102 replies to this topic

[Dirt6]

I have decided to take a break from my normal good natured goofing around on the forums to create an actual serious thread that will likely be flamed. I find these forums to be essentially useless and function purely as a time sink to pretend to be accomplishing something but what the hey. I'll give it a go-around and explain how exactly the Clans collapsed in CW for those of you who don't understand.

First off it was a combination of:

1) Large merc units moving around
2) Clan being nerfed into the ground
3) Super powered IS mechs
4) SWOL allowing Clan Wolf to be obliterated while rapidly expanding our IS unit

Let me explain exactly how this went down. MS went to Steiner to attack and play against some of the best units in the game as well as experiment with the new IS quirks. 228 went to FRR shorly there after for similar reasons and to not flood the attack lanes. There was no coordination to do mass pug farming despite some paranoia here on the forums.

SWOL Wolf leadership largely decided they didn't want to start rolling around in the new LRM/SRM meta in clan and wanted to use the opportunity to farm cbills in the overpowered world of IS. Enter SWOL IS which was stategically seeded with around 36 our top players while Wolf SWOL effectively ended its mass defense of wolf space. Coordinated wolf resistance in CW effectively collapsed as at that point our normal SWOL 1-4 12 mans which held the Wolf Loyalist line were withdrawn. The wolf players were replaced with around 4 12 mans worth of IS players which was constantly being reinforce by new players being mass recruited from the FRR. This proved decisive in the collapse of the clans.

Now, to preemptively answer "SWOL sucks, they didn't do anything" crowd; yes, we have many many new players on trial mechs in both clan and IS. This has always been the case as we allow any level headed person into the unit that wants to learn to play the game. However, even the newest player on a trial mech can smash a group of pugs or 4 man assuming he is working with enough veteran players. Likewise our top level players are talented to the point they can carry our newer guys past even intermediate 12 mans.

So lets put this together now:

1) SWOL allows wolf to collapse (diverting most Wolf Pugs to defend Falcon space)
2) Jag and Bear are already gone
3) Falcon is alone against both FRR and Steiner which is now composed of MS, 228, and SWOL IS. KCOM, BO, and DW are top tier units but they do not have the size to stop this large of a group which also has a lot of talented players that can beat them. SWOL in particular was stomped hard by BO at various points given the number of new players joining the IS unit; however, we tied them down long enough our 2 other 12 mans got 4 wins in by the time they got one win against us.
4) SWOL leadership has large groups of newer wolf players attack Falcon space when they want to play CW at critical points to pull away KCom and other top units
5) All of clan space disappears within a week


All of this was done within the TOS but I hope most everyone agrees it is kind of lame. We're hoping this will lead to some major changes in Phase 3 that will lead to a functioning Merc system and something to actually reward loyalist players for.

We've enjoyed playing King Maker in this round of CW and look forward to causing even more good-natured mischief in the future. o7

I'm done now, feel free to flame below; I look forward to not responding.

P.S. There never was any grand consul of MS, 228, SWOL and others where we decided the best way to farm pugs and destroy the clans. CWI typical represents SWOLs interests with MS and I normally only talk to Antonius when we have some formal business to discuss in regards to a tournament or during an event like the march to Terra. I can't speak to the others but SWOL went out of our way to give the pugs at least 2 waves of straight up brawlers so they could all get their points for the tournament.

Edited by Greenduck, 31 December 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[Tyler Valentine]

Greenduck, on 31 December 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

First off it was a combination of:

1) Large merc units moving around

FTFY

[Mcgral18]

Isn't the reality that CW is pointless, and there's no reason to play?

We had a nice 26 planets in CW1...why bother doing that again to get nothing?
Oh, sorry, we got a nice little cockpit item:


Hurray...

[Elkfire]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

CW is pointless, and there's no reason to play

[Squirg]

You jerked off for so long you forgot the "how to fix it" part.

[Tyler Valentine]

McGral, are you Smoke Adders? I've been a diehard PUG since day one, I joined TAW for a minute (Critical Rocket fan) but they didn't CW enough for me. SA is literally the only other clan I've considered applying to because the members seem pretty F'in cool...

[Felicitatem Parco]

Greenduck, on 31 December 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

I have decided to take a break from my normal good natured goofing around on the forums to create an actual serious thread that will likely be flamed. I find these forums to be essentially useless and function purely as a time sink to pretend to be accomplishing something but what the hey. I'll give it a go-around and explain how exactly the Clans collapsed in CW for those of you who don't understand.

First off it was a combination of:

1) Large merc units moving around
2) Clan being nerfed into the ground
3) Super powered IS mechs
4) SWOL allowing Clan Wolf to be obliterated while rapidly expanding our IS unit

Let me explain exactly how this went down. MS went to Steiner to attack and play against some of the best units in the game as well as experiment with the new IS quirks. 228 went to FRR shorly there after for similar reasons and to not flood the attack lanes. There was no coordination to do mass pug farming despite some paranoia here on the forums.

SWOL Wolf leadership largely decided they didn't want to start rolling around in the new LRM/SRM meta in clan and wanted to use the opportunity to farm cbills in the overpowered world of IS. Enter SWOL IS which was stategically seeded with around 36 our top players while Wolf SWOL effectively ended its mass defense of wolf space. Coordinated wolf resistance in CW effectively collapsed as at that point our normal SWOL 1-4 12 mans which held the Wolf Loyalist line were withdrawn. The wolf players were replaced with around 4 12 mans worth of IS players which was constantly being reinforce by new players being mass recruited from the FRR. This proved decisive in the collapse of the clans.

Now, to preemptively answer "SWOL sucks, they didn't do anything" crowd; yes, we have many many new players on trial mechs in both clan and IS. This has always been the case as we allow any level headed person into the unit that wants to learn to play the game. However, even the newest player on a trial mech can smash a group of pugs or 4 man assuming he is working with enough veteran players. Likewise our top level players are talented to the point they can carry our newer guys past even intermediate 12 mans.

So lets put this together now:

1) SWOL allows wolf to collapse (diverting most Wolf Pugs to defend Falcon space)
2) Jag and Bear are already gone
3) Falcon is alone against both FRR and Steiner which is now composed of MS, 228, and SWOL IS. KCOM, BO, and DW are top tier units but they do not have the size to stop this large of a group which also has a lot of talented players that can beat them. SWOL in particular was stomped hard by BO at various points given the number of new players joining the IS unit; however, we tied them down long enough our 2 other 12 mans got 4 wins in by the time they got one win against us.
4) SWOL leadership has large groups of newer wolf players attack Falcon space when they want to play CW at critical points to pull away KCom and other top units
5) All of clan space disappears within a week


All of this was done within the TOS but I hope most everyone agrees it is kind of lame. We're hoping this will lead to some major changes in Phase 3 that will lead to a functioning Merc system and something to actually reward loyalist players for.

We've enjoyed playing King Maker in this round of CW and look forward to causing even more good-natured mischief in the future. o7

I'm done now, feel free to flame below; I look forward to not responding.

P.S. There never was any grand consul of MS, 228, SWOL and others where we decided the best way to farm pugs and destroy the clans. CWI typical represents SWOLs interests with MS and I normally only talk to Antonius when we have some formal business to discuss in regards to a tournament or during an event like the march to Terra. I can't speak to the others but SWOL went out of our way to give the pugs at least 2 waves of straight up brawlers so they could all get their points for the tournament.

You forgot the How To Fx It part...

The How To Fix It part can be the hardest part. How do you stop units from switching when they want to? You can't.

We would need a system where Mercenaries get paid by their employing faction, and pay-out has to inversely related to the size of that faction's holdings. A large faction should be paying little because they are not at risk of collapse. Small factions should be paying buckets to Mercs out of desperation.

This would help. It can be a dynamic formula that's automatically applied whenever a ceasefire takes place.

Also, switching from Clan to IS (and reverse) should result in a Merc company's global payout reduction for a period of time, since your unit is technically untrustworthy and nobody pays big bucks right off the bat to someone unloyal and untrustworthy.

[Monkey Lover]

Lol another if clans are not over the top op no one will play clans thread.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Prosperity Park, on 31 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

The How To Fix It part can be the hardest part. How do you stop units from switching when they want to? You can't.

Its obvious by now that untis are going to game the system. So the fix, whatever it is, should revolve around rewarding them heavily for playing CW how PGI wants. Negative mods won't work. PGI has to find a solution that entices the larger units to even up sides.

[Kraftwerkedup]

World War II Online/Battleground Europe had this exact same problem and never fixed it, until it finally killed the game.

Their solution was to penalize large units and players with all sorts of things trying to stop what obviously people who want to win and point out flaws in the system are going to do.

More carrot less stick. You have to make it rewarding.

Its PGI tho. CW is worthless and not worth playing. Period. Phase 3 wont fix that. Theyre incompetent.

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

Isn't the reality that CW is pointless, and there's no reason to play?

We had a nice 26 planets in CW1...why bother doing that again to get nothing?
Oh, sorry, we got a nice little cockpit item:


Hurray...

this right here pretty well sums it up.

CW is an open sandbox with no direction, no guidance, no assistance, it's impossibly difficult for new players to navigate
You earn nothing "special" except LP which, really aren't needed and if you want to be a loyalist your'e screwed once you cap out your faction's LP ladder, there's no goal.

Turn CW into seasons
PGI control the map boarders and attack/defend avenues
Add in monthly tournies like Tuk (except represent other lore battles from the history of the IS wars and clan invasion)
Make each season end with the battle of Tuk.

That's all that really needs to be done to vastly improve what CW is now (this is not including the upcoming stuff for Phase 3, these are all simple things PGI could do today without any extra coding)

All the "depth" in the world (Phase 3 maybe?) isn't going to change the fact that at the end of the match, the only difference is you've maybe changed the color of a planet and climbed an LP ladder that really doesn't matter much.

Prosperity Park, on 31 December 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

The How To Fix It part can be the hardest part. How do you stop units from switching when they want to? You can't.

yes you can
each season players pick a side, either IS or clan. They can jump units on that side but can't switch sides until the season is over.
Implement steeper penalties for ending a contract early.

Problem solved.

[MischiefSC]

No.

It was not mech balance, it was players throwing a fit about mech balance not being in their favor anymore.

So they flounced off. Threw a fit and flounced. Not just SWOL, plenty of other Clan players and units left to "prove" that the game is bad when Clans are not op.

Problem is that in regular play it's pretty obvious that at least on the handful of quirked up mechs balance is very even. Sub-par Clan mechs are still better than sub-par IS mechs but in the context of CW it's probably the closest to balanced it's ever going to be.

The problem is that the bulk of Clan players, when push came to shove, only played Clans because they were better.

You can't balance a game around a bunch of players only wanting to play when the game balance is skewed in their favor. This isn't an insult or ad hominem it's an observation of what actually happened. As soon as balance got close to even the bulk of Clan players left - in a huff. That's not a game problem it's a player problem.

I say leave it. Population will equalize over time as people look for matches. If SWOL never comes back to CW then Clan Wolf will fill with people who want to play there anyway and they'll win or lose more on their actual game performance than game tech imbalances.

SWOL can stay or go, that in no way, shape or form should be a serious factor in game mechanics.

[sycocys]

Mercs moving is the only reason.

The rest of your argument relies on the importance of SWOL, which really isn't that much beyond the fact they have a lot of members that moved. The 1-2 solid groups your unit can field really isn't nearly the game changer you want to believe it is.

Edited by sycocys, 31 December 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[Hillslam]

PVE could replace the current tournamen... I mean community warfare with a legitimate strategy and ops shell game.

Its not like PVE is the death of revenue. WoW, GW, NVw all the big MMOs have figured it out. Imagine "questing" on tactical missions with your unit.

This game could be so much more.

I no longer care about clan to IS balance.

[Mcgral18]

Tyler Valentine, on 31 December 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

McGral, are you Smoke Adders? I've been a diehard PUG since day one, I joined TAW for a minute (Critical Rocket fan) but they didn't CW enough for me. SA is literally the only other clan I've considered applying to because the members seem pretty F'in cool...

Yeah

They're a nice group, but I know I haven't been doing much CW lately, not sure about the group as a whole.

Join them on Strana Mechty if you want to play, they're an open group.

Server: STRANAMECHTY.INFO
Pass: StranaMechty
(note the Caps)

[Kraftwerkedup]

As great as I think all of this is...

It IS fundamentally flawed to say IS mechs are OP, then play IS mechs.

Of course a large group of great players can win. They can probably win in bad mechs.

If they couldnt win in Clan Mechs...THEN id say IS is OP.

Balance has its problems, but its not really clam vs IS. Its one weapon system or another against another. MGs are useless for instance. On some quirked mechs, SRMs or LLasers are OP.

Having a bunch of great players drop in great mechs against a bunch of players who arent that great...isnt proving anything but that the great players are great.

Do it in Vindicators, or lose horribly while using the Holy Trinity...then youre on to something with balance.

You kind of have to ignore the SWOL bias in that regard.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 31 December 2015 - 04:02 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The Clans collapsed because the very reason for their existence was a farce and their system of government was as corrupt as it was backwards, based entirely on emotions and knee-jerk reactions instead of long-term logistics and planning.

Oh, we're talking about the game?

IS OP!

[Felicitatem Parco]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

yes you can
each season players pick a side, either IS or clan. They can jump units on that side but can't switch sides until the season is over.
Implement steeper penalties for ending a contract early.

Problem solved.

So, eliminate all short-term contracts, and make contract breaches very severe? So when a Merc unit wants to play a different faction within the same month, they either don't play (which reduces the server population and hurts the game) or they use their alt. accounts to circumvent the blockage.

That's not the way to do it. Locking people harder into long-term contracts will make them less happy.
If you want to balance things against the mobile hordes of Mercenaries, you have to buff their opponents' factions. As one Merc group leaves a house/Clan, then rewards for the remaining house/Clan members should increase. Also, if that house/Clan has a small territory, then rewards should further increase.

Using paperwork and administrative contracts is not the ideal solution. I prefer just throwing cash at the problem and letting it solve itself.

[Novakaine]

P.S. There never was any grand consul of MS, 228, SWOL and others where we decided the best way to farm pugs and destroy the clans. CWI typical represents SWOLs interests with MS and I normally only talk to Antonius when we have some formal business to discuss in regards to a tournament or during an event like the march to Terra. I can't speak to the others but SWOL went out of our way to give the pugs at least 2 waves of straight up brawlers so they could all get their points for the tournament.

Really?
They said otherwise.

[Sandpit]

Prosperity Park, on 31 December 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

So, eliminate all short-term contracts, and make contract breaches very severe? So when a Merc unit wants to play a different faction within the same month, they either don't play (which reduces the server population and hurts the game) or they use their alt. accounts to circumvent the blockage.

That's not the way to do it. Locking people harder into long-term contracts will make them less happy.
If you want to balance things against the mobile hordes of Mercenaries, you have to buff their opponents' factions. As one Merc group leaves a house/Clan, then rewards for the remaining house/Clan members should increase. Also, if that house/Clan has a small territory, then rewards should further increase.

Using paperwork and administrative contracts is not the ideal solution. I prefer just throwing cash at the problem and letting it solve itself.

that's not what I said
I said increase penalties, I never mentioned anywhere anything about short-term contracts. anywhere.
Want to jump around a lot? Fine, take shorter contracts.
Stop the jumping sides. No starting IS then going Clan during CW. You choose one or the other per season of CW. It's really very simple and solves all of these issues.

I still dont' know where your'e getting this whole "short term contract" thing since I mentioned absolutely nothing about short-term contracts.