180 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Khobai, on 02 January 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

thats 7 tons and 7 crits too

7 tons and 7 crits


7 tons and 7 crits

for 7.5%.....lolz

[DrxAbstract]

Russhuster, on 03 January 2016 - 01:02 AM, said:

so what comparism would you suggest then?

One that involves some modicum of intelligent consideration, preferably. When someone starts with 'lol alphaing same number of the same weapon' with IS vs. Clan tech it's pretty clear there wasn't much thought put into it. For starters, if the EBJ or HBR is in fact carrying 4 Larges, they're alternating 2-2 or 3-1. Coupled with their superior dissipation, they have nearly double the staying power of a Quickdraw. Not quite sure why you think an EBJ actually alphas all 4 at once when 3 is more than sufficient to maintain comparable damage and the EBJ is still firing while the Quickdraw had to find cover and cool down. Doesn't much matter if a Quickdraw can put out -slightly- more damage per shot in a -slightly- shorter amount of time when it has to cool off every 3 shots to the EBJ's 6. Even with excellent heat management and piloting, that Quickdraw is going to be running redline or spending a lot of time cooling off. Being a sniper isnt only about lolzallthedmg! It's also about being able suppress and overwhelm... The EBJ is far better at that than the Quickdraw.

But on principle the Awesome-8T is the best 'meta LL sniper' in the game because its quirks far surpass the Thunderbolt, Quickdraw, Stalker and Banshee... Them hardpoints, though.

[Revis Volek]

Winterburn, on 03 January 2016 - 12:43 AM, said:

As I said, steadfast ignorance complete with flat-out denial of facts and off-hand attempts at gas-lighting is almost a thing to admire.

Almost.

You wont convince this guy that A+B=C is also what we are using when we plug oh say....the DMG, HEAT and for you DURATION'S numbers of MULTIPLE MECHS or variable into ONE SINGLE equations.

Its algebra, you are straight up wrong. Just because the A's and X's have been replaced already with numbers doesn't mean you magically made it not algebra. Thats half the equation when solving algebra, find X.

Why im telling you this I have no idea....

[Khobai]

Quote

But on principle the Awesome-8T is the best 'meta LL sniper' in the game because its quirks far surpass the Thunderbolt, Quickdraw, Stalker and Banshee... Them hardpoints, though.

except its an awesome. which automatically prevents it from being the best at anything.

[MonkeyCheese]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

You mean that thing where you have to wait for half an hour to end up in a PUG against a premade?
I'll pass on that, thank you very much.

Then you have no right to comment about noone outside of trial ravens using the IS ERLL because EVERYONE DOES in community warfare/faction play.

For example just of the top of my head here are the mechs that run ERLLs in CW and it dose not matter if they are quirked for it or even run ballistics better(eg jagers)

-ravens, jenners, spiders, panthers, wolfhounds
-cicada, enforcer, hunchys, wolverine, shadowhawks, blackjacks (even the 6mg blackjacks run just 3LL </3 I died a little inside)
-dragons, grasshoppers, jagers, marauders, orions, quickdraws, thunderbolts
-atlas, awesome, banshee, battlemaster, kingcrab, stalker, zeus

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

How exactly do IS mechs outrange Clans?
No one ever uses IS ER-LLs except, maybe, for sniper Ravens. Those are not a formidable force by any stretch of imagination.

Now I know I myself dislike what CW has become and would much rather just play all those CW maps in the quickplay mode You woulnt be saying that if you actually tried to play CW as a clan when the "meta" teams just run EVERYTHING LARGE LASERS that outrange everything else.

Just because the IS laser range problem it is not as obvious in solo pugs or small group warfare doesn't mean its not true.
So much for lore making Clans have range with a penalty of crazy burn times.... IS get super quirks and the shorter burn time.


And dont mistake the clan badge, I have had plenty of time with both sides of the tech since closed beta.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 03 January 2016 - 02:06 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

DarthRevis, on 03 January 2016 - 01:49 AM, said:

You wont convince this guy that A+B=C is also what we are using when we plug oh say....the DMG, HEAT and for you DURATION'S numbers of MULTIPLE MECHS or variable into ONE SINGLE equations.

Its algebra, you are straight up wrong. Just because the A's and X's have been replaced already with numbers doesn't mean you magically made it not algebra. Thats half the equation when solving algebra, find X.

Why im telling you this I have no idea....

And this is where people usually get tied up...

The problem is Damage divided by Duration and Cooldown. These numbers are known and factual, therefor simple Arithmetic is used to solve it. Arithmetic deals with statements of numerical fact and direct calculations.

7 + _ = 15 is Arithmetic.


Algebra is the interpretation of numerical relationships.

_ + 9 = _ Is Algebraic.

And no, you're not using 'A+B=C' because that's a representation of numerical relationships. You're not defining a relationship here - you're expressing a numeric truth. It's as straightforward and simple as that. It's precisely because there are no As or Xs that make it Arithmetic because there's no numerical interpretations to be made.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

• IS wins in most if not all stats after quirks.
  
• In many cases IS mech builds that run XLs can deal enough damage to break through a clan CT before a clanner would take out an IS ST after their structure quirks. IS mechs running STD engines become tanking gods if they have the weight for it.
  
• IS weapons tend to weigh more but also be straight up better in many cases: SRMs, LRMs, ballistics barring the gauss. This leads to their missile or ballistic builds being better than clan counterparts at dealing concentrated useful damage.
  
• lasers seemed pretty balanced with higher damage and range at the extra heat and duration costs compared to IS, but then IS got quirks for those that skewed it in their favor while some Clan mechs got quirks that reduce effectiveness.
  
• Clans couldn't even get ERPPCs that dealt their full damage to a single location and instead had it autospread uselessly while still having to deal with full heat penalties.
  
• Clans are left with lasers as their most effective weapon system which still leads to easy to spread damage due to their increased beam durations
  
• Clans have to invest tonnage in TCs to get sad mockeries of the quirks IS mechs get

Clans are still totally OP though, pls nerf those mean clanners and their dreaded Gargoyle base rushes!

I really do feel bad for the clans sometimes, just because they don't die on ST loss doesn't mean IS STs all have to be buffed to be as strong as clan CTs, which on some mechs is almost what we are at. Still someone will argue about how insanely OP the CXL is and that it justifies clans having almost everything nerfed and every form of damage they can do spread.

[mikerso]

DrxAbstract, on 03 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

So... What realistic vs. unrealistic builds are you going to compare next? My vote is for the Awesome with 3 PPCs vs the Warhawk with 6 PPCs... Because apparently someone that tries using a 4 ERLL EBJ isn't 'braindead'.

I'd imagine the Warhawk would lose as well, using as dumb a loadout as the EBJ was.

Reading this thread I would say you might have some valid points, but your arrogant, pinky finger sticking out from your prissy tea cup, attitude makes me not want to listen to you. Don't be a jerk to people.

[El Bandito]

DarthRevis, on 03 January 2016 - 01:43 AM, said:

7 tons and 7 crits


7 tons and 7 crits

for 7.5%.....lolz

On the other hand, just one 1 and 1 slot for 2.25% range, on top of other goodies, such as 22.5% target time boost.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 January 2016 - 03:22 AM.

[Alienized]

DrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

Did you actually have a point or was quoting my words out of context to serve as a launchpad for your misplaced verbal vengeance it?

no need to go salty mate, just pointing something out that was happening.
im not saying IS should have such a range because its wrong in my eyes BUT also there is no need for clans to complain as it happens now. you can still counter the battlemasters very well with all your er large lasers or even gauss/laserdires if you want to.

[Russhuster]

@DrxAbstract

Quote

One that involves some modicum of intelligent consideration,

Indeed, i am with you in that insight, but My fault is to be to optimistic - i still am a clan mech playing fanboy, even though my matches in IS mechs are about 20-50% more sucessful
Have you ever seen PGI coming up with at least one of these qualitys?
To my deep regret, i didnt see such yet, just unconsiderated Nerf-Bashing and Quirk spreading with the big shovel

In that way PGI is using the most destructive way to play its try and most times error with the Playerbase.
annoying a big part of the BT fans, by now these were most forgiving but as it seems it has come to a certain point now and some of the Players are leaving now or changing sides

I doubt anybody would spend a dime for a clan mechpack anymore.
Clan was implementet to early without any thoght of balance, just money grabbing gred, and thats why Clan players feeling ripped off.
The game should have stayed a long time more in the prä-clan timeline rhere the mechpacks PGI sells now would have fitted in marvellously, Marauder, Rifleman, Archer all long known mechs, no need to advance to clan invasion
But now after throwing the Nerfhammer with vigour at all and everything Clan has persistently the damage is done
People losing the fun in playing a Mech that is nerfed on a monthly basis, so they vote with the mouseclick

The EBJ / Hellbringer vs Wubbolt example was chosen to display the big difference in ghostheat and heat capcity in general
where the Wubbolt CAN carry and fire these 5 Large pulsers the Hellbringer CANT ( a side effect was to show that the Bolt was able to load the weapons with extra space left while the Hellbringer had to strip the AR on several parts to ZERO to do so)

Its a lot of slightly´s that come together there,..
Is does the damage in slightly shorter time while having slightly less heat and slightly more maneuverabilty accompanied by Vastly more AR and Structure by quirks and a slightly higher quirklist

That gives the Clan - Robot less time to bring the damage to the Target while the clan - Robot itself has to expose itself longer thats why the Clan - Robot is slightly dead


edit @ Alienized
Yes you can try to play peek a boo with the slowest moving mech with relative low mounted arm weap slots on the field with the IS if you want and if youre stupid enough,.. That whale trying such suicidal actions will be shot like a clay pigeon,.. and thats what the Whale has become

Edited by Russhuster, 03 January 2016 - 03:55 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

How exactly do IS mechs outrange Clans?
No one ever uses IS ER-LLs except, maybe, for sniper Ravens. Those are not a formidable force by any stretch of imagination.

what about a LCT-1V with one ERL-laser.

[The Image]

Khobai, on 02 January 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

Even TC7 doesnt give range advantage back to clans.

TC7 which is the highest you can go is only 7.5% range which is still a long ways off from the 15%-25% that IS mechs get from quirks.

But youre also talking about having to lug something around thats 7 tons and 7 crits too lol

15% allows clans to get advantage back with a TC3, check the math above.

If you're complaining about weight, chalk it up to get 4 tons and 8 free crit slots of CASE, plus your smaller, lighter weapons, AND the fact that the IS 'equivalent' the CC, can't be used by every IS 'mech and doesn't give half the benefits the Clan TC does, PLUS the ability to manipulate your hard points, PLUS the ability of your XL's to survive two torso losses (which by the way is why so many of the Clan Heavy and Assaults move so much more rapidly than IS equivalents), PLUS the fact that Clans get to meet IS on the CW battlefield in equal numbers (barring the minor inconvenience of a tonnage difference), PLUS the fact that Clans have so many viable ECM builds vs. what the IS has, OH, and let's not forget that regardless of all this many of the Clan weapons will STILL do more damage.

Can we chalk this up to a few instances of IS being allowed to exceed one SPECIFIC ability of the Clans, on TWO specific weapons? Seriously the ONLY two weapons this causes the IS to have an advantage on is the ERLL and the ERPPC... That is it.

And since the Clans GENERALLY have lots of speed at their disposal, compared to IS, PLUS, the Clans GENERALLY have larger alphas at loaded, once the Clans close into their range, they have the advantage.

[Mcgral18]

DrPetPyroShark, on 03 January 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

15% allows clans to get advantage back with a TC3, check the math above.

If you're complaining about weight, chalk it up to get 4 tons and 8 free crit slots of CASE, plus your smaller, lighter weapons, AND the fact that the IS 'equivalent' the CC, can't be used by every IS 'mech and doesn't give half the benefits the Clan TC does, PLUS the ability to manipulate your hard points, PLUS the ability of your XL's to survive two torso losses (which by the way is why so many of the Clan Heavy and Assaults move so much more rapidly than IS equivalents), PLUS the fact that Clans get to meet IS on the CW battlefield in equal numbers (barring the minor inconvenience of a tonnage difference), PLUS the fact that Clans have so many viable ECM builds vs. what the IS has, OH, and let's not forget that regardless of all this many of the Clan weapons will STILL do more damage.

Can we chalk this up to a few instances of IS being allowed to exceed one SPECIFIC ability of the Clans, on TWO specific weapons? Seriously the ONLY two weapons this causes the IS to have an advantage on is the ERLL and the ERPPC... That is it.

And since the Clans GENERALLY have lots of speed at their disposal, compared to IS, PLUS, the Clans GENERALLY have larger alphas at loaded, once the Clans close into their range, they have the advantage.

When you're talking about long range, yes, IS has an advantage.

That's what this whole thread is about. Of course it's going to concern long range weapons, and the ERPPC is rubbish, so that leaves the ERLL, which also isn't great unquirked, but 1KM+ of effective range is hard to argue.

[The Image]

DarthRevis, on 03 January 2016 - 01:43 AM, said:

7 tons and 7 crits


7 tons and 7 crits

for 7.5%.....lolz

And 4 tons, and 8 slots worth of free CASE.

4 TONS AND 8 CRITS WORTH OF FREE CASE

Everyone can do large letters and say... "lolz" too...

Edited by DrPetPyroShark, 03 January 2016 - 08:17 AM.

[Aresye]

DrxAbstract, on 03 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

So... What realistic vs. unrealistic builds are you going to compare next? My vote is for the Awesome with 3 PPCs vs the Warhawk with 6 PPCs... Because apparently someone that tries using a 4 ERLL EBJ isn't 'braindead'.

I'd imagine the Warhawk would lose as well, using as dumb a loadout as the EBJ was.

The quad CERLL Hellbringer and Ebon Jaguar are not only used in CW, but they've also seen extensive use within high level competitive play, most often in MRBC where teams have a minimum and maximum number of Clan mechs they must take.

0/10. Try again.

[Mcgral18]

DrPetPyroShark, on 03 January 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

And 4 tons, and 8 slots worth of free CASE.

4 TONS AND 8 CRITS WORTH OF FREE CASE

Everyone can do large letters and say... "lolz" too...

CASE when using Lasers and heatsinks...

How useful.

[RockmachinE]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

How exactly do IS mechs outrange Clans?
No one ever uses IS ER-LLs except, maybe, for sniper Ravens. Those are not a formidable force by any stretch of imagination.

You are wrong, I run 4xERLL on a 80 kph battlemaster and its a beast. GEtting into Tier 2 my average damage dropped from 700-800 to about 300-400, this is the only mech I consistently brake 800 with.

It does 36 dmg up to 900m in the burn time of a ERLL laser. It can shoor several alphas before it overheats and can chain fire virtually indefinitely with very very short pauses between shots, its a beast. Not many weapons can do this.

[The Image]

Mcgral18, on 03 January 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

When you're talking about long range, yes, IS has an advantage.

That's what this whole thread is about. Of course it's going to concern long range weapons, and the ERPPC is rubbish, so that leaves the ERLL, which also isn't great unquirked, but 1KM+ of effective range is hard to argue.

So, according to what you've just posted, now the Clans are down to complaining about ONE specific weapon system, on any 'mech that gets a range quirk above 15%?

Lemme look at the list here:

Lights:
COM-1D - 2E - 40%
LCT-3S - 1E - 25%
LCT-PB - 4E - 20%
PNT-8Z - 3E - 25%
RVN-4X - 2E - 30%
SDR-5V - 2E - 30%
UM-R60L - 4E - 20%

Mediums:
BJ-1 - 4E - 25%
BJ-1DC - 6E - 25%
BJ-3 - 6E - 20%
BJ-A - 3E - 20%
CDA-2A - 6E - 25%
CDA-X5 - 4E - 35%
GRF-1S - 4E - 20%
HBK-GI - 3E - 30%
WVR-6K - 5E - 25%
WVR-7K - 3E - 20%

Heavy:
BL-6-KNT® - 8E - 20%
BL-7-KNT-L - 8E - 20%
QKD-5K - 6E - 20%
QKD-IV4 - 2E - 25%
QKD-4H - 4E - 25%

Assault:
BLR-1S - 4E - 25%

As far as lights and mediums go, it's an impressive list, heavies and assaults... Not so much, and honestly I don't CW enough to know, how common are Black Knights and Quickdraws seen in CW battlefields. Weren't these particular 'mechs considered "DOA"?

I'm honestly ignorant here, so go ahead and 'school' me...

Mcgral18, on 03 January 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

CASE when using Lasers and heatsinks...

How useful.

Certainly seems so on the ballistics and missile vomit builds.

Y'know I'm beginning to get the picture here...

This is a case of the Clans wanting to have their cake AND eat it too...

I'll have to decide how much I want to participate from the point on...

[Mcgral18]

DrPetPyroShark, on 03 January 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

So, according to what you've just posted, now the Clans are down to complaining about ONE specific weapon system, on any 'mech that gets a range quirk above 15%?

I'm honestly ignorant here, so go ahead and 'school' me...

Certainly seems so on the ballistics and missile vomit builds.

Y'know I'm beginning to get the picture here...

This is a case of the Clans wanting to have their cake AND eat it too...

I'll have to decide how much I want to participate from the point on...

Quirks change things. BJs used to be average, now they're godly.
That's the simple truth.


You're refusing to admit the range advantage which is blatantly obvious. It's not Overpowered, but it's a thing.
You can participate or run all you want. There are many Clam whiners, and IS whiners as well. They both want OP robots to smash the competition.
Currently, both factions have God Tier robots, which compete nicely.