180 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

For the record... some people hadn't been paying attention a previous cycle of quirks... and it takes that much time to notice it?

Do people actually play this game?

It is almost guaranteed with every requirkening, there will always be one variant/chassis that gets more buffs that it didn't ever need, and infinitely greater number of terrible variants+chassis that still suck.

Welcome to MWO balance.

[Mawai]

Khobai, on 03 January 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

except people play the same chassis over and over.

IS have superior range in general because IS players mostly play the IS mechs with range bonuses


quirks shouldnt be used to balance weapons. the weapons should be balanced on their own without quirks. they really need to lower the damage and range on clan lasers and then start getting rid of the IS range quirks. balance the weapons at the base level... and then use quirks only for their intended purpose of making similar mechs different.

But the ONLY laser where IS can have a range advantage is the IS-ERLL ... which requires a 10% range quirk to equal the C-ERLL and a 30% range quirk or so to make any sort of significant difference. Any other laser system and the clans have the range advantage. It is ONE weapon on a short list of quirked mechs that have the possibility to give the IS a range advantage IF it is worth fitting the IS-ERLL which is very heat inefficient, takes two slots, and weighs a ton more than the clan version. The IS don't have the slots or weight to fit the heat sinks to balance the heat inefficiency of the IS-ERLL in most builds.

So, even if they have one weapon on a few mechs that can shoot a couple hundred meters farther ... they can't shoot as often. Not only that, the C-ERLL starts off at 11 damage compared to 9 for the IS-ERLL and considering the long range falloff it will still be doing more damage at range than an IS-ERLL for most of the extended range.

[Random Carnage]

Mawai, on 03 January 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

But the ONLY laser where IS can have a range advantage is the IS-ERLL ...

When talking range advantage, one weapon is all that's needed. If you can hit them before they can hit you, job done.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mawai, on 03 January 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

But the ONLY laser where IS can have a range advantage is the IS-ERLL ... which requires a 10% range quirk to equal the C-ERLL and a 30% range quirk or so to make any sort of significant difference. Any other laser system and the clans have the range advantage. It is ONE weapon on a short list of quirked mechs that have the possibility to give the IS a range advantage IF it is worth fitting the IS-ERLL which is very heat inefficient, takes two slots, and weighs a ton more than the clan version. The IS don't have the slots or weight to fit the heat sinks to balance the heat inefficiency of the IS-ERLL in most builds.

So, even if they have one weapon on a few mechs that can shoot a couple hundred meters farther ... they can't shoot as often. Not only that, the C-ERLL starts off at 11 damage compared to 9 for the IS-ERLL and considering the long range falloff it will still be doing more damage at range than an IS-ERLL for most of the extended range.

Time for some buzzwords:

Laser Duration. Ghost heat. Quirks. 50% more heat. More Quirks. Lack of Weapon Diversity.


Simply put, there is more than just the range in favor of the IS mechs and they come into play in every fight.

[DrxAbstract]

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

No, those builds were used long before the current quirk pass.

They were used in competitive play, because organized combat with bigger mechs is generally not a blind rush to the center of the map, and because firing lines are effective when done properly.

Again, that's beside the point. My point was it's not an overly efficient design and just because it's used doesn't discount this.

The Quickdraw being compared to an EBJ/HBR as an example of how IS laser snipers are now 'too powerful' is lacking in many regards, such as the EBJ/HBR having better dissipation and staying power, allowing them function for nearly twice the time a QKD can (Fairly important for maintaining suppression and knocking down advancing units) while possessing the ability to deal more actual damage in an alpha if the pilot wishes. It also ignores the fact an EBJ/HBR can drop as little as 1(Preferably 2) ERLL from their 'Quad Build' and throw in a Gauss to increase their immediate damage delivery potential while still having a larger total damage potential - Or outright drop the ERLLs for 2 ER PPCs+Gauss to vastly reduce face time at the expense of having reduced staying power. A QKD cant do this because it cant mount ballistics and 3 ER PPCs runs prohibitively hot; It could drop to 3 ERLL but that's a change with questionable pros/cons (Bigger engine, 1 more HS, 1 more JJ).

[Hit the Deck]

DrxAbstract, on 04 January 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

...It also ignores the fact an EBJ/HBR can drop as little as 1(Preferably 2) ERLL from their 'Quad Build' and throw in a Gauss to increase their immediate damage delivery potential while still having a larger total damage potential - Or outright drop the ERLLs for 2 ER PPCs+Gauss to vastly reduce face time at the expense of having reduced staying power....

That would be missing the point especially the latter....

[DrxAbstract]

Hit the Deck, on 04 January 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

That would be missing the point especially the latter....

I guess that depends on what your impression of 'the point' is.

[Hit the Deck]

DrxAbstract, on 04 January 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

I guess that depends on what your impression of 'the point' is.

Just simply out ranging your opponent reliably, at least mine in this thread.

[Khobai]

Quote

But the ONLY laser where IS can have a range advantage is the IS-ERLL ... which requires a 10% range quirk to equal the C-ERLL and a 30% range quirk or so to make any sort of significant difference. Any other laser system and the clans have the range advantage

Clans are SUPPOSED to have the range advantage. Not IS.

Clan lasers should do slightly more damage and slightly more range but have more heat and longer beam durations and longer cooldowns.


Again this is how the ISML and CERML might look if they were evenly balanced:

ISML = 5 damage for 4 heat @ 270m range with 1.0 beam duration and 3.0 cooldown
CERML = 6 damage for 5 heat @ 360m range with 1.25 beam duration and 3.25 cooldown


Instead the CERML has ridiculous damage and range, same cooldown as a ISML, and its almost as good as an ISLL and outright superior to an ISML. So IS needs superquirks in order for their lasers to compete.

Like I said before, the weapons need to be rebalanced so theyre roughly equal without quirks. Quirks should not be used for weapon balance at all.

Quote

Not only that, the C-ERLL starts off at 11 damage compared to 9 for the IS-ERLL

Except the CERLL was nerfed into uselessness months ago. Nobody in their right mind uses CERLL because the beam duration is so excessively long. The CLPL and CERML are the main energy weapons used by clan mechs.

ISERLL needs to be compared to the CLPL because no one uses the CERLL.

Edited by Khobai, 04 January 2016 - 01:00 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 04 January 2016 - 12:51 AM, said:

Clans are SUPPOSED to have the range advantage. Not IS.

Clan lasers should do slightly more damage and slightly more range but have more heat and longer beam durations and longer cooldowns.


Again this is how the ISML and CERML might look if they were evenly balanced:

ISML = 5 damage for 4 heat @ 270m range with 1.0 beam duration and 3.0 cooldown
CERML = 6 damage for 5 heat @ 360m range with 1.25 beam duration and 3.25 cooldown


Instead the CERML has ridiculous damage and range, same cooldown as a ISML, and its almost as good as an ISLL and outright superior to an ISML. So IS needs superquirks in order for their lasers to compete.

Like I said before, the weapons need to be rebalanced so theyre roughly equal without quirks. Quirks should not be used for weapon balance at all.

I actually like that IS ML's fire at .90 duration. Given the unreliability of damage registration, laser duration is more or less a direct nerf to those weapons' respective damage proportional to the speed of your target's movements, making anything at or above 1.0 function at reduced effectiveness. Just imagine how much better Clan lasers would be would be if all their damage were actually applied .

It's not too late to implement Mech 2 lasers!

Quote

Except the CERLL was nerfed into uselessness months ago. Nobody in their right mind uses CERLL because the beam duration is so excessively long. The CLPL and CERML are the main energy weapons used by clan mechs.

ISERLL needs to be compared to the CLPL because no one uses the CERLL.

I've been told it's used heavily in 'upper level' comp play...

[VinJade]

Not sure the hate for the Clan Extend Range Large Laser, I use it as a backup when my LRMs run dry(and getting better with the weapon as well).

[Sjorpha]

It's a bit simplistic to say "IS has a range advantage" just because it currently has the best extreme range snipers.

Once you get into midrange (4-600m) the laser range advantage shifts back to clan laser vomit because they will then outrange the IS midrange lasers and outdamage the IS snipers.

Then in short range the IS pulse/laser boats gain the upper hand again, but for IS it's a much sharper tradeoff to choose between a deck of extreme range snipers and a deck of short range mechs.

It's often glossed over that several clan mechs make really strong short range brawlers, like the timber wolf SRM + SPL builds for example, I'd say the short range bracket is currently well balanced when both sides build specifiacally for short range. There seems to be some kind of obsession with midrange poking amongst clan players, but if you choose to go the midrange route with your clan mechs you cant expect to be strong in short or long range.

I personally don't see how the fact that IS has a slight advantage at extreme ranges is some kind of problem, why can't the IS rule the extreme range while clans rule the midrange. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[VinJade]

as a clanner I cannot believe you said it was alright.
the IS tech is still playing catch up by this time and their tech isn't better than Clan tech. if anything their ranges should match if they are trying to make it 'fair' instead of the creators showing more love for the IS side with all the positive quirks they get for each of their mechs.

remember the outrage over the heavily penalized quirks the Timber Wolf suffered?
and I don't even use a Timber Wolf and I can feel their pain.

[DrxAbstract]

Sjorpha, on 04 January 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

It's a bit simplistic to say "IS has a range advantage" just because it currently has the best extreme range snipers.

Once you get into midrange (4-600m) the laser range advantage shifts back to clan laser vomit because they will then outrange the IS midrange lasers and outdamage the IS snipers.

Then in short range the IS pulse/laser boats gain the upper hand again, but for IS it's a much sharper tradeoff to choose between a deck of extreme range snipers and a deck of short range mechs.

It's often glossed over that several clan mechs make really strong short range brawlers, like the timber wolf SRM + SPL builds for example, I'd say the short range bracket is currently well balanced when both sides build specifiacally for short range. There seems to be some kind of obsession with midrange poking amongst clan players, but if you choose to go the midrange route with your clan mechs you cant expect to be strong in short or long range.

I personally don't see how the fact that IS has a slight advantage at extreme ranges is some kind of problem, why can't the IS rule the extreme range while clans rule the midrange. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Because Clans MUST be superior in EVERY way!!! Otherwise it's not following LORE!

[VinJade]

Oh doc how you don't get it.

Lore is the reason behind it that is true, and Clanners earned it by not blasting themselves back into the stone age. but since this isn't battletech as you like to boast and or make fun of us that happen to like history but there is no way mw:o could ever have anything to do with lore which makes this game nothing more than a generic shoot em up robot game, which is still fun so don't get me wrong.

I just remember that MW:O has nothing to do with battletech which makes it easy to accept most things.
but then there are those who don't care about lore because they are just PC fans and most likely never picked up a book or maybe a Trio in their life so its easy for them to dismiss everything when it comes to lore.

[Widowmaker1981]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

How exactly do IS mechs outrange Clans?
No one ever uses IS ER-LLs except, maybe, for sniper Ravens. Those are not a formidable force by any stretch of imagination.

erm

No one uses C-ERLLs, at all, because they suck so badly (1.5s burn time)

People DO use IS-ERLLs on mechs with decent duration quirks, one of the Quickdraws has 25% range and 20% duration, giving it 911m ERLLs with a 1 second flat duration.. Why would people not use those?

CW obviously, if you mean PUG games then no, people dont use big laser weapons unless they are called Pulse, on either side, because you don't really need more than 500m range in pub queue games.

[The Image]

Khobai, on 04 January 2016 - 12:51 AM, said:

Clans are SUPPOSED to have the range advantage. Not IS.

I totally grant that, if you use lore as the sacrosanct unbreakable laws of MWO.

HOWEVER, the IS was supposed to enjoy a 'numbers' advantage. HORDS of lower tech 'mechs being able to overwhelm the Clan technological superiority.

UNFORTUNATELY, as has been stated ad nausea, PGI says "...programming is hard <whimper, lip quiver>..." and we have 12v12 in CW.

NOW, if CW supported 12v10, or 12v8 (whatever would make sense if we could de-quirk IS, and reset all Clan tech to it's original Lore based OP state), we could have it as you say.

DrxAbstract, on 04 January 2016 - 06:24 AM, said:

Because Clans MUST be superior in EVERY way!!! Otherwise it's not following LORE!

Refer to my prior reply about why the sanctity of Lore can't be maintained...

Widowmaker1981, on 04 January 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

erm

No one uses C-ERLLs, at all, because they suck so badly (1.5s burn time)

Then I sure as heck wish you Clanner jerks would stop shooting me with them...

[Khobai]

Quote

Then I sure as heck wish you Clanner jerks would stop shooting me with them...

no one is shooting you with them except maybe bad clan players in bad mechs like shadowcats that have er large laser quirks.

[Almond Brown]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

How exactly do IS mechs outrange Clans?
No one ever uses IS ER-LLs except, maybe, for sniper Ravens. Those are not a formidable force by any stretch of imagination.

Well, given that only 3 IS Mechs have been left with erLL specific quirks, quite a few IS Mechs have some level of Energy based Quirks on-board, with lots having the trifecta (x3). With the erLL and LL having a mere 1 point of Heat variation, the erLL does offer a superior Optimal range (675 vs 450) when buffed with both quirks and modules.

[Gas Guzzler]

Did you guys know that if you stand on the hills near the gates in Boreal, you can trade with c LPLs within your optimal range? It kind of takes away the range advantage when you just get closer using the hills and uneven terrain as cover. Of course, your whole team has to be on board. It comes back to the whole teamwork thing. I see those 911m ER LLs being very strong on boreal in a premade against disorganized teams, because they just run all over the place out in the open. I have also seen it be utterly useless against teams that either hide in the buildings near omega forcing us to close, or closing the distance and taking cover behind that one hill in between the gates.

So yes, some quirked IS mechs have ER LLs that out range Clan mechs, that is irrefutable. But if you consider that those mechs will be at a significant disadvantage once the fight gets a little closer at 500m ish, then you realize that there is a way around it. It just requires some level of teamwork. As does taking advantage of that extreme range capability.