58 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

Lightfoot, on 30 December 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

The Gauss Rifle needs a recycle time that is longer than an AC20, it does not need the charge-up.

The charge-up was only successful until most players learned to use it. The longer recycle time affects all equally. But the Gauss Rifle does not need both. 6 second recharge makes the Gauss long range balanced. It can't compete vs much higher dps short range ballistics or lasers. That's all that is needed

The charge up limits the gauss rifle use as a fast reaction weapon in a brawl. It used to be simple to blow away circle strafing lights in a gauss boat at 100m ... the charge mechanic still makes this more challenging. It never really had a big impact on longer range fire against slower moving targets and it really wasn't meant to.

Before the charge mechanic, I can recall using a dual gauss Jaeger or K2 to leg lights that were strafing. I also took them out with dual gauss to the torso since 30 pinpoint against an already damaged light can often be sufficient to kill it. This mode of play is still more challenging with the charge mechanic since it is harder to predict where that light will be when the gun is charged. It can still be done but it isn't as easy.

Finally, although I enjoy using dual gauss boats both before and after the charge mechanic was introduced ... I have to agree that the weapon is too powerful without the charge mechanic. Without the charge mechanic, snap shots with fast projectiles at targets at any range are just too easy and too effective.

[Fastwind]

Gauss needs a buff!
because it got nerfed 3 times now,hard,and the reason for the nerf was always another weaponsystem that was op
the first 2 times because of ppc's and now because of laser vomit
and the lasers are still op
also it highly saddens me that pgi obviously doesn't want sniping to be a thing
i guess no one at pgi can aim half decent,thats why we get all these short range MAPS and long range weapon nerfs
they once had a slogan " A thinking mans shoter" now it's more like facehug buttonsmash,still miss
makes me sad

[Fastwind]

Mawai, on 30 December 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

The charge up limits the gauss rifle use as a fast reaction weapon in a brawl. It used to be simple to blow away circle strafing lights in a gauss boat at 100m ... the charge mechanic still makes this more challenging. It never really had a big impact on longer range fire against slower moving targets and it really wasn't meant to.

Before the charge mechanic, I can recall using a dual gauss Jaeger or K2 to leg lights that were strafing. I also took them out with dual gauss to the torso since 30 pinpoint against an already damaged light can often be sufficient to kill it. This mode of play is still more challenging with the charge mechanic since it is harder to predict where that light will be when the gun is charged. It can still be done but it isn't as easy.

Finally, although I enjoy using dual gauss boats both before and after the charge mechanic was introduced ... I have to agree that the weapon is too powerful without the charge mechanic. Without the charge mechanic, snap shots with fast projectiles at targets at any range are just too easy and too effective.

it's easier to hit a target thats 100 m away with the gauss than one thats beyond 600+ meters
because by the time you have charged the weapon your 600meter target has gotten to cover ducked down or even more likely a friendly mech walked into your line of fire
so you have to hold your shot and recharge again
the friendly walks in your line of fire again,because he hasn't made up his mind if he should go forward or backward and guess what,you hold the charge and recharge again
leaving you with a even bigger reload
the weapon is by far nerfed enough

[Hawk_eye]

Sometimes, I just don´t understand PGI´s approach to balancing.

What I´d do is to look at what the actual problem is and then tweak/buff/nerf _that_ aspect.

For example:
If the problem is the synergy of Gauss + Lasers, then make it impossible to shoot one/two Gauss and some lasers at the same time (the "your reactor can only put out so much power per time increment" suggestion comes to mind (which could also be used to nerf the laser-alpha-vomit issue)).

If the problem is the use of Gauss in a brawl, give it a minimum range.

Instead, the weapon is hit with an "across the board" nerf.
Does the charge-up time and increased cool-down address the brawling issue?
Kind of, but it also impacts it´s viability as a sniper weapon.

It´s like, if on a road passing a school, children are run over by cars, so the government limits all cars to a maximum speed of 30 km/h. Sure this will fix the problem of run-over children in front of that school, but that also brings traffic across the country to a crawl. How much more efficient to just limit cars in front of that school to 30 and let ´em drive faster elsewhere, where there is no danger of running over children?

[ShinVector]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 30 December 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

With Gauss Rifles, your cockpit thrashes and suddenly you've taken 15/30 damage, from a source you still might not have identified as the projectile itself is actually fairly hard to spot unless you're looking for it. Since they have this advantage it seems only fair that a Gauss Rifle should be more of a liability in a brawl than any other weapon, besides LRMs ofcourse.

Actually Gauss is VERY VERY easy to spot But.... Only if you turn up 'Particles' in the graphics section. There is huge particle burst when gauss is fired.

However... 'Particles' is very badly optimised in MWO... You take huge FPS dip during the worst of time, especially when hit by lasers in front of the cockpit.. So... End results most people will put Particles to low... And you get the hard to see gauss issue.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 30 December 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

It strikes hard, without warning, from long distance.

and thats bad why exactly?

[ShinVector]

Mawai, on 30 December 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

The charge up limits the gauss rifle use as a fast reaction weapon in a brawl. It used to be simple to blow away circle strafing lights in a gauss boat at 100m ... the charge mechanic still makes this more challenging. It never really had a big impact on longer range fire against slower moving targets and it really wasn't meant to.

I need to correct the history a bit... The charge mechanic in gauss was meant put a wench in gauss META combos.
Most famous being PPC + PPC (+ PPC for Highlanders at the time) + Gauss = 35 FLPP Damage cheese. Especially popular with Poptarts at the time.

Still can be done even now but more tricky.


But yes... I am primarily a Light pilot so, dual gauss is certainly cheese that deserved to be toned down.

https://youtu.be/5aXJaAHaXk4?t=172

[QuantumButler]

they should get rid of the charge now that it's had the huge ROF nerf.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

My first thought was: Hey it is OK. The nerf doesn t change much.

Then I played it.

It is a useless weapon now.

[B0oN]

Gauss needed the Nerf.
Gauss is still awesome .


Marc is a Meta addict

[Sky Hawk]

So.. "I have a GREAT idea"...

And a simple one... From begin of the Gauss charging, till about [1,5] sec after the firing, you can't use any energie-based weapon systems... That would eliminate the case of the high-pinpoint-combos for ever...

PGI could say, something like: "The charging of the Gauss.. need so much energie from the reactor output, that the Mech can't use any other energie-based weapons during that time.... "... (Except TAG..)

With the erase of the XYZ-Gauss combo, the Gauss cooldown could drop to.. [3] sec... for example...

But, it's just an idea... PGI won't change anything...

Edited by Sky Hawk, 31 December 2015 - 05:07 AM.

[Mawai]

Fastwind, on 30 December 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Gauss needs a buff!
because it got nerfed 3 times now,hard,and the reason for the nerf was always another weaponsystem that was op
the first 2 times because of ppc's and now because of laser vomit
and the lasers are still op
also it highly saddens me that pgi obviously doesn't want sniping to be a thing
i guess no one at pgi can aim half decent,thats why we get all these short range MAPS and long range weapon nerfs
they once had a slogan " A thinking mans shoter" now it's more like facehug buttonsmash,still miss
makes me sad

"also it highly saddens me that pgi obviously doesn't want sniping to be a thing"

LOL. If you can't snipe in MWO you are doing something wrong. You may not be able to snipe as quickly with zero heat as you used to with dual gauss but sniping is still a useful tactic.

I did 700 damage not that long ago in a snipe PPC MAD-3R.

Maulers, Cataphracts and Jaegers with 3 or 4 AC5s are great at sniping.

All the dual gauss builds are good at sniping.

PPCs are generally ok at sniping but the PPC projectile speed quirked mechs are much easier to use.

You can even snipe with LL and ERLL but you need a steady hand.

Sniping is firing from long range with good accuracy and there are a lot of ways to do this in MWO.

Many folks who are complaining about the gauss nerf want a high rate of fire, pin point, long range, fast projectile damage weapon ... or in other words something that is perfect and OP in comparison to the other options.

With clan XL engines and clan CASE ... even the explosive nature of the gauss rifle is mitigated when used by clans.

[BigBenn]

The poll question is too narrow.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: as the gauss sits right now (Dec 31, 2015), all that is needed is the put the health back up to 10 and REMOVE the charge up.

The other weapons that compare to the gauss still have the advantage in a short range fight. Compare the Dire Wolf or King Crab with dual gauss vs dual AC20, AC10, or quad UAC5, and the ranges, damage over time, etc, etc.

I fully understand PGI wanting to keep the gauss out of the brawling world but as it is now it is not worth the weight or reload time, ESPECIALLY the Inner Sphere gauss.

[FragKommando]

It was strong but now it kinda feels useless It's trash.

[LCCX]

Gauss rifles DESPERATELY needed a nerf! It was a weapon with a fast projectile, long range, front-loaded-damage, small enough to fit in side torsos with an XL engine, that didn't easily reveal the shooters location, that produced almost NO HEAT (the principle alpha and DPS limitation mechanic in the entire game!), and that had about the same effective DPS (after accounting for heat-cap and twisting to roll damage) as any other large weapon system. The 20% DPS nerf feels about right, but I'd wait another 3-6 months to see how builds shift (e.g. is anyone Tier 1-2 taking AC20 when they could have reasonably taken Gauss?).

Because the IS buffs recently increased their structure mostly and Gauss rifles like to explode on crits, I could see the IS Gauss rifle getting buffed by up to 0.5s cooldown, but it's probably alright where it is for now.

[Hexenhammer]

I remember the pre charge up days. I want to go back to them because I miss brawling with my gauss jäger. Why bring an ac/20 when I've got better range, better accuracy and a whole lot less heat with a gauss? No we can debate cycle times all day long but the charge up has to stay.

"These are the old days man, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. ....."
- Marv

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Gauss was a serious outlier. Assuming the OP and poll is referencing the mild cooldown increase, then that's something I've which I've been advocating for maybe six months or a year now. I'm super glad that they finally did it.

[Lightfoot]

Mawai, on 30 December 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

The charge up limits the gauss rifle use as a fast reaction weapon in a brawl. It used to be simple to blow away circle strafing lights in a gauss boat at 100m ... the charge mechanic still makes this more challenging. It never really had a big impact on longer range fire against slower moving targets and it really wasn't meant to.

Before the charge mechanic, I can recall using a dual gauss Jaeger or K2 to leg lights that were strafing. I also took them out with dual gauss to the torso since 30 pinpoint against an already damaged light can often be sufficient to kill it. This mode of play is still more challenging with the charge mechanic since it is harder to predict where that light will be when the gun is charged. It can still be done but it isn't as easy.

Finally, although I enjoy using dual gauss boats both before and after the charge mechanic was introduced ... I have to agree that the weapon is too powerful without the charge mechanic. Without the charge mechanic, snap shots with fast projectiles at targets at any range are just too easy and too effective.

The Gauss Rifle used to have a 1500 mps speed. Less than the PPC back then. It only became the OP 2000 mps after the charge-up was added. As has been stated, a single Gauss Rifle with no charge-up was never an issue, it was when players started mounting 2xGauss in the Catapult K2's machine gun slots that some players complained. We warned PGI in Closed Beta that giving the Gauss Rifle the same recycle as an AC20 was unbalanced since longer range equals lower DPS, but PGI said they were happy with where it was at 4 seconds.

The Gauss Charge-up is not and was never needed, just a 5 to 6 second recharge with a 1500-1700 mps travel time balances the weapon's DPS, Weight, and Space. The Gauss Charge-up was only effective until most players learned to use it, then PGI saw that it really needed a longer recharge as we had always suggested in Closed Beta. Well, now it really no longer needs the charge-up that only punishes NEW PLAYERS and those who have never been able to make it work which are a good 30% of MWO's player base.

Now here is the math that proves it. In MechWarrior, unlike Quake, and CoD, etc., you measure a weapon by DPS vs Weight because unlike Quake a mech has payload space that it fills with weapons. So the chart for the current MWO ballistics is this. (Inner Sphere only for brevity)

Weapon..............................DPS=DPS/ton

machine gun........................0.8 = 1.6

ac2.......................................2.78 = 0.46

ULTRA AC/5........................3.01= 0.37 to 0.67 or jams

ac5.......................................3.01= 0.37

lb 10-x..................................4.00= 0.36

ac20.....................................5.00= 0.35

ac10.....................................4.00= 0.33

gauss rifle.............................2.50= 0.17

So as you can see the Gauss Rifle already pays for it's range and accuracy with it's weight and recycle vs the other ballistics. If you feel it is OP, that is just a subjective feeling like "owww, that hurt! OP,OP, nerf! nerf!" It is actually a very weak weapon which is why Time to Kill times got much shorter after it was effectively replaced by Lasers because of the charge-up nerf making it impossible for most players to use at first.

All the Gauss charge-up does is ruin the competitiveness of those battlemechs that can only carry one Gauss Rifle, which is most of them. Meanwhile it anoints any battlemech that can carry 2xGauss with an ultra-special status. So the Gauss charge-up actually unbalances MWO's mechs completely, ruining the Shadow Cat prime and most mediums and heaven help us if MWO ever gets around to the 35 ton Hollander, a classic Light mech with a Gauss only.

Edited by Lightfoot, 31 December 2015 - 10:41 AM.

[Mawai]

Antecursor Venatus, on 30 December 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

Sometimes, I just don´t understand PGI´s approach to balancing.

What I´d do is to look at what the actual problem is and then tweak/buff/nerf _that_ aspect.

For example:
If the problem is the synergy of Gauss + Lasers, then make it impossible to shoot one/two Gauss and some lasers at the same time (the "your reactor can only put out so much power per time increment" suggestion comes to mind (which could also be used to nerf the laser-alpha-vomit issue)).

If the problem is the use of Gauss in a brawl, give it a minimum range.

Instead, the weapon is hit with an "across the board" nerf.
Does the charge-up time and increased cool-down address the brawling issue?
Kind of, but it also impacts it´s viability as a sniper weapon.

It´s like, if on a road passing a school, children are run over by cars, so the government limits all cars to a maximum speed of 30 km/h. Sure this will fix the problem of run-over children in front of that school, but that also brings traffic across the country to a crawl. How much more efficient to just limit cars in front of that school to 30 and let ´em drive faster elsewhere, where there is no danger of running over children?

The "problem" is Pin Point Front Loaded Damage (PPFLD) ... the gauss rifle is just the best example of this since it has a very high projectile velocity, long range and no heat.

The IS AC20 does it slightly better except it has limited range and the round drops over the length of the trajectory making it harder to aim.

2 x PPC or 2 x AC10 is 20 damage and not 30. 30 damage appears to cross a threshold in effectiveness in terms of delivering the killing blow to a damaged mech.

3x PPC is 30 damage but generates a lot of heat so it can't be sustained for any length of time. In addition, the projectiles are a lot slower.

So the problem is really PPFLD ... best exemplified by the gauss. It could be addressed by adding convergence but if folks are going to complain about "ghost" range on lasers ... I can't wait to see the level of complaint about .. "you haven't held the target long enough so the weapons aren't aimed at your targeting point yet"

Finally, the charge up mechanic doesn't prevent use of a gauss rifle as a sniper weapon. What it does do is make it much more difficult to take snap shots against brief targets of opportunity ... which is the point. No other weapon has the projectile speed and instant convergence to deliver 30 points of damage to ONE section of the mech at 600m. Without the charge mechanic the gauss is a point and click destruction weapon delivering a decent alpha at long range against momentary targets.

Before the charge mechanic, gauss sniping was beautiful. You could sit back at range and hit any target that poked their nose out for a split second for a 30 point alpha to one mech section. It did not take that many hits to take out a mech this way.

You can still do this now but it takes significantly more effort, skill and timing.

Finally, the 5.5s cooldown might be a bit much. 5s might be ok ... but PGI will have the numbers to know one way or another. However, unless PGI changes something else like adding convergence ... the gauss will remain the kill of PPFLD alpha strikes.

[NocturnalBeast]

The original chargeup nerf was enough to desync the Gauss rifle from the PPCs, so the additional nerf was just an unnecessary knee-jerk nerf.

Edited by Ed Steele, 31 December 2015 - 02:15 PM.