42 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

adamts01, on 31 December 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

I love the emphasis on winning. No matter how your contribute (damage, killing, scouting, drop commanding, distracting, providing ECM, good looking paint), many of these not measurable, if you consistently win you should move up.

The three problems are:

• It's too easy to move up
  
• It's impossible to move down
  
• Tiers are completely mixed up in matches anyway

well I have to diagree

• define "too easy" I'm Tier 3 (about halfway through) and I am spending a lot of time digging up through 3
  
• ?? uh... no it's not. Dont' know where you got this info from but it's wrong
  
• ? you face players in a +2-2 tier rating with no deviation. I dont' know where you get "all mixed up"

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

well I have to diagree

• define "too easy" I'm Tier 3 (about halfway through) and I am spending a lot of time digging up through 3
  
• ?? uh... no it's not. Dont' know where you got this info from but it's wrong
  
• ? you face players in a +2-2 tier rating with no deviation. I dont' know where you get "all mixed up"

I got to say I mostly just agree with his third point. In Tier 3 you play with all the tiers anyway, that would be considered "all mixed up." Whats the point of a tier system when you can go against anyone anyway. This is mostly only a Tier 3 issue though, however reducing it to only battling your tier and the adjacent would help out in my opinion.

[Random Carnage]

Antecursor Venatus, on 31 December 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

AFAIKT, PSR is a flawed system as in, eventually, everyone reaches tier-1.

Instead of moving up or down in your PSR depending on your match-score, use the match-score itself (yes, match-score is also kinda flawed, but it´s the best we have atm).

Add all scores and divide them by the number of matches played, which gives you your average match score.

Now just give each tier a number of slots (percentage of total player base or something)

So let´s say there are 5000 accounts (completely arbitrary number)

Tier-5 35% of player-base --> 1750 players with the lowest rating go there
Tier-4 30% of player-base --> 1500 player
Tier-3 20% of player-base --> 1000 player
Tier-2 10% of player-base --> 500 player
Tier-1 5% of player-base --> 250 player with the highest rating go here.

As a player improves his score enough, he replaces a higher tier player, who goes down one tier to take his place.
That way, tier-1 would truly represent the top 5% of the player-base and matching similar tiers vs. each other could actually work.

Just my 2 cent

Good luck getting a match. T1 players will need a good book handy while waiting for sufficient numbers to make a game.
T4 and T5 will have the same problem but for different reasons, with huge wait queues given 65% of the player base will be vying for these games.
There were at least 25000 accounts before Steam based on the stats from a recent event. Probably a lot more now, and mostly toward the lower tier levels.

[Sandpit]

Dakota1000, on 31 December 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

I got to say I mostly just agree with his third point. In Tier 3 you play with all the tiers anyway, that would be considered "all mixed up." Whats the point of a tier system when you can go against anyone anyway. This is mostly only a Tier 3 issue though, however reducing it to only battling your tier and the adjacent would help out in my opinion.

you don't play all "mixed up"
It's not like you play with Tier 5 players on your team against Tier 1 and 2 players.

The only adjustment I see that I would make in this regard would be adjusting it to a +-1 instead of 2

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

you don't play all "mixed up"
It's not like you play with Tier 5 players on your team against Tier 1 and 2 players.

The only adjustment I see that I would make in this regard would be adjusting it to a +-1 instead of 2

I know you wouldn't have T5 on your team and T1 on the other, but its just a bit jarring between matches when you never have any idea whats going to happen and if you are going to be running a quick stomp in tier 1 or if the game is going to shotgun all over the place in a tier 5 level game. Its honestly one of the reasons I've been wanting to keep going up, I was in T3 like a month or two ago.

[Sandpit]

Dakota1000, on 31 December 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

I know you wouldn't have T5 on your team and T1 on the other, but its just a bit jarring between matches when you never have any idea whats going to happen and if you are going to be running a quick stomp in tier 1 or if the game is going to shotgun all over the place in a tier 5 level game. Its honestly one of the reasons I've been wanting to keep going up, I was in T3 like a month or two ago.

The major downside to +-1 is taht the ends of the tiers get screwed in population sizes to start games.
Tiers 5 and 1 only have two tiers to pull from for games and that could be a major issue which is why it's +-2 now

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

The major downside to +-1 is taht the ends of the tiers get screwed in population sizes to start games.
Tiers 5 and 1 only have two tiers to pull from for games and that could be a major issue which is why it's +-2 now

Yeah, guess thats an issue, I know some who'd make the switch in a heartbeat, but I can't speak for all.

[adamts01]

The Atlas Overlord, on 31 December 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

2) No it's not.

Aka, you're full of it.

Sandpit, on 31 December 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

• ?? uh... no it's not. Dont' know where you got this info from but it's wrong

Referring to moving down...
I spent about 12 in a splat T-wolf, hitting override, charging, and dieing in about 30 seconds after match start.
I spent 4 hours with nothing but 3 tags and a flamer in a jenner.
another 12 hours wth nothing but flamers, between my Nova and Firestarter.
Then another 20 hours running no armor on various mechs.

I have a ridiculous amount of time on my hands and I was on a mission. I managed to drop just a sliver below maxed on tier 1.

And that was REALLY trying.

Based off of that, You'd really have to sabotage your game to drop a tier, and I'm sure you'd be banned long before it would happen. I was careful to try my best to contribute with 12 flamers, but I know for a fact I have a mountain of reports against me already.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

adamts01, on 31 December 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

Referring to moving down...
I spent about 12 in a splat T-wolf, hitting override, charging, and dieing in about 30 seconds after match start.
I spent 4 hours with nothing but 3 tags and a flamer in a jenner.
another 12 hours wth nothing but flamers, between my Nova and Firestarter.
Then another 20 hours running no armor on various mechs.

I have a ridiculous amount of time on my hands and I was on a mission. I managed to drop just a sliver below maxed on tier 1.

And that was REALLY trying.

Based off of that, You'd really have to sabotage your game to drop a tier, and I'm sure you'd be banned long before it would happen. I was careful to try my best to contribute with 12 flamers, but I know for a fact I have a mountain of reports against me already.

You are telling me that while only using a flamer and 3 tag lasers in a Jenner you managed to still not be nearly the detriment to your team that some players are running some of the best builds out there.

Considering in the lower tiers most people will shoot you in the back, repeatedly alpha teammates who overheat in brawls, run in and die without even getting off a single shot that hit an enemy maybe you in particular just won't move down in tiers, a good amount of people don't move down in tiers, but back when we started people off in T4, we still had a T5 meaning that some people do move down. Now that we start people in T5 we still have people who just don't move up.

[adamts01]

Dakota1000, on 31 December 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

You are telling me that while only using a flamer and 3 tag lasers in a Jenner you managed to still not be nearly the detriment to your team that some players are running some of the best builds out there.

Considering in the lower tiers most people will shoot you in the back, repeatedly alpha teammates who overheat in brawls, run in and die without even getting off a single shot that hit an enemy maybe you in particular just won't move down in tiers, a good amount of people don't move down in tiers, but back when we started people off in T4, we still had a T5 meaning that some people do move down. Now that we start people in T5 we still have people who just don't move up.

Very good point about there being tier 5s before players were started there.

I just can't imagine not having my account shut down before actually dropping to tier 4. It took sooooo much work, over almost 2 weeks, to get my bar to the "1" in "tier 1."

Either way, not dropping me down a tier after 2 weeks of no kills, probably few wins (I bailed after death to get as many bad games as possible), and sub 100 damage as a tier 1 is a joke.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

adamts01, on 31 December 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

Very good point about there being tier 5s before players were started there.

I just can't imagine not having my account shut down before actually dropping to tier 4. It took sooooo much work, over almost 2 weeks, to get my bar to the "1" in "tier 1."

Either way, not dropping me down a tier after 2 weeks of no kills, probably few wins (I bailed after death to get as many bad games as possible), and sub 100 damage as a tier 1 is a joke.

I think also the more matches you have the more it takes to move your bar. Someone in T1 would have played a load of matches, you said you have a load of freetime. For each of those hours you spent trying to go down in tier you probably had ten times that in which you were moving up. It also explains how quickly new players get out of the lower tiers. Its been said that a single good match on your first try and get you through a tier and a half.

[Nightmare1]

Render, on 31 December 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

We need a better way to match people than KDR
http://imagizer.imag.../695/QQpc8D.jpg

I have 12 assists, 2 Most damage done and a nice chunk of damage.
Did this improve my Kill Death Ratio? ...No.
Although this is an extreme example I would say Most of the time this holds true for me personally.
I almost always have several assists and a few Kill most damage.
so... it is a real bummer when I look at my KDR.

then I think... is this what the MM is using? I hope not.
If so we need something better.

The MM does not use KDR, nor has it ever done so to the best of my knowledge. KDR is simply a personal tool to help you measure your own success.

[adamts01]

Dakota1000, on 31 December 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

I think also the more matches you have the more it takes to move your bar. Someone in T1 would have played a load of matches, you said you have a load of freetime. For each of those hours you spent trying to go down in tier you probably had ten times that in which you were moving up. It also explains how quickly new players get out of the lower tiers. Its been said that a single good match on your first try and get you through a tier and a half.

It sounds like they made moving up harder. I didn't have electricity for 10 months and came back to MWO in October. I played a ton when I got an internet connection and made tier 1 in a week.

Either way, playing as bad as I did for 2 weeks and not moving down is a giant fail for PSR in my book. I literally moved down 1/30th of a tier, that's just a joke. Gameplay took a giant nosedive about 2 weeks after Steam. I hear plenty of experienced players talk about not moving up, so maybe there are just too many loopholes letting the bads in to tier 3. I think the way they rate players and then mix them in game is a joke.

[Sandpit]

adamts01, on 31 December 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

It sounds like they made moving up harder. I didn't have electricity for 10 months and came back to MWO in October. I played a ton when I got an internet connection and made tier 1 in a week.

Either way, playing as bad as I did for 2 weeks and not moving down is a giant fail for PSR in my book. I literally moved down 1/30th of a tier, that's just a joke. Gameplay took a giant nosedive about 2 weeks after Steam. I hear plenty of experienced players talk about not moving up, so maybe there are just too many loopholes letting the bads in to tier 3. I think the way they rate players and then mix them in game is a joke.

I think it has to do more with population sizes. The population grows, the more people are on the curve, the harder it is to advance. I dont' know if that's figured into calculations though

[adamts01]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

I think it has to do more with population sizes. The population grows, the more people are on the curve, the harder it is to advance. I dont' know if that's figured into calculations though

That's a possibility. I've never heard anything mentioned about your score being considered against an average though. That would be a better way to do it than an xp bar. I'd rather see the population divided in 20% chunks and only play against you're own group. What we have now is pretty sad.

[Sandpit]

adamts01, on 31 December 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

That's a possibility. I've never heard anything mentioned about your score being considered against an average though. That would be a better way to do it than an xp bar. I'd rather see the population divided in 20% chunks and only play against you're own group. What we have now is pretty sad.

yea, kinda like how Blizzard does their ladders in SC2

[DAYLEET]

Monkey Lover, on 31 December 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

No real players care about kdr.

I like stats, more stats is always welcome.

they tell you fun things,

for exemple, mech with a lot of matches played, there's my KGC-000 with a 2.0 win ratio but 0.70 kdr, my CDA3F has 1.71 win ratio but only 0.67 KDR.

Then theres my SMN-B that has a 0.80 win ratio and 1.73KDR and my Ilya with a win ratio of 0.70 but KDR of 2.11

AND THEN theres my SCR-C with a win ratio of 3.0 and a KDR of 16. ofcourse the number of match is super low but no one needs to know that!

adamts01, on 31 December 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

Based off of that, You'd really have to sabotage your game to drop a tier, and I'm sure you'd be banned long before it would happen. I was careful to try my best to contribute with 12 flamers, but I know for a fact I have a mountain of reports against me already.

The T1 xp bar has a lot of numbers right, so logically, you would need to drop a **** load and i mean an insane amount of point consistently to drop. The MM is right in seeing you "fail" 20 times in a row and not droping you to T5 and rather lowering your score meaninglessly because you got up there and arent T5 material, even if you try. You can't cheat the system in any fast way unless you are t4, isnt that wonderful?

Edited by DAYLEET, 31 December 2015 - 11:21 PM.

[Hawk_eye]

Random Carnage, on 31 December 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

Good luck getting a match. T1 players will need a good book handy while waiting for sufficient numbers to make a game.
T4 and T5 will have the same problem but for different reasons, with huge wait queues given 65% of the player base will be vying for these games.
There were at least 25000 accounts before Steam based on the stats from a recent event. Probably a lot more now, and mostly toward the lower tier levels.

1.
I said "similar tiers vs. each other", not "same" tier vs. each other (the 2-tier spread we currently have looks fine to me).
The whole point of my proposal would be to make PSR actually _mean_ something (since, from what I read, it currently doesn´t - but then, I´m tier-4, what do I know), like, a true leader-board or something.

2. As I said, I pulled the numbers out of my backside. But if you prefer, just assume 50k accounts and multiply all numbers by 10 - done.

3. You can either have match-maker try to put player of similar skill against each other or you can have match-maker to put people against each other as fast as possible.
But you can´t have it both ways (you know, the whole: "Can´t have your cake and eat it too" thingy)

Edited by Antecursor Venatus, 31 December 2015 - 11:23 PM.

[Clint Steel]

adamts01, on 31 December 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

I love the emphasis on winning. No matter how your contribute (damage, killing, scouting, drop commanding, distracting, providing ECM, good looking paint), many of these not measurable, if you consistently win you should move up.

The three problems are:

• It's too easy to move up
  
• It's impossible to move down
  
• Tiers are completely mixed up in matches anyway

I agree with your first point,
I'm pretty sure you can move down, otherwise we wouldn't have had tier 5 people before they defaulted new players to it.
Tiers are definitly not ALL mixed up, Start a new account if you don't believe me, there is a huge difference in the level of play from 5 to 3, and even from 3 to 2.

[adamts01]

Clint Steel, on 31 December 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

I agree with your first point,
I'm pretty sure you can move down, otherwise we wouldn't have had tier 5 people before they defaulted new players to it.
Tiers are definitly not ALL mixed up, Start a new account if you don't believe me, there is a huge difference in the level of play from 5 to 3, and even from 3 to 2.

Of course not "all" mixed up, but I was counter-sniped at 700+ meters with small lasers, SRMs and medium lasers all within an hour.... I actually took the time to explain the mistake to my enemy, but he kept going at it. That just shouldn't happen in a tier 1 game, at least not with such frequency.

Edit: As I mentioned earlier, I spent almost 2 weeks with no armor, trying to drop a tier. I had a life span of under 30 seconds, zero kills and sub 100 damage, and I barely took a sliver off of being maxed at tier 1.

Edited by adamts01, 31 December 2015 - 11:46 PM.