447 replies to this topic

[Autobot9000]

Clans just feel absurdly bad. When I left this game you were supposed to stay at range as clan pilot, IS mechs had the upper hand it close range. Now IS is stronger on all ranges, got quirks, that buff their armor into absurdity... If there are two evenly skilled teams (or just random puggies), IS side will win most of the time. You need to make some bad play if you lose as IS.

[Jonathan Paine]

Three days of playing Clan. No losses in CW. Easy to build mechs that can brawl, do range or even both at the same time. Lighter ballistics, better range, ridiculously light SRMS. And unless you decide on running a Whale (oh glorious dakka god!), so much speed.

Yes, the game lacks balance.
No, the clans are not underpowered.

[Autobot9000]

Jonathan Paine, on 17 January 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

Three days of playing Clan. No losses in CW. Easy to build mechs that can brawl, do range or even both at the same time. Lighter ballistics, better range, ridiculously light SRMS. And unless you decide on running a Whale (oh glorious dakka god!), so much speed.

Yes, the game lacks balance.
No, the clans are not underpowered.

Your post is outright wrong. IS mechs outrange clan mechs now, you have obviously no idea how the current game works.

[Joey Tankblaster]

Autobot9000, on 18 January 2016 - 01:30 AM, said:

Your post is outright wrong. IS mechs outrange clan mechs now, you have obviously no idea how the current game works.

This is not quite right.

First of all: Out of six maps only one is a true long range map, which is boreal. On Hellebore Springs sniping is possible from some positions but it is rather subtoptimal.

Lets talk about Boreal: Sniping on attack? No - never. You have stuff to do. Kill the objectives. Not enough time to play around with ER-LL/C-ER-LL. Sniping on defense - hell yes. But once the enemy manages to come close your sniper is dead.

Why? Because all IS ER-LL have a terrible sustained DPS. They might be quite durable due to their quirks but a brawl deck (doesn't matter whether Clan or IS) kills the sniping side all the time. All you have to do is push as a group on the snipers - eat the damage, twist, get close and kill them.

Second: Yes some IS-mechs outrange the clans. Some, not all. Max range on a Top Dog equipped with ER-LL plus Module is 911 meters. Max Range on a Hellbringer equipped with C-ER-LL plus Module is 814 meters. Thats not a big advantage. Damage-wise its probably the same at 900 meters. Anybody who complains about taking 2 damage points from an IS-LL at 1500+ meters is a freaking moron. Why dont you speed up, get close and that sniper?

Your whole argumentation that IS can outrange clans is true for one map, one playmode, when both parties play the same sniper tactic. Being a human means you can adapt your conduct.

You should give it a try.

[Der Hesse]

Autobot9000, on 18 January 2016 - 01:30 AM, said:

Your post is outright wrong. IS mechs outrange clan mechs now, you have obviously no idea how the current game works.

How does your argument that IS mechs outrange clans contradict what he said?

Also you argument is wrong. Some isolated single IS variants when absolutely dedicated for sniping can outrange clan mechs when comparing only ERLLs and CERLL.

That beeing said clan mechs in general outrange IS mechs because on a weapon to weapon basis nearly all clan weapon variants have more range then IS variants. Also i´m pretty sure you can still hit those IS snipers back with other weapons like gauss (didn´t calculate it but happened to me often enough and roughly calculated it should be possible to get them up to 2100 meters or more, which should be 300 meters more then the best ISLL build.).

So it´s you who obviously has no idea how the current game works.

[DivineEvil]

Der Hesse, on 18 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

How does your argument that IS mechs outrange clans contradict what he said?

Also you argument is wrong. Some isolated single IS variants when absolutely dedicated for sniping can outrange clan mechs when comparing only ERLLs and CERLL.

That beeing said clan mechs in general outrange IS mechs because on a weapon to weapon basis nearly all clan weapon variants have more range then IS variants. Also i´m pretty sure you can still hit those IS snipers back with other weapons like gauss (didn´t calculate it but happened to me often enough and roughly calculated it should be possible to get them up to 2100 meters or more, which should be 300 meters more then the best ISLL build.).

So it´s you who obviously has no idea how the current game works.

Denying the possibility is always easier, then actually trying to use it. Clan players got so used to their Laser Vomit, that anything what counters it is overpowered by definition.

And Gauss CD got increased (reducing it's DPS, not range), so it has to be useless, right? Uh, right?

[Jack Spade Ward]

Der Hesse, on 17 January 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

Sure, if we can find a date. Still have over 400 days premiumtime. How about mediums?

Tell you what, we do each class

[Female Body Inspector]

Joey Tankblaster, on 18 January 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

Second: Yes some IS-mechs outrange the clans. Some, not all. Max range on a Top Dog equipped with ER-LL plus Module is 911 meters. Max Range on a Hellbringer equipped with C-ER-LL plus Module is 814 meters. Thats not a big advantage. Damage-wise its probably the same at 900 meters. Anybody who complains about taking 2 damage points from an IS-LL at 1500+ meters is a freaking moron. Why dont you speed up, get close and that sniper?

Firstly anyone who makes a pure sniper nowadays isn't doing it right, you don't need more ERLL than your ghost heat will allow. This means you have spare tonnage to boat up on shorter range weapons for when the fight gets a little too close and personal.

This is a properly built Top Dog

It has a 27 damage pinpoint alpha at 911m, 42 at brawling range. It doesn't have the best DPS but it doesn't need it, it has a very good pinpoint, short burn time alpha damage.

When my unit did a short spell in the IS this was one of the Mechs I ran and I can tell you from experience that if I'm defending Boreal with that Mech I can literally stand as still as a statue and out trade a Hellbringer. I never stand still but I know that it's very possible and that's because 100m optimal makes a lot of difference. With that 100m+ range advantage the IS gets with some of its Mechs they can hold the enemy out of the gates and punish them if they do decide to move through. Most of my damage while playing IS on Boreal came while the enemy was pushing through the gate, I on several occasions, cored out CT's, blew off ST's, legged the unfortunate player and vaporized the pilot. Why? because 27 pinpoint alpha is a lot of damage at 900m+ and the fall off from firing past optimal range on Boreal is negligible when you have that extra max range. It might not seem much when you look at it but in practice it makes a big difference.

Now lets take a look at my favourite Hellbringer build;

Hellbringer built properly

As you can see it only has 2 ERLL, this is because there's no point bringing more than 2 because of ghost heat, you can bring 4 and fire in pairs but that leaves you open to getting shot back which in my opinion is a big no no. This means my Hellbringer can hold its own at any range, albeit less able to do so at IS ERLL range. I chose a TC 2 to squeeze out a little more optimal on my ERLL to try and close the gap a little but it still only has a 22 damage alpha at 838m optimal and a 50 alpha at brawling range. As you can see the Top Dog build trades close range alpha for long range alpha while my Hellbringer is more centred towards closer ranged engagements.

Now if I was to face myself on Boreal using both of my builds and my Top Dog was defending, by the time I pushed through the gate I'd be down to around 80-85%. I'd still have all my components because I know how to torso twist, 27 alpha isn't enough to core me out on a 1v1 basis at range but if you have several of these ERLL built ranged quirk monsters sniping mechs as they come through one of the gates there's not much anyone can do.

1 Lance of ERLL Vomit is 108 pinpoint damage a volley (if not breaking ghost heat using 3 ERLL), now we know that on Boreal at least 2/3 of the IS side will run ERLL so that's 216 pinpoint damage being spewed all over the Mechs pushing through the gate. Now obviously it's not going to remain 216 damage because everyone sits outside their optimal on Boreal when sniping a gate so for arguments sake let's say they are firing at 1350m which is roughly half way to their max range if using 25% range quirk. That's still 108 pinpoint damage from 8 Mechs at a range where my Hellbringer would only do about 13-14 damage. Now for arguments sake lets assume it's 12 vs 12 Top Dog vs Hellbringer at 1350m, Top Dogs will dish out 270 damage per volley, Hellbringers will dish out 168, that's a 100 point deficit.

Still think 100m optimal isn't much of a difference?

Edited by RaelM, 18 January 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Joey Tankblaster]

@RaelM

1. Typically you will boat ER-LL meaning Top Dog is build with 4 ER-LL fired in pairs, not 3 as you suppose - ever saw a BLR-1S with 3 ER-LL, no? Doesn't exist.

2. I am not denying that IS has a range advantage on some mechs. But that doesn't actually mean the whole playmode is bugged because one IS weapon has 100 meter more range than its counterpart on the clanside. Then I could simply argue the whole playmode is bugged because clanners do not die upon XL-sidetorso loss. Kind of flawed this argumentation.

3. This range advantage comes into play on one map out of 6 and It quickly becomes useless if the enemy knows how to counter it. This map is boreal (again one out of 6). As an attacker just follow the trench (d5/d6) and you are safe from long range fire.

4. Math is nice both nothing without practice. So no, I still think 100m optimal isn't much of a difference.

Edited by Joey Tankblaster, 18 January 2016 - 10:02 AM.

[Female Body Inspector]

Anyone building a Mech to be "efficient" will boat up on enough of a weapon type to avoid ghost heat. Especially if they know that the rest of their team is running similar loadouts and coordinating fire. Why fire a pair of ERLL's when you can fire 3 and have the rest of your team do the same, no need to cycle the weapons and it gives you the ability to brawl if they do make it past the ERLL Vomit.

I know that the average PUG will boat a Top Dog with 4 ERLL, that doesn't mean it's the most efficient way to load it out for CW. There are some instances when you want to boat up a weapon past ghost heat but the Top Dog isn't one of them in my opinion. 3 ERLL is more than enough especially in a coordinated group like I outlined in my example.

Have I made it past the gates and into the face of the IS ERLL spammers?
Yes.

Have I won against them in a brawl?
Yes

Have I been completely annihilated before making it to cover?
Yes when going up against coordinated groups because that much damage at that range with that much of a deficit is seriously broken when the IS players can coordinate that damage on 1 Mech at a time. If you believe that 100m optimal isn't a huge difference then you're obviously playing in uncoordinated groups or haven't played against a coordinated group that knows what they're doing.

It was the same when the Clans had the advantage before the quirks came out and PGI went nuts with it.

I've played as both IS and Clan in CW. I know from personal experience that 100m makes a huge difference, on both ends of the stick. I've had games in an X-5 doing 1900 damage with just that one mech, the same with the Top Dog, all because I exploited that 100m optimal knowing that 100m optimal = 200m max on ERLL. Allowing me to have constant favourable trades.

Now I never played my Clan mechs in CW before quirks, I was IS back then when Clan mechs had the major advantage but I did use my Timbie etc in Quick Play and the range advantage the Clans had allowed for easy victories just like the IS today because a significant range advantage will win 9/10.

The range advantage doesn't just come into play on 1 map of 6, you can snipe on Hellbore albeit not as well, Taiga again not as well but you can still make that range work (Dropship Hill for example.). That's 3 maps or 50% if you will. Sulphurous Rift, Portico and Forge are all to close range for that 100m optimal advantage to count.

[Adette]

RaelM, on 18 January 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

Anyone building a Mech to be "efficient" will boat up on enough of a weapon type to avoid ghost heat. Especially if they know that the rest of their team is running similar loadouts and coordinating fire. Why fire a pair of ERLL's when you can fire 3 and have the rest of your team do the same, no need to cycle the weapons and it gives you the ability to brawl if they do make it past the ERLL Vomit.

I know that the average PUG will boat a Top Dog with 4 ERLL, that doesn't mean it's the most efficient way to load it out for CW. There are some instances when you want to boat up a weapon past ghost heat but the Top Dog isn't one of them in my opinion. 3 ERLL is more than enough especially in a coordinated group like I outlined in my example.

Have I made it past the gates and into the face of the IS ERLL spammers?
Yes.

Have I won against them in a brawl?
Yes

Have I been completely annihilated before making it to cover?
Yes when going up against coordinated groups because that much damage at that range with that much of a deficit is seriously broken when the IS players can coordinate that damage on 1 Mech at a time. If you believe that 100m optimal isn't a huge difference then you're obviously playing in uncoordinated groups or haven't played against a coordinated group that knows what they're doing.

It was the same when the Clans had the advantage before the quirks came out and PGI went nuts with it.

I've played as both IS and Clan in CW. I know from personal experience that 100m makes a huge difference, on both ends of the stick. I've had games in an X-5 doing 1900 damage with just that one mech, the same with the Top Dog, all because I exploited that 100m optimal knowing that 100m optimal = 200m max on ERLL. Allowing me to have constant favourable trades.

Now I never played my Clan mechs in CW before quirks, I was IS back then when Clan mechs had the major advantage but I did use my Timbie etc in Quick Play and the range advantage the Clans had allowed for easy victories just like the IS today because a significant range advantage will win 9/10.

The range advantage doesn't just come into play on 1 map of 6, you can snipe on Hellbore albeit not as well, Taiga again not as well but you can still make that range work (Dropship Hill for example.). That's 3 maps or 50% if you will. Sulphurous Rift, Portico and Forge are all to close range for that 100m optimal advantage to count.

The reason that IS mechs typically boat 4x ERLL on the 25% energy range quirked mechs is because incurring that extra 1 LL ghost heat is actually pretty negligible, and you can always revert to firing 2/2 or 3/1 at any time.

[Female Body Inspector]

I know why they do it but I never found it was necessary since I knew the rest of my team was running ERLL as well. No point breaking ghost heat if everyone else is aiming at the same target with their own 3 ERLL. I'd rather sacrifice the extra ERLL for ML so I can better handle anyone that made it past the ERLL Vomit. It's better to build a more all round Mech than a specialized one when you're dropping in a 12 man, that way you're effective at all ranges but that's my opinion.

[Autobot9000]

Joey Tankblaster, on 18 January 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

This is not quite right.

First of all: Out of six maps only one is a true long range map, which is boreal. On Hellebore Springs sniping is possible from some positions but it is rather subtoptimal.

Uh, so you're trying to prove my statement "IS mechs outrange clan mechs" wrong by referring to maps? That's awkward. Please go ahead and describe to everyone how maps determine the stats of mechs.

Joey Tankblaster, on 18 January 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

Lets talk about Boreal: Sniping on attack? No - never. You have stuff to do. Kill the objectives. Not enough time to play around with ER-LL/C-ER-LL. Sniping on defense - hell yes. But once the enemy manages to come close your sniper is dead.

Why? Because all IS ER-LL have a terrible sustained DPS. They might be quite durable due to their quirks but a brawl deck (doesn't matter whether Clan or IS) kills the sniping side all the time. All you have to do is push as a group on the snipers - eat the damage, twist, get close and kill them.

People snipe all day long on many maps. Not everyone on a team is sitting in a Battlemaster or even Commando chassis with ER LLs, but the few that do are enough to force all clan mechs into cover. In brawling IS mechs absolutely slaughter clan mechs. They have pin point ballistics and better pulse lasers for brawling along with chassis, that have hefty buffs for hitpoints and pulse lasers / ACs. But that wasn't what I was talking about, it is just a truth, that specialization leads to victory in CW and IS has all the way better specializations, long and short range.

Joey Tankblaster, on 18 January 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

Why? Because all IS ER-LL have a terrible sustained DPS. They might be quite durable due to their quirks but a brawl deck (doesn't matter whether Clan or IS) kills the sniping side all the time. All you have to do is push as a group on the snipers - eat the damage, twist, get close and kill them.

But how is that relevant? Teams usually don't consist of entire snipe line ups. Theres rarely more than a few people sniping. Also pug teams rarely coordinate or let themselves be coordinated. Hence your tactical suggestion is irrelevant for most people. Lastly sustained DPS is again irrelevant for snipers. Snipers "poke" and fire their alphas, then go back for cooling as needed.

Joey Tankblaster, on 18 January 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

Second: Yes some IS-mechs outrange the clans. Some, not all. Max range on a Top Dog equipped with ER-LL plus Module is 911 meters. Max Range on a Hellbringer equipped with C-ER-LL plus Module is 814 meters. Thats not a big advantage. Damage-wise its probably the same at 900 meters. Anybody who complains about taking 2 damage points from an IS-LL at 1500+ meters is a freaking moron. Why dont you speed up, get close and that sniper?

Allow me to summarize that: First you try to distract from the actual topic, but then you admit I am actually right. At least you prove, that you as well can calculate basic numbers using addition and multiplication.

Joey Tankblaster, on 18 January 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

Your whole argumentation that IS can outrange clans is true for one map, one playmode, when both parties play the same sniper tactic. Being a human means you can adapt your conduct.

You should give it a try.

I may return the exchange of civilities here to you and advise you to at least attempt to act like a human being when responding to a post in a forum. Maybe then there will be more worthwhile to read in your posts as well.

[Autobot9000]

Der Hesse, on 18 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

Also you argument is wrong. Some isolated single IS variants when absolutely dedicated for sniping can outrange clan mechs when comparing only ERLLs and CERLL.

That is exactly what is the relevant part: It is enough that many chassis outrange them. They become hereby the dominant (sniping) mechs. Battlemasters, Stalkers, Quickdraws, Thunderbolts, Commandos, .... there is more than enough of them. In brawling clan mechs stand no chance. We could also run a reality check about brawling mechs, start with the Atlas DDC with 31 additional Ct structure etc? Or shall we try to best a medium pulse laser boating Thunderbolt?

Go ahead and explain how the hell clans are supposed to be played in this meta?There is no realistic situation, where they have an edge over IS mechs, unless you tell me, that you're supposed to stay above 300m, but below 330m (which is optimal for clan MPLs and not optimal for IS MPLs/MLs). Or are you arguing that 165m small pulse laser range is the edge, that clans need over a 110m IS small pulse laser? 55meters out of which 20 meters are eaten up by quirks, so remaining are like 35meters? Are you saying clan player should try to keep that 35 meter buffer? Are you serious? But please keep in mind, that IS pulse lasers have shorter duration and hence will be more efficient once they are in optimum range. Is that what you're arguing, giving on the range competition clans 30m and the rest of the 1.25 km to the IS faction? Or are you saying the last remaining weapon for clans is the large pulse laser, so clanners must stay at 600ish distance, but no centimeter further to avoid being shred by snipers? Explain how you are going to play on most CW maps like Sulfurus rifts, Vitric forge, grim portico or emerald taiga?

Der Hesse, on 18 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

That beeing said clan mechs in general outrange IS mechs because on a weapon to weapon basis nearly all clan weapon variants have more range then IS variants. Also i´m pretty sure you can still hit those IS snipers back with other weapons like gauss (didn´t calculate it but happened to me often enough and roughly calculated it should be possible to get them up to 2100 meters or more, which should be 300 meters more then the best ISLL build.).

It seems you still have not yet familiarized yourself with the quirk system. You may wanna checkout range buffs like 15% or 25% or even 40% more energy range on the commando. Then you may wanna run a reality check and see if half decent players use any mechs, but those with the best quirks.

Der Hesse, on 18 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

So it´s you who obviously has no idea how the current game works.

Can't see how you derive with that conclusion, but ignorance is bliss, cheers!

Edited by Autobot9000, 18 January 2016 - 01:31 PM.

[Kieva]

You guys are focusing too much on the range quirks. The 1500m poke is ridiculous on its own, because nowhere ever in any MechWarrior game before, could you reach out and poke someone over 1000m, as I seem to recall.

On it's own, the range isn't the biggest issue. It's when it's combined with the number 1 issue right now. Structure Quirks. The other thing about that Top Dog vs Hellbringer comparison, is it takes a significantly lower amount of damage to drop the Hellbringer. What ends up happening, is not only do they hit farther, they drop their target faster because of both decreased burn time. Recycle starts sooner, therefore sooner repeat. Furthermore, if your mech has heat quirks, you can keep doing this over and over, while the unquirked, heatsink nerfed clan mechs run up their heat and have to wait for a long burn time.

Someone earlier mentioned that face time in MWO is something that is vital to reduce for survival. If you ask most of us clans players, that's why we ran Gauss like it was blood in our veins. It was our long range effective weapon that could combat the IS excessive range builds. When the gauss rifle got the ferocious nerf bat of doom that it didn't need, Clans were weakened further.

My Timberwolf Prime actually is built to counter to the best of its ability. It has 2 Er-PPCs, and 4 Small pulse. Minimized face time with opponents while maximizing DPS actually makes it fan-freaking-tastic in CW. Except for the very underpowered PPC's it's a great load out. The problem in this thing lies in the damage per heat. The 2.5 splash to the left and right is probably the most unfair thing to do to a weapon in a game.

The mech wouldn't be at all viable if not for the 14 heat sinks.

Consider that while you argue that my Mechs aren't broken in half by PGI's Inner Sphere focused Mech preference.

[Joey Tankblaster]

Think we can stop arguing here because we won't agree on common position. While some of you believe that range quirks (plus structure quirks) bugged CW let me stretch out one more point.

Before those quirk passes IS units faced exactly this problem being outranged (especially on boreal) by clanners. Boreal was nearly impossible to win when our unit and other steiner all stars unit tried to trade damage over range. So we changed our tactics, closed in quickly using brawl mechs and suddenly we increased our chances by a huge margin.

So basically clanners now get the same medicine IS had to taste for months in CW beta phase one and two. No mercy with you guys. Live with it as we did.

Edited by Joey Tankblaster, 19 January 2016 - 12:53 AM.

[Der Hesse]

Autobot9000, on 18 January 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

That is exactly what is the relevant part: It is enough that many chassis outrange them. They become hereby the dominant (sniping) mechs. Battlemasters, Stalkers, Quickdraws, Thunderbolts, Commandos, .... there is more than enough of them. In brawling clan mechs stand no chance. We could also run a reality check about brawling mechs, start with the Atlas DDC with 31 additional Ct structure etc? Or shall we try to best a medium pulse laser boating Thunderbolt?

Go ahead and explain how the hell clans are supposed to be played in this meta?There is no realistic situation, where they have an edge over IS mechs, unless you tell me, that you're supposed to stay above 300m, but below 330m (which is optimal for clan MPLs and not optimal for IS MPLs/MLs). Or are you arguing that 165m small pulse laser range is the edge, that clans need over a 110m IS small pulse laser? 55meters out of which 20 meters are eaten up by quirks, so remaining are like 35meters? Are you saying clan player should try to keep that 35 meter buffer? Are you serious? But please keep in mind, that IS pulse lasers have shorter duration and hence will be more efficient once they are in optimum range. Is that what you're arguing, giving on the range competition clans 30m and the rest of the 1.25 km to the IS faction? Or are you saying the last remaining weapon for clans is the large pulse laser, so clanners must stay at 600ish distance, but no centimeter further to avoid being shred by snipers? Explain how you are going to play on most CW maps like Sulfurus rifts, Vitric forge, grim portico or emerald taiga?


It seems you still have not yet familiarized yourself with the quirk system. You may wanna checkout range buffs like 15% or 25% or even 40% more energy range on the commando. Then you may wanna run a reality check and see if half decent players use any mechs, but those with the best quirks.


Can't see how you derive with that conclusion, but ignorance is bliss, cheers!

Did you miss the part where i showed you that Clans can outrange those Snipers?

Your examples are selected badly. And your argumentation lacks causality.

Who the heck is using that commando? I´ve never seen even one in CW. What do you want to do with one erll in that thing in cw? The match will be over before you even killed a single mech on max range with that.Why the heck would you use cmpl? I also don´t see them to be used in cw. You are trying to compare worst clan equipment with best is equipment how do you think i should be able to take that seriously. And no, the clpl is not the only remaining clan weapon. Did you ever try to use csrm or cuac? If not do it and don´t just rely on laser vomit.

And saying that clan mechs stand no chance in brawling is just as wrong as your other arguments. You may just use the wrong weapons. If you try to win against a 7 mpl thunderbolt in a brawl under 300m then you are just doing it wrong. As wrong as said thunderbolt would do it if he tried to win against clpl/gauss builds between 300 and 600m.
That´s a 300m range for both where they can excel. The clan mech in this example has the advantage that he can still hit as bad as on 600m when he goes into the range of the thunderbolt. The thunderbolt can´t do that. Therefore the thunderbolt typically runs cooler because of better heatsinks and is more durable (debatable for most mechs because of the still crazy clan xl).

What i want to show you with this is that both sides have their advantages and disadvantages. Both sides have playstiles where they can excel and such where they will fail. That´s also a kind of balancing. Hard to get the balancing right this way then just trying to make all mechs equal. But everybody wanted different player experience for clan tech. So here it is.

But to say IS is op is just plain wrong atm. In my opinion we have something like tech balance for the first time in MWO.

And regarding your lst sentence....talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

[AtomCore]

I would say clans (in CW) are in deep **** now.
Almost all units left clans for IS, cause clans heavies are uncomparable to 80-90 IS tonners.

[Der Hesse]

AtomCore, on 19 January 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

I would say clans (in CW) are in deep **** now.
Almost all units left clans for IS, cause clans heavies are uncomparable to 80-90 IS tonners.

Even if this would be true....should they be comparable?

[Inkarnus]

Der Hesse, on 19 January 2016 - 12:58 AM, said:

Did you miss the part where i showed you that Clans can outrange those Snipers?

Your examples are selected badly. And your argumentation lacks causality.

Who the heck is using that commando? I´ve never seen even one in CW. What do you want to do with one erll in that thing in cw? The match will be over before you even killed a single mech on max range with that.Why the heck would you use cmpl? I also don´t see them to be used in cw. You are trying to compare worst clan equipment with best is equipment how do you think i should be able to take that seriously. And no, the clpl is not the only remaining clan weapon. Did you ever try to use csrm or cuac? If not do it and don´t just rely on laser vomit.

And saying that clan mechs stand no chance in brawling is just as wrong as your other arguments. You may just use the wrong weapons. If you try to win against a 7 mpl thunderbolt in a brawl under 300m then you are just doing it wrong. As wrong as said thunderbolt would do it if he tried to win against clpl/gauss builds between 300 and 600m.
That´s a 300m range for both where they can excel. The clan mech in this example has the advantage that he can still hit as bad as on 600m when he goes into the range of the thunderbolt. The thunderbolt can´t do that. Therefore the thunderbolt typically runs cooler because of better heatsinks and is more durable (debatable for most mechs because of the still crazy clan xl).

What i want to show you with this is that both sides have their advantages and disadvantages. Both sides have playstiles where they can excel and such where they will fail. That´s also a kind of balancing. Hard to get the balancing right this way then just trying to make all mechs equal. But everybody wanted different player experience for clan tech. So here it is.

But to say IS is op is just plain wrong atm. In my opinion we have something like tech balance for the first time in MWO.

And regarding your lst sentence....talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Yeah why the heck would you use on of the only laser weapon in clan tech next to to the small pulse laser with the lowest burntimes and one of the better heat per damage ratios. Man i wonder why. MB because everything in IS is so Overquircked it is useless basically.

No freaking mech should get a free win vs any other just because he gets to a certain range != balance get that in your head. Clans are forced to be poke snipers because its the last role where there are atleast semi competitive. There is a reason why meta mechs only list the TBR Snipers as Tier 1 next to quickdraws and bjs that are midrange or brawlers.
The other point is that i dare to advocate that Most IS sniper can do better than these TBR snipers easy because of insane quirks and or structure buffs.

Der Hesse, on 19 January 2016 - 12:58 AM, said:

"What i want to show you with this is that both sides have their advantages and disadvantages"

with comparing apples with oranges great man how about you compare apples with apples?
Clan doesnt have:
-brawl advantage
-range advantage
-efficency advantage (burntimes are lower for IS)
-heat advantage
-structure advantage
- Agillity advantage
- speed advantage (most cw mechs i know of are 80-100 fast if they are not a base defense sniper)

izee CLaMs OP QQ. Get real man. Even if you look at the perpetrator chassis they are not even balanced inside of there own Race (IS). Basically the last skilltree nerf man was a joke. some IS assaults get compensation clams OP they dont need that.
And you have then mechs like the now ballerinaesq Atlas that can turn and twist like a medium AND get structure quirks because obviously they couldnt spread damge before )))))) cause clam burntimes arent high enough lawl. Now every noob can use an atlas basically declassing it as a NOOBTUBE and a blatant obvious one at that. Most dont even torso twist :3333.

Edited by Inkarnus, 19 January 2016 - 06:18 AM.