447 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Inkarnus, on 24 January 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

Member Since 08 Apr 2015 ah okay :3 i wondered why somebody is ignorant at max level a twink.
how about this deal i go and leave your cw up to you until PGI will take action. there are other games craving for players.
If you dont need yours hell yeah. like the rest bye. Cy in games where they actually care about remote resemblance of balance
or there playerbase instead of pushing there marketing deals infront of balancing and making it even THAT obvious.

To all those mocking Inkarnus post above...
He isn't claiming that he is leaving. Rather he is pointing to my incept date on the forums to illustrate my ignorance of all things CW as compared to his more lordly time dating to 2012. I don't believe he is saying that he should leave, but rather that I and other IS pilots who are content to let PGI fix the remaining balance issues should leave. I think.

In any case, for all the current Clan whining, other than pointing out to PGI what you perceive to be the imbalance issues what do you propose to do?

In my posts on this subject I have consistently agreed that there is imbalance which needs to be addressed, I simply disagree with the trend on this thread and others from Clan players who will point to 1 or 2 mechs and say essentially because these are imbalanced EVERYTHING IS IMBALANCED AND UNPLAYABLE!!!! Your insistence that clan players just quit isn't going to do much if you believe that "PGI hates Clan" as many of you have asserted. All that will do is give us filthy "battletech" fans the succession war style game we wanted originally. So good luck with that. If you want PGI or any one else to buy what you are selling you need to do more than post a good game with a specific chassis and say SEE! Or in the post immediately above say in effect "GMAN says some mechs are really good therefore UNPLAYABLE IMBALANCE!"

Is all the kvetching here really just a top tier competitive thing? I ask in all seriousness. Maybe those who see balance as pretty close vs those who see it as utterly unbearable are simply just seeing two different game experiences? Cuz I tell ya, in the underhive pug matches and even in CW with groups I just don't see ANY of the mechs you all are pointing to as being game breakers dominating the game let alone carrying a match or even a push.

Edited by Bud Crue, 25 January 2016 - 05:30 AM.

[DivineEvil]

Quote

To all those mocking Inkarnus post above...
He isn't claiming that he is leaving. Rather he is pointing to my incept date on the forums to illustrate my ignorance of all things CW as compared to his more lordly time dating to 2012. I don't believe he is saying that he should leave, but rather that I and other IS pilots who are content to let PGI fix the remaining balance issues should leave. I think.

It's irrelevant. There's people *wink-wink*, who seems to joined the game or made an account simply to argue with me, yet I do not deny their opinion on that accord. It has nothing to do with arguments presented. On the other hand, I'm almost just as an old-blood here as @Gman129, yet people seems to ignore that fact entirely, which I'm fine with.

Like I've said before, by the most degree, IS players stood here despite being severely outmatched by pre-nerf Clan Omni's for a whole year. Maybe Clan players should try and show some pride, rather than crying like little girls over two-three mechs with underestimated quirks, and thinking it's enough to make the case for Clan CW being unplayable. Again, Clan players used to dominate simply by having superior mechs, while IS improved significantly while fighting against them. Clans easily shoved away any and every weapon requiring any significant leading skills or introducing strict limitations, and every mech, that required either working around a disadvantage, involving risk or requiring any cooperation beyond standing in 500 meters from a group.

Now they have it roughly even, and since they generally have non-existent adaptation experience (safe for an actual competetive units, who currently play CW as Clans and working their way to figure out new rules of the game), it is only natural for them to argue that "Clan CW side is unplayable", because Omnimechs no longer win games by laser-vomiting everything left and right.

Edited by DivineEvil, 25 January 2016 - 05:12 AM.

[Maximus Wolf]

@DivineEvil,

Okay, may be it's only me, but I think you got it all wrong. Let me tell you a little bit more about myself: I was among the founders and played MWO for about two years long before CW and gauss charge-up mechanism. Right about clan invasion I vanished from game and gave away my account. Now with steam release I have returned as clansman. And here's what I see without all the history off "clans were decimating us for years" and blah blah blah:

• It's not a mechwarrior game any more. It was while there were no clans. But now it's big stompy robots, not a Mechwarrior.
  
• Clan tech was always superior, it the way it should be. Both in lore and other games.
  
• There are other ways to make party equal besides nerfing what should be supreme.
  
• What the point of paying x2-3 price for mech, if they are equal?
  
• Last weekend I've installed and played for couple of days good old fashioned MW4 Mercs (MekTek 3.1) and it felt way more MechWarrior game than MWO even given the fact that it's 15-years old game. Gosh, I love those hardpoints.

I admit, that there are a lot of things where clans have pure advantage (especially in ER-SL, I just love them), I don't deny the truth. I just want things different and I have feeling that game is going the opposite direction of what it should be.

Edited by Maximus Wolf, 25 January 2016 - 05:48 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Maximus Wolf, on 25 January 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

• What the point of paying x2-3 price for mech, if they are equal?

Yet another clanner misconception: Show me a clan mech that costs 2 times (let alone 3 times) as much as a comparable IS mech after both mechs have been upgraded to their respective meta builds.

Clan mechs are only initially more expensive to purchase. After purchase, the only thing which needs changing is the weapons and some of the equipment. IS mechs nearly always need larger engines, DHS upgrades and ES at a minimum. After all changes, the advantage the IS have is maybe 10-15% less overall.

In the end, if a clan mech goes on sale (Such as is happening now for many), the price difference is negated and even turned around.

[Inkarnus]

i would not argue that Clams can always fully reach the 2x value,but it is near that 2x value, especially if you hord engines and dont need to buy them on IS side. Or just dont invest in chassis you dont want to have just to level them.
In clans YOU ALWAYS need to pay upfront engines and upgrades even if you full on plan to just basic out and sell a variant.
Additional you cant keep the Engines seperated from the chassis too, if you decide to sell redundant or not needed chassi variants.

example
Atlas
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...51dffd2cb6608da
13.552.742 (sold base engine), 11.406.075 (spare 350STD)
Direwolf
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f269f9709a7963a
20.208.496 (with additional omnipods)

TDR-9SE
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b3c3fe016a78e6c
8.737.821 (sold base engine), 6.928.488 (spare 295STD)

Abridged version for cheapness
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...420edde74b94380
7,197,993

Ebon jag
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...866a830fb59843f
14,521,764
HBR
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0b8fdedbb31b694
~15,491,417


Clans have a higher pay tax for leveling mechs and the base cost for f2p player is huge.
The IS has cheaper base chassis that you can upgrade to your liking and always keep the engines and not lose huge amounts on selling XL engines are nice. IS side is far more forgiving Cbill wise for a beginner if you setup a smart purchase plan up. Even if not, the abillity to just level all variants cheap by not buying upgrades and just invest in a selected chassi variant is a great perk too.

additional only Clans are the TRUE F2p faction obviously there needs to be content gating by prices.
to get players to buy all these tasty IS herobuckets. That are made especially to superseed some of the basevariants features(slight form of P2w)

Its obvious that player wonder why they need to pay so much for if they get hammered by cheap is mechs since PGI indirect communicate Cbills invested = power acquired .

hope you all have now enough popcorn for a while. I hope to deliver popcorn always since MW2 days.
See you on the battlefield Mechwarrior.

Edited by Inkarnus, 25 January 2016 - 09:57 AM.

[ch3sn0k]

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Wrong. Gauss had DPS slightly lower, than IS-AC/10. Longer range wasnt the advantage, that was taken use of, which is why it wasnt adressed in the least. It was it's inexisting heat with pin-point damage without UAC jamming faults. Gauss was combined with varied types of lasers on any Omnimech, that was capable of mounting one, to provide undefeatable combination capable of being used on any range whatsoever. That was not an intended method of using it, thus it's cooldown were nerfed, although too strictly, which is why that nerf was dialed back a little.
Still, it's a weapon, that would easily counter ERLL simply due to double falloff range and pin-point damage output, IF Clans were to actually think a little and would stop depending solely on the same loadouts, for every map, for every combat-mode, against every opponent. I'm personally using Gauss as IS player to counter these very ER-LLs metafags and couldn't be happier about the results.

Gauss is 12 tons + ammo. Thats a CLPL plus six double heat sinks. CLPL deals less damage per shot, but it is by orders of magnitude easier to deal damage with, just as pinpoint and does not require ammo. How can a sane person use a GR in it's place? Or better yet, try to use a charging up gauss to compete with instahit ERLL snipers, or even IS gauss snipers like Jagermechs with their high mounts.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Target Retention counters Radar Deprivations, BAP counters ECM, and if your team does not spotting enemies they're fighting, then you're not in a team you should be no matter what your weapons are. Firing LRMs on enemy snipers from afar is not needed to damage them - it's to force them into cover, after which your teammates can abuse them by focusing fire as they reemerge. And if your team got in close with those snipers (which counters them by default), while wielding BAP/CAP, ECM is utterly useless, and you can shower them to their demise.

Firing LRMs does not force anyone into anything. The sniper still fires off his lasers and goes back behind cover.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Unlike QP, CW is not a mode for bragging about damage. The objective is to win no matter what, working as a team. I'm playing CW with my unit for as long as it were there, and don't bother if it requires me to tank damage on the frontline dealing total 1000-1200 damage for all four waves, as long as my peers do the damage while safe from focus fire. If you only care about your damage and kills in CW, then you're not in a state to fully understand just How Much MWO is a teamwork game.

So you took an LRM loadout and were useless in a straight up fight, and didn't use your armor to spread damage from your teammates to boot. How is this teamwork?

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Which is eactly what you do, when you're instead spending those 10+ tons on Lasers, that spread damage even more.

At least with lasers you have a fighting chance instead of trying to peashoot your way though armored and structure quirked side torsi.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

I'm not even gonna talk about how many IS mechs can actually turn their movement into an advantage to begin with.

I just love the hypocrisy of that statement. How many clan mechs have a humanoid profile with small CT, high side torso mounts and shielding arms? Summoner? Hellbringer? Executioner? Gargoyle? Oh wait, they all suck, big surprise.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

For least, CUAC/5 bursts are so fast, that moving or twisting makes no difference as long as I care where I shoot. UAC/10s, very little, and I care more about it's raw damage output and supression factor much more. UAC/20, sure, but still it's a dual AC/20 stuck into one AC/10 of tonnage by potential burst damage.

No they are not. Lateral target movement pretty much halves your damage output.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

All your problems are arising from the apparent idea, that you should judge and choose weapons by their disadvantages. That is just a silly approach.

Opponent will use your weapons' disadvantages to the fullest.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Perhaps. People care too much for what they see, and too less for what they're actually doing, relying too much on the netcode. When you abstract yourself from looking at projectiles and hits and pay attention to what effect your shots do, then you'd learn how to use a projectile weapon correctly.

I see the projectile hit the mech and see no damage dealt on the display. Or I see the red hit indicator and see no damage dealt. Or I see the slow as hell movement speed of the projectile which pretty much makes it useless to try and outrange pulse lasers with it.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Because I can only effectively argue from my experience. I use stuff, my unit uses stuff, my opponents are using stuff, streamers are using stuff. I see all of it and build my opinion on how people use stuff and what it leads to. What people do not use is irrevelant for me, because it's an indication for nothing. For example, someone who'd argue for Gauss being useless, especially based on charge-up mechanic, is likely haven't used it consistently for at least half-a-year. My "extraordinary" experience is but an example, that someone can make extraordinary things with weapons, that others consider inferior and incompetetive.

My, and many others' opinion happens to be the opposite.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Have I ever told, that a medium laser fights CW alone? There's no weapon in the game, that might fight CW alone - neither mediums, nor large pulses, no ER larges. There's a counter for everything. Sometimes there's a new trend. Weak people follow the trend. Strong people fight the trend. Sometimes that creates a new trend.

Blah-blah-blah. PGI has nerfed everything in clans' toolbox. Might as well finish the job and slap the last remaining decent chassis' with negative quirks or more vital systems like locked in jump jets and MASC.

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

It was a problem of high-alpha laser-vomit being abused severely.

Which is exactly what IS mechs are doing now. quod licet jovi, non licet bovi

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Anyone should try to fight in their optimum range. Clans can snipe and can brawl. Again, it's not the question of what Clan range beats same IS range. It's a question of, what range beats sniping, what beats brawlers, what beats light rushes, what beats assault pushes, etc. Again, your approach is simplistic to the point of being self-defeating.

Specialization always beats general purpose. Right now IS is much better at brawling and much better at sniping. And all CW maps have an abundance of cover, most fights are decided at 200-400m. How are clans supposed to compete again? By outskilling level design?

Edited by ch3sn0k, 25 January 2016 - 10:43 AM.

[hybrid black]

Kieva, on 27 December 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:

So, let me first set the scene for this post. Tonight I dropped 3 matches in CW. Tonight we got roflstomped 3 times with a 12-man, by a mixed bag of FRR. We were (mostly) organized, focusing fire, and we were mostly getting crushed.

This game is NOT balanced for CW right now, and you Inny surrats need to stop crying about IS being underpowered, because the reality is that the Clans are now so badly nerfed and out-tonned, and so full of poorly trained pugs, that if you'll notice, every single clan faction is being pushed back to their home planet.

I don't care what is changed, but some of the debuffing of the clans needs to be backed off. This change needs to happen VERY soon, because it has lost all of its fun for those of us that are playing on Clan side.

I'm pretty frustrated right now, so I'm having a hard time giving rationalized points to why this is, but this game should be fun, not frustrating, simple point, to explain a simple thing.

With these 12 mans, I haven't won a single match since the 'balance' adjustment.

Has it ever crossed your mind you are just bad at the game?

[Russhuster]

@Rushin Roulette

FALSE
Most Clan mechs DONT have Endo and FFB those have are the TBR ACH; SCR EBJ,.. other underperforming mechs have not like the Summoner, EXE or the Gargoyle but cost equal
so your Attempt of telling us a whopper is nothing but blahblahBullshit

[Charles Sennet]

The CW map speaks for itself. It did so when Clans marched to Terra (before the balance pass) and it does now with all the Clans being pushed back to their home worlds. If you argue that this is due to many units switching to IS... and not because of the current imbalance... why is that? Answer: IS is the new meta. Too many hit points and too high DPS on one side is a bad combination for a game that forces close-proximity objective-taking.

The map doesn't lie. That's all the evidence you should need of imbalance.

As the Khan of Clan Diamond Shark, I have drop commanded more than 1,500 CW matches. My unit (DSx) has figured out how to counter and win in CW versus organized teams. I can tell you that most teams won't be able to figure it out and will bail -- either leave Clans (as many have) or leave the game entirely.

[Clan Diamond Shark has recently moved to CGB to aid that corridor]

Edited by Charles Sennet, 25 January 2016 - 11:22 AM.

[Puraaj]

Bud Crue, on 24 January 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

For the most part I think balance is close. If I were king for a day I would tone down the Black Jack structure quirks (just to shut down the whining if nothing else, for while I agree they are too tough at the moment I don't see them as game braking). I would also tone back the ERLL or up the Clan version so that they are equal or even give the Clans a slight edge. But yeah I do think we have pretty close balance.

*snip*

To me, the current state is no different than oh...lets see...the entire last YEAR before the most recent nerf/buff pass when all the IS folks were complaining about OP Timberwolf, Dire, Hellbringer, etc. During that time those of you not suffering from selective amnesia might recall when the clans dominated the map and wolf (via MS) had surrounded Terra. Remember that? Remember both Tukayyid events? Was all that because IS was OP? No. Back then when the IS folks would whine about OP clans, they were met with howls of "git gud" and "learn to play" almost universally by claners. But PGI did indeed try and fix some of those balance issues, and they will continue to do so. But I can't imagine it will be enough to satisfy the current crop of whiners. You will still point to this mech (the Black Knight, the Quickdraw, for the love of....), or that mech and howl "IS is OP they have the Vindicator! Lets all quit!!!!

*snip*

without taking sides, you know you arent making sense right?
We got balance people! <> the state is the same as a year ago where the clans were op!

So which is it?

what im getting from what you are saying is : well, we were getting smashed cause the balance was off so now its your turn! suck it up and deal with it. and to be frank that is a very childish position

Edited by Puraaj, 25 January 2016 - 01:24 PM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Rushin Roulette, on 25 January 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

Yet another clanner misconception: Show me a clan mech that costs 2 times (let alone 3 times) as much as a comparable IS mech after both mechs have been upgraded to their respective meta builds.

Clan mechs are only initially more expensive to purchase. After purchase, the only thing which needs changing is the weapons and some of the equipment. IS mechs nearly always need larger engines, DHS upgrades and ES at a minimum. After all changes, the advantage the IS have is maybe 10-15% less overall.

In the end, if a clan mech goes on sale (Such as is happening now for many), the price difference is negated and even turned around.

Yep, you are right!
Clan mechs should even be more expensive! For example, a Timber should cost around 25 million C-Bills, and it costs only 15 million. That was because it is an omni mech, better technology and overalll better.
But, the problem is, it is not, or i should i say, worse!
If PGI would unnerf clan tech and mechs, maybe those prices would be just right

[Bud Crue]

Puraaj, on 25 January 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

without taking sides, you know you arent making sense right?
We got balance people! <> the state is the same as a year ago where the clans were op!

So which is it?

what im getting from what you are saying is : well, we were getting smashed cause the balance was off so now its your turn! suck it up and deal with it. and to be frank that is a very childish position

I'm making as much sense as those of you pointing to the frigging Black Knight of all things as an example of an "OP IS mech" and then concluding based on that mech (or some other mech) that because some mechs have quircks ALL CLAN PLAYERS SHOULD QUIT! or whatever the various posters above are whining. My point is that you are being no more rationale with this sort of half-baked, causationaly challenged "reasoning" as when the IS players were whining about OP clan mechs.

I am for all intent and purpose agreeing with you Clanners that certain aspects of the game are off and need to be fixed. But your extreme "the sky is falling" rhetoric is both absurd and stupid...yet you accuse my point of view as being childish?

PGI has made it abundantly clear that balance is a work in progress. They will address your concerns about specific mechs (its only been two months, we had to wait a year for fixes). But if you and your are so convinced that the only solution to a Black Jack having extra structure, or a Black Knight firing into the ground like too tall Nova, is to quit, then don't let the door hit you in the ***.

Edited by Bud Crue, 25 January 2016 - 01:37 PM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

ch3sn0k, on 25 January 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Gauss is 12 tons + ammo. Thats a CLPL plus six double heat sinks. CLPL deals less damage per shot, but it is by orders of magnitude easier to deal damage with, just as pinpoint and does not require ammo. How can a sane person use a GR in it's place? Or better yet, try to use a charging up gauss to compete with instahit ERLL snipers, or even IS gauss snipers like Jagermechs with their high mounts.


Firing LRMs does not force anyone into anything. The sniper still fires off his lasers and goes back behind cover.


So you took an LRM loadout and were useless in a straight up fight, and didn't use your armor to spread damage from your teammates to boot. How is this teamwork?


At least with lasers you have a fighting chance instead of trying to peashoot your way though armored and structure quirked side torsi.


I just love the hypocrisy of that statement. How many clan mechs have a humanoid profile with small CT, high side torso mounts and shielding arms? Summoner? Hellbringer? Executioner? Gargoyle? Oh wait, they all suck, big surprise.


No they are not. Lateral target movement pretty much halves your damage output.


Opponent will use your weapons' disadvantages to the fullest.


I see the projectile hit the mech and see no damage dealt on the display. Or I see the red hit indicator and see no damage dealt. Or I see the slow as hell movement speed of the projectile which pretty much makes it useless to try and outrange pulse lasers with it.


My, and many others' opinion happens to be the opposite.


Blah-blah-blah. PGI has nerfed everything in clans' toolbox. Might as well finish the job and slap the last remaining decent chassis' with negative quirks or more vital systems like locked in jump jets and MASC.


Which is exactly what IS mechs are doing now. quod licet jovi, non licet bovi



Specialization always beats general purpose. Right now IS is much better at brawling and much better at sniping. And all CW maps have an abundance of cover, most fights are decided at 200-400m. How are clans supposed to compete again? By outskilling level design?

Can i advise you?
Just ignore Divine Evil and Gas Guzler, both IS-fan-boys trolls. Cant be argued with. Refuse to see the evidences, specially that video above, where all competitive players banded toghther to play some matches and see how imbalanced the game is. That video is all the proof one should need, but if that cant be a proof to those guys, just ignore them

@ Divine Evil and Gas Guzler, when you guys get to be T1 and be amongst competitive units and people, then your opinion should be considered, until there, do eveyone a favor, get better at the game.

[Puraaj]

Bud Crue, on 25 January 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

I'm making as much sense as those of you pointing to the frigging Black Knight of all things as an example of an "OP IS mech" and then concluding based on that mech (or some other mech) that because some mechs have quircks ALL CLAN PLAYERS SHOULD QUIT! or whatever the various posters above are whining. My point is that you are being no more rationale with this sort of half-baked, causationaly challenged "reasoning" as when the IS players were whining about OP clan mechs.

I am for all intent and purpose agreeing with you Clanners that certain aspects of the game are off and need to be fixed. But your extreme "the sky is falling" rhetoric is both absurd and stupid...yet you accuse my point of view as being childish?

PGI has made it abundantly clear that balance is a work in progress. They will address your concerns about specific mechs (its only been two months, we had to wait a year for fixes). But if you and your are so convinced that the only solution to a Black Jack having extra structure, or a Black Knight firing into the ground like too tall Nova, is to quit, then don't let the door hit you in the ***.

re read my post, the first line in particular, i see a lot of stuff directed at me and "my ilk" i clearly stated i have no opinion on the balance matter, i'm merely pointing out you argue for and then directly against the idea of there being balance.
I havent played enough since i got back to form an informed opinion on the matter.
and yea, your point of suck it up cause we had to deal with it IS childish.

[DivineEvil]

Maximus Wolf, on 25 January 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

It's not a mechwarrior game any more. It was while there were no clans. But now it's big stompy robots, not a Mechwarrior.

That depends solely on your own, subjective meaning of a "Mechwarrior game". Mind me, I've never were involved with table-top, neither I were interested by Battletech novels, but I've experienced the most Mechwarrior games, and most things, which differentiate MWO from them, would make it even harder to play if implemented. By my standards it is, so I only left to wonder by which categories you consider it not being as such.

Quote

Clan tech was always superior, it the way it should be. Both in lore and other games.

Again, it's PGI's concern what should or shoud not be what. By lore and other games, Clan-tech was superior to stock models of IS mechs, and were ever defeated by the amount of dead bodies and dirty tricks thrown at them. None of that is an acceptable approach for MWO. In MWO highly-optimized Clan Mechs are fought by Mercenaries with maximized IS technology, and in CW only used to disable planetary defenses, so that conventional forces can be deployed on a planet.

Clan-tech was superior because it were given to single player for crushing AI opponents. This will never ever work with other live players.

Quote

There are other ways to make party equal besides nerfing what should be supreme.

Yeah yeah, 12v10 an sh*t. It's not gonna happen. Very few would agree to play with a faction, each player of which worth less, than in another faction. It will also be impossible to balance.

Unless you're talking about buffing IS internal properties instead, which I've argued for since last March. Barely a single clanner saw a value in what I proposed, even though I've did and do it for their good. It leaves me disappointed in them.

Quote

What the point of paying x2-3 price for mech, if they are equal?

Clan mechs worth the same as IS mechs. Is only can get higher returns by selling variants of Mechs, while Clans can have a single frame with all the omnipods, selling duplicate frames and omnipods to their heart's content - they still retain full customization options in a single Mechbay. Clan Omnis, that has fewer Upgrades installed, also worth less to buy.

Quote

Last weekend I've installed and played for couple of days good old fashioned MW4 Mercs (MekTek 3.1) and it felt way more MechWarrior game than MWO even given the fact that it's 15-years old game. Gosh, I love those hardpoints.

Good for you. What's the point?

Quote

I admit, that there are a lot of things where clans have pure advantage (especially in ER-SL, I just love them), I don't deny the truth. I just want things different and I have feeling that game is going the opposite direction of what it should be.

And yet you cannot readily tell what exactly you want it to be. I can write a 5 page thesis of what should be done and why, but I've already did that in some places.

You all just ramble about how Clan mechs are not easy-mode anymore, basically. All you argue about is "unnerf", which will bring us to exactly the last CW situation, where CJF penetrated all the way trough to Capellan Confederation, being driven by mechs, that require neither expertise, nor player skills, nor combined-arms tactics to win games with.


======================================================================================

ch3sn0k, on 25 January 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Gauss is 12 tons + ammo. Thats a CLPL plus six double heat sinks. CLPL deals less damage per shot, but it is by orders of magnitude easier to deal damage with, just as pinpoint and does not require ammo. How can a sane person use a GR in it's place? Or better yet, try to use a charging up gauss to compete with instahit ERLL snipers, or even IS gauss snipers like Jagermechs with their high mounts.

CLPL has maximum range of 730 meters, Gauss has it at 1980 meters.

You charge-up Gauss while you're leaving cover, and fire either the target you've already noted, or follow their laser trail right into CT. Then you twist to spread the damage and cover-up. Rince and repeat. Gosh, in most cases ERLLs are fired from range where damage is so negligible, that I don't bother getting into cover to begin with. And IS Gauss sniper Jagermech is exactly what I use regularly. I'm good at it, even compared to my unit's peers, because I get a lot of practice. If our opponents are not forced into permanent hiding, I can end up coring-out 3 to 4 mechs using only one.

Quote

Firing LRMs does not force anyone into anything. The sniper still fires off his lasers and goes back behind cover.

Which is exactly the point. When the sniper comes back, there's people waiting for him by tracking the LRM impact location.

Quote

So you took an LRM loadout and were useless in a straight up fight, and didn't use your armor to spread damage from your teammates to boot. How is this teamwork?

It depends on your mech and loadout. Mediums are not good for tanking damage to begin with, and there's Medium class mechs for both factions, that are great LRM platforms, and nobody is sanely going to blame you for not doing things you're not supposed to. Whether or not you're going to take a heavier mech with armor sufficient for spreading damage and having supplementary weapons for helping in direct combat, is up to you, or to your drop commanders.

Finally, a single mech in an organized team is not a great diminisher neither to tanking capability, nor to direct combat power - sometimes it's even impossible to provide that advantage due to map limitations.

Quote

At least with lasers you have a fighting chance instead of trying to peashoot your way though armored and structure quirked side torsi.

Sure, if you're only capable of managing instant-hit weapons. Power of lasers is an illusion, the real damage output of which is insignificant, compared to what SRMs and UACs actually do. But you choose a stack of weapons, that fire two one-button alpha-strikes and then renders you disfunctional for 15 seconds, simply because it is easier to use. Major f****ing League Gaming right here. That misconception is what makes your gameplay so difficult.

Quote

I just love the hypocrisy of that statement. How many clan mechs have a humanoid profile with small CT, high side torso mounts and shielding arms? Summoner? Hellbringer? Executioner? Gargoyle? Oh wait, they all suck, big surprise.

Everything sucks when you only bother about disadvantages. Also, even competetive Clan players have not a clue about combined arms tactics, which is why they're only capable of making the use of mechs, that are severely undersized.

I had no practice with most Omni's, but at least as an observer I wouldn't consider Hellbringer bad. Others - maybe, but when you have everyone trying to use every Omnimech for laser-vomit poking, no wonder they suck. These mechs are better for completely different purposes, just as IS mechs are.Either way, Clans have plently of undersized, mobile mechs, while IS mechs are bulky and relatively slow, provided they trying to meet either decent firepower ratings or similar survivability levels.

Quote

No they are not. Lateral target movement pretty much halves your damage output.

Really? How?

Quote

Opponent will use your weapons' disadvantages to the fullest.

Which is exactly what Clanners should do, when they encounter predictable behavior, and what you seem to not being able to understand. What's in your control is to use advantages of your weapons, not to account for every weapon choice your enemy can potentially make. A sniper rifle is not used because it is heavy and useless in close-quarters. It is used because it can punch holes in people from over 500 meters.

Quote

I see the projectile hit the mech and see no damage dealt on the display. Or I see the red hit indicator and see no damage dealt. Or I see the slow as hell movement speed of the projectile which pretty much makes it useless to try and outrange pulse lasers with it.

I simply cannot relate myself to your issues.

Quote

My, and many others' opinion happens to be the opposite.

Which is why I question other's practical expertise. Sure, Flamers are junk with nothing but minimum values across the board. Sure, Machineguns are awful with very low base damage values. Sure, IS Small Lasers has unforgivingly low range. Sure, lower-end ACs has too steep DPS loss, that is not compensated with their range. Other than that, I see all weapons having their place in CW for specific purposes.

Quote

Blah-blah-blah. PGI has nerfed everything in clans' toolbox. Might as well finish the job and slap the last remaining decent chassis' with negative quirks or more vital systems like locked in jump jets and MASC.

PGI never nerfed clan's AC's, they've buffed them by reducing burst volume. PGI never nerfed SRMs, they reduced their spread. Everything PGI nerfed was heavily abused for inequal returns. And nobody is arguing, that Clans need another nerf, so stop pretending like I do.

Quote

Which is exactly what IS mechs are doing now. quod licet jovi, non licet bovi

It's not nearly as effective and abusive, as it was with Clans, that executed XL-driven IS mechs with a single burst.

Quote

Specialization always beats general purpose. Right now IS is much better at brawling and much better at sniping. And all CW maps have an abundance of cover, most fights are decided at 200-400m. How are clans supposed to compete again? By outskilling level design?

By using proper tools for the job. And, by using their advantages to an effect, not by ignoring them and whining how's there's only disadvantages afterwards. Finally, by actually trying to learn and acquire expertise on practice, not by following conclusions of dimwit metafags.

Edited by DivineEvil, 25 January 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Puraaj, on 25 January 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

re read my post, the first line in particular, i see a lot of stuff directed at me and &quot;my ilk&quot; i clearly stated i have no opinion on the balance matter, i'm merely pointing out you argue for and then directly against the idea of there being balance.
I havent played enough since i got back to form an informed opinion on the matter.
and yea, your point of suck it up cause we had to deal with it IS childish.

I did. Right back at you. Your comment ignores the background and context of my comment within this thread. Forgive my "tone" but my comment is intended for those in this thread who insist that due to selective examples of perceived imbalance the only solution is to quit the game or abandon clan mechs entirely. That is no more absurd than when the clans were OP if IS players would have suggested we all should just quit in order to get PGI to see the error of their ways. Imbalance does exist and will be addressed but the clanner solutions being bandied about above arebjust silly...or lame trolling. I still cant decide.

[DivineEvil]

Spadejack, on 25 January 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

@ Divine Evil and Gas Guzler, when you guys get to be T1 and be amongst competitive units and people, then your opinion should be considered, until there, do eveyone a favor, get better at the game.

I'm a Founder, playing this game ever since late Closed Beta. Out of over 3 years, that I've played MWO, I've spent roughly 6 months making short breaks from active playing. All the remaining time, I'm playing MWO almost every evening, and about 75-80% of that time I spend playing CW from it's implementation. And you see that "1" on the left with golden bar under it? It's called a Tier 1 PSR rank, FYI.

I've participated in MLM league and NetBattletech online campaign, and an active participant of MRBC league for 5 seasons, not including the 7th season, which is about to begin. I'm a part of a MRBC league team, that is European league's 5th after such most competetive EU teams as Black Spikes MercCorps, Battle Magic Mercenary Unit, Antares Scorpions and 9th Sanguine Tigers. My unit, Tikonov Commonality Armed Forces, represents the largest Russian conglomerate and the largest Capellan Confederation military force in MWO community.

Despite not being held by responsibilities of higher-ranking unit command officers, I'm a part of TCAF military council and participate in unit's affairs including politics, unit structure, member management, tactics and theoretic discussions. I've single-handly created unit's database structure, that our command officers are using to manage unit's rosters, training sessions, mech builds for CW dropdecks and league matches and calculating mech's parameters, together with a complete internal mech database with all numerical values represented in a convenient spreadsheet form.

So by your own standards, you really should consider what I'm trying to tell you.

Edited by DivineEvil, 25 January 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[Roland09]

DivineEvil, on 25 January 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

So by your own standards, you really should consider what I'm trying to tell you.

Bah, not good enough. You are an IS fanboy troll. When you get to Tier 1, you will have done it using eazy-mode IS mechs, so it doesn't count.

Whereas BRAVE CLAN WARRIORS™ are actively looking for a challenge... oh, wait.

[Bud Crue]

Bah! I should have realized all this was just T1 trolling. Fished in.
Well done all.

[latinisator]

Charles Sennet, on 25 January 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

The CW map speaks for itself. It did so when Clans marched to Terra (before the balance pass) and it does now with all the Clans being pushed back to their home worlds.

Too one-sided though. On my alt account (dates back to closed beta, was not touched since 2 years or something) I am hopping Clans for mechbays atm (after that: IS) and there Clans were able to pull a few victories off. Taking a look at the scoreboard shows the truth: many newbies without a clue what to do with trial Mechs (the (C) variants are good, the rest..not so much imho).
The same was true for the IS when ~MS~ (not Wolf!) nearly won CW. I witnessed much more pug games than I witnessed 12 men premades on IS-side. "Clan OP" so units stopped playing.
Now that only few larger units are Clan, the problem is no longer on the IS's side but on the Clans: less units, more pug-newbies with..er..unconventional builds.

Time and again I suggest: get rid of the public queue, have everyone pick a faction and let there be faction warfare all along: a public queue and the current CW-queue. Onyl difference: it will always be Clan vs IS. (mixed tech in private lobby only)

Add a CW tutorial that needs to be done like 3 or 4 times before you can join a CW fight. (let there be some rewards)
Buff Clans a little bit (unlock FF/Endo, unnerf ERLL a bit), leave the IS as it is right now.
Get rid of uberquirks.
Then implement 8v12. (public queue)
Alter CW so that Clan can bring 3 waves, IS the current 4 waves. Reduce the drop deck weight limit for both sides asap!

--> Clans tech advantage is compensated by IS's numbers. Stomps will happen no matter what. There is no balancing the stupidity everyone falls into once in a while.

Edited by latinisator, 25 January 2016 - 09:13 PM.