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When Did That Happen?


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#61 The Image

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 10:49 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 02 January 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:



See above
No, you guys are using examples of 'mechs with 15% range quirks and 15% duration quirks as being a significant threat, so 1350 meters, plus 15% quirk 202.5, plus 10% range module 135 = 1687.5

Clan ER large of 1480, plus 10% range module 148 = 1628.

So at least without investing in a TC, IS has a range advantage (but is behind in damage, has a larger, heavier version the ERLL, PLUS, has larger DHS's, PLUS can't really run an XL without sacrificing significant durability).

However, I think the TC3 puts the range advantage back into the Clan advantage (adds 62.9 meters, for a max range of 1690.9), plus all the other nice benefits of the TC3 as well...

I dunno, I'm thinking at least at 15% Clanners still have a significant advantage...


#62 Mcgral18

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 10:56 PM

View PostDrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

No, you guys are using examples of 'mechs with 15% range quirks and 15% duration quirks as being a significant threat, so 1350 meters, plus 15% quirk 202.5, plus 10% range module 135 = 1687.5

Clan ER large of 1480, plus 10% range module 148 = 1628.

So at least without investing in a TC, IS has a range advantage (but is behind in damage, has a larger, heavier version the ERLL, PLUS, has larger DHS's, PLUS can't really run an XL without sacrificing significant durability).

However, I think the TC3 puts the range advantage back into the Clan advantage (adds 62.9 meters, for a max range of 1690.9), plus all the other nice benefits of the TC3 as well...

I dunno, I'm thinking at least at 15% Clanners still have a significant advantage...

View PostMcgral18, on 02 January 2016 - 09:39 PM, said:


When they say range, they mean RANGE. Not short range (sub 200M SPLs) but nearly 2KM range ERLLs.

The BattleMaster 1S gets the 25% range, plus 10% from the module, for 675*1.35=911M, or reaching to 1800M.

4 high mounted lasers, with 21 DHS to keep it cool. That's with a large XL, but smaller STD could be done. Do it on the 1C for a tougher but shorter ranged robot.

With the 10% duration quirk, the IS lasers also deal more damage per tick (while vanilla, the Clam ERLL is slightly ahead, as is typical)


The IS does the range game better, between mounts and quirks.


25% range 10% mod, and 10% duration

More dam/tick than Clam lasers at greater range.

1800M VS 1600

#63 Khobai

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 10:59 PM

Quote

However, I think the TC3 puts the range advantage back into the Clan advantage (adds 62.9 meters, for a max range of 1690.9), plus all the other nice benefits of the TC3 as well...


Even TC7 doesnt give range advantage back to clans.

TC7 which is the highest you can go is only 7.5% range which is still a long ways off from the 15%-25% that IS mechs get from quirks.

But youre also talking about having to lug something around thats 7 tons and 7 crits too lol

Edited by Khobai, 02 January 2016 - 11:04 PM.


#64 DrxAbstract

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 11:02 PM

View PostWinterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

Care to elaborate? It really isn't hard to divide one integer over another. If you manage to come to different results using same damage and duration values, please, do demonstrate your mad algebra skills for all to see.

*sigh* Math is hard. It's not algebra.

Unmodified
27/ 1.25+3.25 = 6 DPS
22/ 1.5+3.25 = 4.632 DPS

Modified: -15% Cooldown, -15% Duration (TDR-5S)
27/ 1.0625+2.763 = 7.06 DPS

Almost twice the DPS, and yet when applied to the actual mechs: See below.

Quote

TDR-5S
vs.
HBR-PRIME

Bottom line?
ECM, 3 DHS, 12 kmph for 10.7451 DPS delta (that's a 73% increase) and slightly better range. I will leave the Math for you to figure out.

More realistically...
HBR-PRIME
vs.
TDR-5S

The bottom line is the TDR with all of its quirks can still only fire roughly half as much as the HBR before overheat for nearly the same damage (Making the Cooldown quirk relatively useless) which, again, the only real advantage is the beam duration. It also doesn't have ECM.

#65 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 11:04 PM

View PostKhobai, on 02 January 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:


Even TC7 doesnt give range advantage back to clans.


Not to mention 2 ERLLs plus a 7 ton targetting computer would be 15 tons, same as 3 IS ERLLs for less damage, longer beam durations, and same heat with longer range but more slots. IS uses quirks, can get less heat, longer range, even shorter durations, while still weighing the same, taking less slots, and doing more damage.

Of course no one takes a TC7 anyway because it really doesn't help that much in the long run.

#66 Khobai

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 11:09 PM

Well what do you expect PGI applied the same fail logic to targeting computers they applied to jumpjets

The concept of diminishing returns....

it should be the exact opposite. The more your tonnage/crit investment the bigger the bonuses should be.

#67 Moldur

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 11:19 PM

PGI failed when they made a game mode that nobody plays yet divides the community into inherently biased groups that use said mode as an argument for balance across the entire game, again I reiterate the fact that nobody plays said mode.

#68 Scar Glamour

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 11:25 PM

View PostDrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

*snip*

You trolling mate?

You must realize that sniping isn't a Mexican stand-off where you just face-tank damage until one of you falls over.

My IS beams do 73% more damage than your Clan beams for only 20% more heat. I won't be waiting for you to do all your damage, I'll duck behind cover and wait to recycle or cool off.

You can't be serious when you add cooldown to beam duration when calculating dps. You could just as well add your grandma's age to the number, it wouldn't make less sense even then.

Also Algebra. You should read about it. Fascinating stuff.

#69 DrxAbstract

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 11:37 PM

View PostWinterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

You trolling mate?

You must realize that sniping isn't a Mexican stand-off where you just face-tank damage until one of you falls over.

My IS beams do 73% more damage than your Clan beams for only 20% more heat. I won't be waiting for you to do all your damage, I'll duck behind cover and wait to recycle or cool off.

You can't be serious when you add cooldown to beam duration when calculating dps. You could just as well add your grandma's age to the number, it wouldn't make less sense even then.

Also Algebra. You should read about it. Fascinating stuff.

Read about it? Lol. You don't even realize you're dealing with Arithmetic, not Algebra.

Which doesn't really surprise me when you make statements like Cooldown not being a factor in determining DPS figures.

Edit: P.S. Your numbers are still wrong.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 02 January 2016 - 11:39 PM.


#70 Scar Glamour

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 11:50 PM

View PostDrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Read about it? Lol. You don't even realize you're dealing with Arithmetic, not Algebra.

2 + 2 = 4 is Arithmetic.
Damage / Duration = DPS is Algebra. Plugging in specific numbers doesn't make it Arithmetic. Geometry doesn't stop being Geometry when you find the hypotenuse of a specific triangle. Mathematical analysis does not stop being Mathematical analysis if you integrate the area under a specific curve.
It's not too late to learn. It's all in Wikipedia after all.

View PostDrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

Which doesn't really surprise me when you make statements like Cooldown not being a factor in determining DPS figures.

I see you conveniently forgot to read the explanation why calculating DPS over Duration + Cooldown makes zero sense. You may be obviously wrong, but at least you are very determined to stay that way despite any amount of evidence.
Well, good for you, I guess.

Edited by Winterburn, 02 January 2016 - 11:50 PM.


#71 Elizander

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 12:00 AM

Clans don't bring ERLL so obviously IS ERLL outranges their LPLs :P

#72 DrxAbstract

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 12:37 AM

View PostWinterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

2 + 2 = 4 is Arithmetic.
Damage / Duration = DPS is Algebra. Plugging in specific numbers doesn't make it Arithmetic. Geometry doesn't stop being Geometry when you find the hypotenuse of a specific triangle. Mathematical analysis does not stop being Mathematical analysis if you integrate the area under a specific curve.
It's not too late to learn. It's all in Wikipedia after all.

Lol... You really are clueless. It's almost endearing... Almost.
Algebra deals specifically with symbol-numeral substitutions, such as b=2+a (Hint: Algebra is what's used to find the Hypotenuse in Geometry - Which was a very, very poor and inaccurate attempt at making your point). We know what the Damage, Duration and Cooldown are. It's a simple matter of basic Arithmetic to determine the DPS. There are no symbol substitutions or variables, therefor by definition it is not Algebra. Forget Wiki and get yourself a real education.


Quote

I see you conveniently forgot to read the explanation why calculating DPS over Duration + Cooldown makes zero sense. You may be obviously wrong, but at least you are very determined to stay that way despite any amount of evidence.
Well, good for you, I guess.

You mean that drivel concerning irrelevant information and insultingly bad comparisons that amounted to the likes of nothing remotely resembling an explanation? Of course I ignored it. You dont know the difference between Algebra and Arithmetic so why bother trying to explain DPS vs DoT? Lol.

It makes zero sense to you because you have nfc what you're actually talking about. It's like trying to explain to you the 'Pull' door isn't opening because you're Pushing on it.

#73 Scar Glamour

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 12:43 AM

View PostDrxAbstract, on 03 January 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

*snip*

As I said, steadfast ignorance complete with flat-out denial of facts and off-hand attempts at gas-lighting is almost a thing to admire.

Almost.

#74 Aresye

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 12:46 AM

View PostDrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

Better cooling? - No. It has far fewer heat sinks. Perhaps less heat generation per shot, is what you meant?

Longer range? - 63 Meter difference is insignificant for long range weapons. Maybe if you were comparing ER Smalls to Smalls, 63 Meters would actually matter, given the theater in which the respective weapons operate.

The duration itself is the only notable advantage, and maybe cooldown which is entirely dependent on which specific Mech you use - comparing the most ideally quirked IS mechs against ANY Clan Mech.

Uggg, I was hoping I wouldn't have to use math, but here goes.

These numbers are based on the EBJ and HBR's performance as a CERLL boat, as they have high mounts and no negative quirks. The typical meta loadout for an EBJ/HBR CERLL boat is 4x CERLL, a TC Mk. I, and everything else being heat sinks.

EBJ Build: EBJ-PRIME
QKD-5K Build: QKD-5K

For the heat comparisons I will be using this tool, set to Forest Colony: http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/
Both mechs have their respective Range 5 modules.

Now for the actual numbers:

EBJ
Effective Range: 831m (740*1.1225)
Max. Range: 1661m (1480*1.1225)
Dmg per 1s (Full Alpha): 29.33
Dmg per 0.1s (Full Alpha): 2.93
Heat: 40
Ghost Heat Generated: 12
Total Heat: 52
Cooldown: 3.25s

QKD-5K
Effective Range: 878m (675*1.3)
Max. Range: 1755m (1350*1.3)
Dmg per 1s (Full Alpha): 32
Dmg per 0.1s (Full Alpha): 3.2
Heat: 28.8
Ghost Heat Generated: 9.6
Total Heat: 38.4
Cooldown: 2.76s

All numbers are with quirks applied (where applicable).

As you can see, the QKD-5K w/ 4 ERLL is superior in each and every way to an EBJ w/ 4 CERLL. It has more range, less duration, less heat, less ghost heat, higher damage per second, higher damage per 0.1s, and faster cooldown.

The QKD-5K also gets 76 points of extra structure, +25% Acceleration, +10% Deceleration, +10% Turn Rate, and +25% Torso Turn Rate (Yaw).

Hypothetical Scenario:
The QKD-5K needs to kill the EBJ via the CT, whereas the EBJ needs to kill the QKD-5K via either side torso. Assuming both pilots are standing within their effective range for full damage, and immediately firing at the completion of their cooldown, which mech will emerge victorious first?
*For the sake of this comparison, we're going to ignore heat because we already know the QKD-5K runs cooler and has a less punishing ghost heat penalty.

Using the above Smurfy links and their associated armor placement, here's what we're looking at:

EBJ CT Kill (Armor+Structure) = 120
QKD-5K LT/RT Kill (Armor+Structure+Structure Buff) = 92

TTK (QKD-5K killing EBJ via CT) = 12s
TTK (EBJ killing QKD-5K via LT/RT) = 9.6s

The EBJ comes out on top here, but we are comparing a full CT kill to ST kill. A better alternative would be for the QKD-5K to target the EBJ's LT, which houses 3 of 4 CERLLs, or (in other words) a Firepower Kill:

EBJ LT "Firepower" Kill (Armor+Structure) = 86
QKD-5K LT/RT Kill (Armor+Structure+Structure Buff) = 92

TTK (QKD-5K stripping EBJ via LT) = 8.2s
TTK (EBJ killing QKD-5K via LT/RT) = 9.6s

So with aiming at the LT, a QKD-5K will be able to strip a HBR/EBJ sniper of 75% of its weapons before it's even possible for the EBJ to kill it via one of the side torso XLs, and obviously once 3/4 of its weapons are gone, the TTK for the HBR to side-torso kill the QKD-5K will increase, due to only having a single CERLL left.

In a realistic setting (instead of this fake scenario w/ 2 braindead pilots), when you factor in heat, torso twisting, and utilizing cover during cooldowns, the QKD-5K has the clear advantage, due to shorter laser durations, and less heat.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 03 January 2016 - 12:49 AM.


#75 Y E O N N E

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 12:57 AM

Plot twist:

Maybe TCs should offer greater range increases and trade their crit-chance multipliers for duration buffs.

Just a thought.

#76 DrxAbstract

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 12:59 AM

View PostAresye Kerensky, on 03 January 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

Uggg, I was hoping I wouldn't have to use math, but here goes.

These numbers are based on the EBJ and HBR's performance as a CERLL boat, as they have high mounts and no negative quirks. The typical meta loadout for an EBJ/HBR CERLL boat is 4x CERLL, a TC Mk. I, and everything else being heat sinks.

EBJ Build: EBJ-PRIME
QKD-5K Build: QKD-5K

For the heat comparisons I will be using this tool, set to Forest Colony: http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/
Both mechs have their respective Range 5 modules.

Now for the actual numbers:

EBJ
Effective Range: 831m (740*1.1225)
Max. Range: 1661m (1480*1.1225)
Dmg per 1s (Full Alpha): 29.33
Dmg per 0.1s (Full Alpha): 2.93
Heat: 40
Ghost Heat Generated: 12
Total Heat: 52
Cooldown: 3.25s

QKD-5K
Effective Range: 878m (675*1.3)
Max. Range: 1755m (1350*1.3)
Dmg per 1s (Full Alpha): 32
Dmg per 0.1s (Full Alpha): 3.2
Heat: 28.8
Ghost Heat Generated: 9.6
Total Heat: 38.4
Cooldown: 2.76s

All numbers are with quirks applied (where applicable).

As you can see, the QKD-5K w/ 4 ERLL is superior in each and every way to an EBJ w/ 4 CERLL. It has more range, less duration, less heat, less ghost heat, higher damage per second, higher damage per 0.1s, and faster cooldown.

The QKD-5K also gets 76 points of extra structure, +25% Acceleration, +10% Deceleration, +10% Turn Rate, and +25% Torso Turn Rate (Yaw).

Hypothetical Scenario:
The QKD-5K needs to kill the EBJ via the CT, whereas the EBJ needs to kill the QKD-5K via either side torso. Assuming both pilots are standing within their effective range for full damage, and immediately firing at the completion of their cooldown, which mech will emerge victorious first?
*For the sake of this comparison, we're going to ignore heat because we already know the QKD-5K runs cooler and has a less punishing ghost heat penalty.

Using the above Smurfy links and their associated armor placement, here's what we're looking at:

EBJ CT Kill (Armor+Structure) = 120
QKD-5K LT/RT Kill (Armor+Structure+Structure Buff) = 92

TTK (QKD-5K killing EBJ via CT) = 12s
TTK (EBJ killing QKD-5K via LT/RT) = 9.6s

The EBJ comes out on top here, but we are comparing a full CT kill to ST kill. A better alternative would be for the QKD-5K to target the EBJ's LT, which houses 3 of 4 CERLLs, or (in other words) a Firepower Kill:

EBJ LT "Firepower" Kill (Armor+Structure) = 86
QKD-5K LT/RT Kill (Armor+Structure+Structure Buff) = 92

TTK (QKD-5K stripping EBJ via LT) = 8.2s
TTK (EBJ killing QKD-5K via LT/RT) = 9.6s

So with aiming at the LT, a QKD-5K will be able to strip a HBR/EBJ sniper of 75% of its weapons before it's even possible for the EBJ to kill it via one of the side torso XLs, and obviously once 3/4 of its weapons are gone, the TTK for the HBR to side-torso kill the QKD-5K will increase, due to only having a single CERLL left.

In a realistic setting (instead of this fake scenario w/ 2 braindead pilots), when you factor in heat, torso twisting, and utilizing cover during cooldowns, the QKD-5K has the clear advantage, due to shorter laser durations, and less heat.

So... What realistic vs. unrealistic builds are you going to compare next? My vote is for the Awesome with 3 PPCs vs the Warhawk with 6 PPCs... Because apparently someone that tries using a 4 ERLL EBJ isn't 'braindead'.

I'd imagine the Warhawk would lose as well, using as dumb a loadout as the EBJ was.

#77 Russhuster

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 01:02 AM

so what comparism would you suggest then?

#78 MechWarrior849305

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 01:06 AM

Oh, C'mon, this thread already!
I was going to switch side for IS to have advantage over clans in a week (when my current contract should be over). Don't give PGI some bad ideas to nerf IS inbefore I enjoyed IS Opness. Please, pretty please? Posted Image

#79 Russhuster

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 01:14 AM

nerf on IS ? that wont ever happen

keep cool blooded

but still i d be curious for DrxAbstract s ideas

Edited by Russhuster, 03 January 2016 - 01:16 AM.


#80 El Bandito

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 01:20 AM

View PostRusshuster, on 03 January 2016 - 01:14 AM, said:

nerf on IS ? that wont ever happen


Except high performing IS mechs such as 5SS, 1N, Grid Iron, 4J, Huginn, and 3S were all nerfed in the last quirkening.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 January 2016 - 01:25 AM.






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