180 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 02 January 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

3. I personally think Black Knights make bad snipers. Grasshopper 5P on the other hand...

Until someone humps you... the 5N is better IMO (5H is alright too).

Edited by Deathlike, 02 January 2016 - 07:44 PM.

[The Image]

From someone else's post in another thread:

Quote

Weapon - Base Range - Module 5 Increase + 25% Quirk
SL - 270 + 27 + 67.5 = 364.5 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 360 (396 w/Level 5 module, 423 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
ML - 540 + 54 + 135 = 729 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 688 (756.8 w/Level 5 module, 808.4 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
LL - 900 + 90 + 225 = 1215 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1480 (1628 w/Level 5 module, 1739 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage

ERLL - 1350 + 135 + 337.5 = 1822.5 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1480 (1628 w/Level 5 module) - IS Range Advantage

SPL - 220 + 22 + 55 = 297 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 297 (326.7 w/Level 5 module, 319.25 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
MPL - 440 + 44 + 110 = 594 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 561 (617.1 w/Level 5 module, 659.175 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
LPL - 730 + 73 + 182.5 = 985.5 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1200 (1320 w/Level 5 module, 1410 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage

PPC - 1080 + 108 + 270 = 1485 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1620 (1782 w/Level 5 module, 1903 w/TC7) - Clan Advantage
ERPPC - 1620 + 162 + 405 = 2187 vs. (Clan BASE, non-moduled range) = 1620 (1782 w/Level 5 module, 1903 w/TC7) - IS Range Advantage

[Deathlike]

To be fair, TC above level 1 is usually not used.

[DrxAbstract]

Dakota1000, on 02 January 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

This is without factoring in that some IS builds do use STD engines because they can afford to run them and still have great cooling and a proper laser boating build. Infact, after eliting my Black Knights I swapped from XL360s to STD 320s while keeping the build pretty similiar.

XL360 with 4 DHS in it weighs 27.5 Tons while an STD320 by itself weighs 29.5 Tons--how 'pretty similar' are we talking here? Because that looks like a massive decrease across the board just to use a 'smaller' STD engine in a Mech that still handles like a tractor trailer when using the largest engine possible.

Anywho, far as I can see is that, while only a handful of IS mechs can outrange Clans, I don't think anyone is realistically disputing some IS Mechs are better at sniping than Clans, but that a CW drop deck allows every person on the IS team to use them several times over since you can bring copies of the same Mech variant as long as you have more than 1 and more than just a couple people are bringing them.

In puglandia quickplay this isnt really an issue because you'll run into 1, maybe 2 dedicated snipers using these builds. Charge their team and fight as usual. In CW you could be facing 8, 10, even a full team of 12 of them once, twice or even all four drops. Which means the first people exposed usually take critical levels of damage, especially if it's an organized team focusing fire, while you're still far beyond the effective combat range of 80% of your firepower. /shrug

One or two Mechs having this potential isnt and never was the problem; The problem is the same as stacking any other Mechs of extreme-niche usefulness, just like having a full 12man wave of SRM Timbies, Streak Crows/Dogs, LRM60 Warhawks with Narc taggers, Thunderwubs, Light rushes, etc.

[The Image]

Deathlike, on 02 January 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

To be fair, TC above level 1 is usually not used.

Granted but you'll note that for the most part, even without TC, Clans have a range advantage.

[Alienized]

DrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

Which means the first people exposed usually take critical levels of damage, especially if it's an organized team focusing fire, while you're still far beyond the effective combat range of 80% of your firepower. /shrug

well, thats exactly how the IS felt for a awfully long time. not even able to open the gates on boreal to all that ER large/pulse laser spammage we could not reach.
we got told to adapt. time for clans to do it.

[Hit the Deck]

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

Granted but you'll note that for the most part, even without TC, Clans have a range advantage.

That's not true when discussing ER Large Lasers and +25% and above to laser range quirks....

For example, you could load up an X-5 with 3ERLL and it can shoot from 911.25 optimal range. The pilot will probably put ERLL range module to bump the range even further on this dedicated laser sniper.

And when this Mech pew-pewing you at ranges not even your radar can pick up while you are busy playing peek-a-boo with the closing enemy main force... you'll feel the rage1!!

Edited by Hit the Deck, 02 January 2016 - 08:56 PM.

[DjPush]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

How exactly do IS mechs outrange Clans?
No one ever uses IS ER-LLs except, maybe, for sniper Ravens. Those are not a formidable force by any stretch of imagination.

There are several IS mechs with 930m + ERLL range and heat gen quirks and they are used very often.

[The Image]

Hit the Deck, on 02 January 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

That's not true when discussing ER Large Lasers and +25% and above to laser range quirks....

For example, you could load up an X-5 with 3ERLL and it can shoot from 911.25 optimal range. The pilot will probably put ERLL range module to bump the range even further on this dedicated laser sniper.

Not every mech IS has 25% quirk, but of the quirks that seems to be the highest of the non-light mechs (maybe I missed a medium with a quirk bigger than 25%), that and the X5 is a Hero, so not everyone has one of those either.

But just the base range, plus mods of Clan weapons is significantly further than the majority of IS 'mechs base range, plus mods.

Only TWO weapon systems, among those 'mechs quirked for it, can exceed Clan ranges.

Given that clan weapons are harder hitting, smaller, and lighter... SOMETHING needs to be done for balance.

[Hit the Deck]

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 08:53 PM, said:

Not every mech IS has 25% quirk, but of the quirks that seems to be the highest of the non-light mechs (maybe I missed a medium with a quirk bigger than 25%), that and the X5 is a Hero, so not everyone has one of those either.

But just the base range, plus mods of Clan weapons is significantly further than the majority of IS 'mechs base range, plus mods.

Only TWO weapon systems, among those 'mechs quirked for it, can exceed Clan ranges.

Given that clan weapons are harder hitting, smaller, and lighter... SOMETHING needs to be done for balance.

ITT I'm talking about annoying, not-even-your-radar can pickup, at the back of the enemy main force, precise, dedicated lazor sniper Mechs.

[DrxAbstract]

Alienized, on 02 January 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

well, thats exactly how the IS felt for a awfully long time. not even able to open the gates on boreal to all that ER large/pulse laser spammage we could not reach.
we got told to adapt. time for clans to do it.

Did you actually have a point or was quoting my words out of context to serve as a launchpad for your misplaced verbal vengeance it?

[Scar Glamour]

MonkeyCheese, on 02 January 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

Do you even CW?

You mean that thing where you have to wait for half an hour to end up in a PUG against a premade?
I'll pass on that, thank you very much.

Aresye Kerensky, on 02 January 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

911m Effective WVR-6K:
http://www.twitch.tv...sguy/v/32568574

Point taken. However, the problem here is hardly the extra 150m of extra range, it's the 3xERLL vs 2xC-ERLL ghost heat threshold.

[VinJade]

the problem is that there is no easy way to combat the tech dif be it range, heat, damage, mass.
the game does not come any where close of being able to do so no matter how hard they try.

in all things the clans had advantages as they had earned them in lore because remember the IS was(and still are if one thinks about it) idiots and destroyed their own tech level. and since people love to throw it in Battletech players faces that mechwarrior Online isn't battletech then the only way to take this advantage away from them is to make every single weapon the same damage & range.

only thing the clans would have going for them is their mass and crit while being slightly hotter but outside of that the weapons would be identical. also get rid of all the quirks both negative & positive across the board.

there problem solved.

[The Image]

Hit the Deck, on 02 January 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:

ITT I'm talking about annoying, not-even-your-radar can pickup, at the back of the enemy main force, precise, dedicated lazor sniper Mechs.

The 40% quirked Locusts?

LOL, ok.

Annoying yes... Big worry? Not usually...

[Hit the Deck]

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

The 40% quirked Locusts?

LOL, ok.

Annoying yes... Big worry? Not usually...

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

The 40% quirked Locusts?

LOL, ok.

Annoying yes... Big worry? Not usually...

They suppress you and your teammates so you just sit there while the enemies advance towards you....

[DrxAbstract]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

Point taken. However, the problem here is hardly the extra 150m of extra range, it's the 3xERLL vs 2xC-ERLL ghost heat threshold.

What in the... You think

15 Tons, 6 Slots, 3 E-Hardpoints and 24 Heat for 27 Damage
vs.
8 Tons, 2 Slots, 2 E-Hardpoints and 20 Heat for 22 Damage

Is the problem? I don't even...

No.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 02 January 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

The speed differences between IS and Clan aren't all that much, a sniper can just as easily reposition as you could run up on his location. I especially notice a lot of light mechs for IS moving considerably faster than the ACH. My Black Knights I keep going over 80KPH at any given time which keeps up with the clanners nicely. Just look at the Battlemaster, that thing is an assault that gets over 80kph depending on loadout.

CLPLs have around 50% less range than a quirked up IS mech and still are only about 0.2 seconds shorter than IS-ERLLs without any duration quirks. Also only two can be fired at once instead of 3. The range matters a lot in CW mostly on lone mechs that stick away from the main group but support it from approximately a 1 KM distance where sensors don't pick him up and most lasers can't damage him and the ones that do deal greatly reduced damage while he pumps out nearly full damage alphas.

Black Knights aren't the best of snipers, but that was just an example of a mech I swapped to STD engines in. There are a considerable amount of mechs that are quirked for sniping and have good STD builds. You even thought of one in your own post.

I play tons of Battlemasters and I tell you that if a Battlemaster is running at 80kph, then he is using XL engine, in which case not only he is being slower than a Timberwolf, he is also more fragile than a Timberwolf, validating my first post. Besides, being forced to reposition means it is not doing the sniping.

Hit the Deck, on 02 January 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

They suppress you and your teammates so you just sit there while the enemies advance towards you....

Works against pugs maybe. I just shrug it off.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 January 2016 - 09:25 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

El Bandito, on 02 January 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

...
Works against pugs maybe. I just shrug it off.

How to shrug it off? Every time you peek to see how the enemies advance, blue lazor beams are blasting your face doing full damage.

[Aresye]

DrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

What in the... You think

15 Tons, 6 Slots, 3 E-Hardpoints and 24 Heat for 27 Damage
vs.
8 Tons, 2 Slots, 2 E-Hardpoints and 20 Heat for 22 Damage

Is the problem? I don't even...

No.

The problem with this argument is that IS mechs are able to be customized in a way where the weight and tonnage differences no longer end up being a hindrance because of quirks. The QKD-5K can easily do 4 ERLL with better cooling, shorter duration, and longer range than a 4 CERLL HBR, TBR, or EBJ.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 02 January 2016 - 09:31 PM.

[Scar Glamour]

DrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

What in the... You think

15 Tons, 6 Slots, 3 E-Hardpoints and 24 Heat for 27 Damage
vs.
8 Tons, 2 Slots, 2 E-Hardpoints and 20 Heat for 22 Damage

Is the problem? I don't even...

No.

That's an excellent way to misrepresent it, buddy. I might not do CW, but I do Math.

27 Damage over 1.25 sec (1 sec with the right quirks)
vs.
22 Damage over 1.5 sec

That's 21.6 (27 with 20% duration quirk) DPS for IS over 14.7 DPS for Clan.

Don't even try to tell me that it doesn't matter.

Edited by Winterburn, 02 January 2016 - 09:36 PM.