFB AR or ECM but costs equal
this fact allone is vaporizing your thesis
And makes me asking myself Is he knowing about what he is speaking of?
Do you own a Direwhale? - i doubt that otherwise you would know

It further has NO structure quirks nor movement quirks it is the slowest and most unmaneuverable mech in the field with movement nerf and a 12.5% heat nerf whilst the DDC comes with a foot long quirklist

and as sugar on top let me ask

WHERE IS MY ECM DIREWOLF ?
The DDC is equipped with ECM the Whale isnt

so your example is non valid and your counterthesis is refuted, again

and so your post is again BlahBlahBullshit

Yours faithfully Russhuster

Wow... you have really convinced me of your inteligent arguments... How could I have been so blind... You are absolutely true... the IS is completely OP when compared to the Clans... I mean how could I have not seen it. The Blackjack is so overpowered compared to the Clan Ice ferret using the same tonnage... Oh wait. the Clans are overpowered because the Stormcorw is much better than the IS Kintaro...

Once again for the rrrreeeeaaaallllyyyy ssssllllooowwww oooffff rrrreeeaaaaddddiiinnngggg

Rushin Roulette, on 26 January 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

however I wanted to focus on the 2 mechs which everyone says are OP instead of the BJ and a clan underperformer or a SCR and an IS underperformer.. the usual trouble with comparisons between IS and Clans

P. S. As for the Direwolf with ECM... Ok, fine. As long as the IS get a 100 Ton mech that is able to mount 5 UAC5s and 5 Medlasers or 4 UAC10s.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 26 January 2016 - 11:16 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Gorgo7, on 26 January 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

I hear you, however the other poster asked for his credentials and then got them. It wasn't ego stroking to my eyes. In addition his pedigree certainly adds more weight to what he is saying then not. Talk to a soldier who has seen combat...not his mother if you want to know about it.

Actually three of my best friends are ex servicemen. A bit touchy as lately seen increasing amount of ego posting going on.

[DivineEvil]

Quote

Actually three of my best friends are ex servicemen. A bit touchy as lately seen increasing amount of ego posting going on.

Do we still have a problem here?

[Inkarnus]

nope need more bandaids

[Jon Gotham]

DivineEvil, on 27 January 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

Do we still have a problem here?

Nope,just responding to gorgo...other posts I reffed were by other people;) it is just something I hate to see.

[Jonathan Paine]

Dear Clanners. I notice another few pages of whining with no actual data or evidence for your claims have gone by, and I thought I'd weigh in on the "my poor cbills I am dying".

Try a 4 Ebon Jag drop deck. This deck does everything you need apart from ECM. Cost efficient since they are all pre-upgraded with endo/ferro/xl engine. Easy to level. Swiss army enough to do whatever builds from 3xuac5 dakka, to lurm spamming 80 missiles to 8xlaser vomit.

Ebon Jag, compact and deadly. Easily one of the best mechs in the game, with no negative quirks. None.

[Inkarnus]

Jonathan Paine, on 27 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

Dear Clanners. I notice another few pages of whining with no actual data or evidence for your claims have gone by, and I thought I'd weigh in on the "my poor cbills I am dying".

Dear guy that didnt even read most of this topic shut up with your trolling ty we had some numbers discussed and evidence too
but since you are so ignorant to post this ****. I dont reiterate them for you serach them beforehand -.-.

[Russhuster]

@Rushin Roulette

Now i see, when i ever should come to the sad situation of running out of reasonable facts i will try writing in extra big letters.
as these obiously replace and weigh more in a debate than a propper ine of reasoning.

In the 45 ton segment the BJ is simply the Robot with the most overpowered quirklist, even when you compare it with another IS Robot, not to speak a clan Robot so its not whining bit pointing out a Chassis that is destroying the balance

Yes the SCR is still a strong design but also has its worthy opponents in the quickdraw what is 5 only tons heavier
and even in a cent or Wolverine i can make a SCR sweat and suffer

in a whale with 4 UAC10 you are still lame and big as a house your Hitboxes large as Manhattan and your movement/Turining rate is just a joke

As for the 100 tonners what about the King Crab=? 4 UaC5 dakka 2 Las 2 SRM6
running cool solid build with a footlong quirklist and is really fun playing

As Long the IS 100Tonner gets as many Nerfs of mobility, heat Movement speed/ agility movment angle/Torso and Jaw as well as similar huge hitboxes,..hardcoded reactors braindead hardcoded interior and comparable buggy weapons -- why not?

Look nobody wants to be superior there, but viable
Just get a Direwhale and play it,.. You will look at the Kingcrab or the Atlas with different eyes
Compared to a Whale these are swift Ballerinas

[Memnon Valerius Thrax]

agree

[Tokimonatakanimekat]

Premade vs premade match outcome is about 95% based on skill and teamworking abilities.

As for pugfest, the biggest reason for poor clan win rate I see is abundance of trial mechs, which are half-useless, half-microwaves.

Many new/casual players don't have a full deck of customized clan mechs, and if they have - I wouldn't expect them to be mastered and packed with modules and consumables.
Usually, by the point a player gets mastered deck of shiny clanners - he will already be part of some active unit, unless he has hardcore case of "lone wolf" syndrome.

IS deck is about twice cheaper to both customize and master, so even week-from-tutorials player can afford one.