110 replies to this topic

[Idealsuspect]

TWIAFU, on 28 December 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Yes, 12mans are the debil playing in the game mode that was primarily designed for them.

Lol you will never be hired as programmer or coder ... or only maybe by PGI.

[Dawnstealer]

Mister D, on 28 December 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

Ok to put this into perspective.

After doing CW games tonight just to have fun and get some reward points for the event.

Getting 10-12 premade teams over and over, and being stomped 48-8, 48-12, 48-3, ok..

Thats what I'm dealing with here, and Its infuriating, What is the point in directing a team that can't even get a single kill, and after the first wave blows right through them, gets spawn camped and seperated so we can't even form up.

Its one thing to have teamwork, but when its just farming and trolling new players like this, its just shameful.

I'm to the point where I just don't give a **** when I see a 12 man premade, because no matter how hard I carry or try to direct these players it doesn't mean anything, and its just a nubfest stomp regardless.

Welcome to what the IS has been dealing with for the last year or so.

[xX PUG Xx]

Chagatay, on 28 December 2015 - 02:30 AM, said:

To be fair it can be quite the struggle in 48v8 type games (you find yourself with 8 or so "c" mechs). I certainly can see it happening.

Slightly off topic but I'm tired of seeing comments like this....

Just to debunk the whole Trial 'Mechs shouldn't be in CW issue I took a full (C) deck yesterday; Atlas, Catapult, Jenner, Thunderbolt. 6 kills, 21 assists, 1485 damage and a win later I was convinced they are perfectly usable in CW. The match was almost completely full of solo droppers, perhaps a couple of 2 mans; so no assistance from my Unit to get an inflated score.

There is simply no basis for blocking players from playing CW due to not owning their own 'Mechs and more importantly, having X number of Trial 'Mechs is no excuse for losing a match.

Rant over/

[Revis Volek]

TLBFestus, on 28 December 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

There are a couple of issues at play here;

PGI created a series of CW only maps with Choke Points/Bottle necks in them.

CW was made for groups. Organized groups.

Organized Groups tend to employ strategy, and they take full advantage of the choke points. PUGs don't choose to use choke points, they are forced into them.

Keep in mind that it was the hard core groups demanding that CW be "hard mode" and be just for them. Unfortunately they didn't think this through enough because there are not enough of these groups to make CW viable, and in it's current form THERE NEVER WILL BE.

The Organized groups as a whole tend to "farm" the PUGS foolish enough to attempt CW, and when they do there are players in the group that taunt and belittle the other side. The unit leaders tend to not do anything about this behavior so it continues.

You often hear, and it's already been said in this thread, "Well, join a group (and everything will magically get better)". The people saying this just don't get it, 90% of the population ARE NOT INTERESTED. They aren't,....get used to it....it'sn not gonna change...not ever.

So here we have a niche game with a tiny population in which one game mode caters to the minority. That minority does nothing to improve the situation by letting it's less mature members harass/belittle the few people that trickle into CW.

Mostly though, it's the design that kills it. The maps are designed in such a way that it's not necessary to create kill zones in response to the enemy, PGI set it up so that the choke points are fixed and there's no need to go anywhere else.

If I were to fix it, I'd fix it so that it actually appealed to PUGs. There would be a maximum group size of 4 unless it was a private match. This wouldn't stop sync dropping but it would tend to split the talent up between the teams.

The maps would be redesigned to remove the choke points or at the very least remove the gates or any indication that the gates are coming down to allow at least some surprise for the attackers. Be better if the gates were gone though.

Accept the fact that with such a small population that CW sill have to cater to PUGs, otherwise it's never, ever, going to be anything but what it is now.

How does this help anything though? All you did was remove groups from the game entirely....Units too because you wont have very many units around if we can only play with 3 other people.


Way to kil the game faster them CW is on its own right now. Id quit tonight if they went back to group limits of 4 and never look back. This is a TEAM GAME when you have 3 TEAMS per side you ruined the TEAM aspect of the game.

Edited by DarthRevis, 28 December 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Mystere]

Bush Hopper, on 28 December 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

But one last thing: it is amusing that you try to force people to play the game you want to have it. For the reason I mentioned in my previous note but also because 12 men are the minority as well AND that you "CW-is-only-about-units-so-stay-the-****-out"-dudes wouldn't be really able to play without the anti-social people you so detest. Now, isn't that irony but also were wrong in itself?

Fortunately, that has generally not been my experience as someone who drops only solo. But then again, I'm Clan Jade Falcon.

[Mystere]

TLBFestus, on 28 December 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

True....but as i pointed out the population is too small to support all these modes. The CW diehards complain about not enough players, not enough teamwork, etc., but the real root of the problem is the small player base.

IF this game had 10x the population it would begin to have the numbers to support the current incarnation of CW, but that is never going to happen.

So, you either put up with pugs in CW who won't stick around, or CW gets changed to appeal to the PUGs and the try-hards get all bent out of shape.

I'm wondering who PGI will listen to, the 90% of the population that isn't in a group or the 10% that is?

Here are some food for thought:

• Community Warfare was originally intended to be "The Game".
  
• The public queues were originally intended only to be fillers that eventually became "The Main Feature".

Ay yay yay!

[Mystere]

TLBFestus, on 28 December 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

If I were to fix it, I'd fix it so that it actually appealed to PUGs. There would be a maximum group size of 4 unless it was a private match. This wouldn't stop sync dropping but it would tend to split the talent up between the teams.

DarthRevis, on 28 December 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

How does this help anything though? All you did was remove groups from the game entirely....Units too because you wont have very many units around if we can only play with 3 other people.

Way to kil the game faster them CW is on its own right now. Id quit tonight if they went back to group limits of 4 and never look back. This is a TEAM GAME when you have 3 TEAMS per side you ruined the TEAM aspect of the game.

Either people here have short memories or they intentionally ignore "The Inconvenient Truth". Limiting the group queue to at most lance-sized groups killed a whole lot of units in MWO, not to mention a not so insignificant exodus of players. And now some actually want a repeat of that?

[Tarogato]

Thanks for being another solo pug to farm.

Hey, maybe if everybody who solo'd CW would just join up with units, then perhaps units would have enough people to do 12v12 each other without pug teams getting in the way and wasting their time?

Of course, then again, I'm a part of a small unit that doesn't play CW, so I solo pug all the time. But you don't see me complaining about it. Ever.

[PerfectDuck]

I'll start off by saying I'm someone who NEVER drops solo. The sheer amount of anti-group, anti-competitive ignorance, villainizing and insults spread by solo-only players on this thread frightens me, for I fear for the future of this game. We have so few people who play MW:O who don't suck and I can almost fit the number of comp teams on my hands. From this side of the fence, we see the only solution is to see more players encouraged to embrace organized play. It's actually really fun up here. Whatever enjoyment you guys get from pug vs pug.. I don't get. I only find this game fun when both sides are playing well.

Let's get into some background. I'm personally pretty tired of it because I was hugely into competitive Super Smash Bros when I was younger and we were trolled by the same attitude of punksters saying that we're ruining a game that's meant for parties, doing such un-fun things as disabling items and choosing the less gimicky and neutral stages. It even had its own meta of matchups and some characters being played a lot more than others. These people showed up at tournament events occasionally, having no idea and expecting to have a good time, got wrecked, and then promptly concluded that we have no lives to have been playing the game so much and gotten this good.

They didn't really sit around to notice the way we were actually interacting with one another. We're not bullies trying to act tough or *********** inside our heads at how much better we are than wimps. We don't get some primitive satisfaction from dominating the defenseless (There are a couple bad eggs I suppose, but a lot of the people I really respected and looked up to in the competitive community were far from that! Nicest guys ever). I don't think it clicks in the casual player's mind that it's fun to play at your very best and to expect the same in your opponents and to give your best game no matter what. It disappoints us when people don't even try. To put this into MW:O perspective, I consider 'not even trying' the refusal to be part of a team.

Sometimes I'd put money on the line when I'm going up against a regional traveling champ, knowing full well that I was going to lose my money. I played this guy so I could learn from him and get better. And if he 'sandbags' ie doesn't even try because I'm too easy for him, I actually take that as an insult. I want my opponent to drive me into the ground as hard as he possibly can and not hold back for a moment. If I can land an effective hit on a pro, I want to have earned it. I take every loss as an opportunity to learn. I can still almost perfectly replay how some of my games went because I was so amped up and focused in the match. This is a thrill and a joy, and in fighter games especially it's like a new form of interaction, getting inside the heads of people, seeing how they think and watching how play styles interact, how people react to pressure and such.

We always shook hands afterward and said GG, it's just sportsmanlike to do because we all understood that stomps happen not because people enjoy clubbing seals but because we respected our opponent enough to show them everything we're capable of, and they appreciated that back and took their whupping not as an insult but as a reminder that they still have much improvement to go.

I don't feel good clubbing seals. People who are competitive are on a quest for self-improvement and interested in seeing how good they can get. What bothers people like us the most is not losing in itself, but rather not knowing how to improve or not understanding how the loss happened. If it's a loss where the reasons were clear, that's good because we know where we can improve on; we can prevent that from happening the next time or maybe even use that ourselves. People who avoid losses entirely out of trying to protect their egos are not the kind of gamer who stick around in the competitive scene once they've seen what it's like and what it takes to stay in it.

Here's to hoping those shamefully ignorant images aren't actually believed by anyone and that there's more people who can actually understand where we're coming from. There are a lot of different personalities, a lot of different mindsets, and a lot of different forms of enjoyment that players are seeking as they all find themselves pitted against each other in this gamemode. Us competitive players are not evil or cowardly, we just take the game more seriously than you and don't bother dumbing down our own abilities when we could be doing something a better way. Are we going to ruin pugs' experience by being a superior force to their sordidly unorganized mess? Probably. You people who don't even try are wasting our time too. Go back to pug queue please. And I hope the devs find a way to make it harder for all those other units to hide from ours.

[Lazor Sharp]

Targoto, PerfectDuck,

Thanks, I could have never said it better myself.......

Edited by Lazor Sharp, 28 December 2015 - 04:57 PM.

[Aresye]

xX PUG Xx, on 28 December 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

Slightly off topic but I'm tired of seeing comments like this....

Just to debunk the whole Trial 'Mechs shouldn't be in CW issue I took a full (C) deck yesterday; Atlas, Catapult, Jenner, Thunderbolt. 6 kills, 21 assists, 1485 damage and a win later I was convinced they are perfectly usable in CW.

That's because it isn't the trial mechs, nor premades, nor IS vs. Clan balance that's the root cause of all the issues.

The root cause of all these issues is Team A is better than Team B. Simple as that.

Gather the top players in this game, give them nothing but trial mechs, put them all on one side, and tell them they can't use teamspeak or VOIP. I GUARANTEE you they would wipe the floor of nearly every 12man out there, including some of the better ones like KCom and MS.

When my alt account was brand new and I didn't own a single mech, I dropped solo IS CW to get some more CBills. We'd get stomped, and some player with < 500 damage is complaining in all chat about them being a large premade. Meanwhile I'm just sitting quietly, looking at my completely trial drop deck that got more than double the score and kills of the next best player on my team...

[Kjudoon]

Quote

I call ppl like Kjudoon anti social, because they would much rather play PvE against AI and generally think most other ppl are pieces of S*** and we seem to have way to many with this mind set in a TEAM BASED GAME.

People keep disappointing me with their behavior, not their gameplay.

On the other hand, when I group up, I work with my team. Then again, I chose a unit wisely.

Quote

Rest your Case, LOL because you had NO CASE.... TEAM BASED GAME don't you get it, TEAM GAME, not a Solo Rambo Stray Cat GAME

The same people who often scream "THIS IS A TEAM BASED GAME" are often first in line to scream "GET YOUR OWN LOCKS LOSER!" Very team-like thinking. Then they get mad when the people they just blasted refuse to help them out and resent them. Even more mad when they get called out in the forums for their filthy attitude.

You are your own worst enemy and cause of anti-social behavior.

I can't stand Rambotardia, just like everyone else, but guess what? This is typical gamer behavior that someone, maybe multiple someones, probably new players who don't know the strategies of this game driving you crazy. Or their goals are something that is not in alignment with yours. That's the risk of an online "Social" game of random individuals.

If you don't want that kind of gameplay, do not play CW or the PQs. Play only 12man private mode matches.

The choice is yours and your attitude is partially responsible for this mess we now have. Just like everyone else's. You too, are not innocent.

Idealsuspect, on 28 December 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Lol you will never be hired as programmer or coder ... or only maybe by PGI.

That chart is also known as the "Totalitarian government interrogation flow chart".

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 December 2015 - 07:28 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Mister D, on 28 December 2015 - 01:13 AM, said:

Thanks all you guys putting 12 man premade teams in CW during the event.

Thanks for stripping away any possible fun there might be in playing CW to achieve the points we need to do the event.

Its great that you guys are farming the crap out of mixed pub players and trial mechs.

Way to go, way to be *******.

[Moldur]

People who complain about premades in CW are complaining about their own inability to join a unit, many of which have their doors WIDE OPEN. It's not like they're made up of robots that don't understand real life obligations or will harp on you 24/7 for why you didn't show up for the event or something.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

Limiting the group queue to at most lance-sized groups killed a whole lot of units in MWO, not to mention a not so insignificant exodus of players. And now some actually want a repeat of that?

Hate to disagree, but you're old enough to remember the opposite is true. We have seen more mass exodus SINCE 5+ than the original 1-4 group limit. Maybe there was a time it wasn't here in closed or open beta that I don't know about but post launch in 2013, it was always 1-4 and nobody I knew of... NOBODY left because they could only have 1-4 players in a group.

[Captain Stiffy]

RestosIII, on 28 December 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

You're... Complaining about teamwork? I feel like we're starting to run out of things to complain about at this point.

The issue is constantly sidestepped with crap like this. The elephant in the room is that a premade vs. a team of pugs is a stacked game.

[Viges]

Novakaine, on 28 December 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Average ad hoc pug pilots in CW.
You just know what's gonna happen.
Regardless.

[TLBFestus]

Lazor Sharp, on 28 December 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

Rest your Case, LOL because you had NO CASE.... TEAM BASED GAME don't you get it, TEAM GAME, not a Solo Rambo Stray Cat GAME

The only valid point you make is the Low player Base...... and that is sad, if most new players joined a meduim size unit and learn how to play as a team first thing, we would have more player retention, and less baby seals, vs having newbies try to SOLO, and rage quit first thing......

Honest...I get it...TEAM BASED. Those all caps really helped me get it. To quote the immortal Colonel Nathan R. Jessup;



What you don't get, or won't accept is that you are in the minority and for the foreseeable future (by which I mean FOREVER) will remain that.

Nothing you can say will change that fact. Every MMO has team play pretty much and still the solo players represent the vast majority of the player base. MWO being a small MMO has a very low chance of CW being the way that you seem to insist it has to be.

The funny part is that it already is exactly how you want it to be, TEAM BASED, and it has the numbers it deserves based on the population, and the nature of the CW the organized groups demanded.

Whether you accept this or not, the real truth is that the game itself needs a very large population of solo players so that some of them will eventually "trickle down" into the team based CW. In it's current form there is no incentive for solo players to be attracted to it.

Most are very happy with "group" based play and aren't as concerned about "team" based play.

Edited by TLBFestus, 28 December 2015 - 09:40 PM.

[Lazor Sharp]

"The same people who often scream "THIS IS A TEAM BASED GAME" are often first in line to scream "GET YOUR OWN LOCKS LOSER!" Very team-like thinking. Then they get mad when the people they just blasted refuse to help them out and resent them. Even more mad when they get called out in the forums for their filthy attitude."

Can't pin that one on me.... I always lock targets..... and i get what you are saying but, not every one is like that......

I would just like for more new players to join units, and learn how to not be stray cats and baby seals first rattle out of the box.....

Learn TEAMWORK first thing, and be carryed by the vets some, until they learn the ropes, and the baby seal syndrome is lessened for every one involved.....

Edited by Lazor Sharp, 28 December 2015 - 09:47 PM.

[Lazor Sharp]

"What you don't get, or won't accept is that you are in the minority and for the foreseeable future (by which I mean FOREVER) will remain that.

Nothing you can say will change that fact. Every MMO has team play pretty much and still the solo players represent the vast majority of the player base. MWO being a small MMO has a very low chance of CW being the way that you seem to insist it has to be.

Whether you accept this or not, the real truth is that the game itself needs a very large population of solo players so that some of them will eventually "trickle down" into the team based CW. In it's current form there is no incentive for solo players to be attracted to it."

I find it SAD, I get it, and do agree with all this, but it would be really really nice if the % of larger groups could be increased with incentives of some kind... and maybe CW3 will help.

I lay this lack of unit play / teamwork problem at PGI's feet, as they have done very little from day one to foster or incentivize the the unit 12 man kind of play, and have done so much BS that ran off so much of our units players that could field 12 mans regular, it is amassing that any are left......

Edited by Lazor Sharp, 28 December 2015 - 10:20 PM.