180 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Monkey Lover, on 02 January 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

Clans alpha larger,have 2 slot dhs ,are faster ,do more dps on most weapons and use a clan XL.

Ya starting to sound balanced to me.

All that is meaningless when you consider that Clan 'mechs require twice the exposure time to deliver that damage. IS 'mechs can poke faster, fire faster and take more damage on top of all that.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 04 January 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

All that is meaningless when you consider that Clan 'mechs require twice the exposure time to deliver that damage. IS 'mechs can poke faster, fire faster and take more damage on top of all that.

In most cases this is an exaggeration. Talking 0.9 seconds vs 1.15 typically, which is a quarter of a second, not double duration. There is always a trade off. Engaging at longer range lowers your risk, that is a fact.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 January 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[The Image]

Khobai, on 04 January 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

no one is shooting you with them except maybe bad clan players in bad mechs

Now that's just opinion...

If they were so bad, why are there so many of them out on the playing field?

[Felicitatem Parco]

DjPush, on 02 January 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

IS mechs now out range clan mechs.

Clan SL, SPL, ML, MPL, and LPLs all outrange IS equvalents, even after quirks. Clan Gauss is smaller and weighs less. Clan LRMs are smaller and weigh half as much as IS LRMs. Allnclan UACs outrange IS equivalents.

The range game is only "dominated" by the IS in terms of a few select Mechs with laser range boosts. And they can be Gaussed at their Lasers ranges.

[The Image]

Prosperity Park, on 04 January 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

Clan SL, SPL, ML, MPL, and LPLs all outrange IS equvalents, even after quirks. Clan Gauss is smaller and weighs less. Clan LRMs are smaller and weigh half as much as IS LRMs. Allnclan UACs outrange IS equivalents.

The range game is only "dominated" by the IS in terms of a few select Mechs with laser range boosts. And they can be Gaussed at their Lasers ranges.

Prepares for the voice of reason to be shouted down in, 3...

2...

1...

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 January 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

In most cases this is an exaggeration. Talking 0.9 seconds vs 1.15 typically, which is a quarter of a second, not double duration. There is always a trade off. Engaging at longer range lowers your risk, that is a fact.

You're forgetting the large and medium pulse lasers. They fire super fast. Maximum wub.

[The Image]

Mister Blastman, on 04 January 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

You're forgetting the large and medium pulse lasers. They fire super fast. Maximum wub.

And are significantly out ranged by Clan equivalents, not to mention, Clans are lighter and smaller...

Edited by DrPetPyroShark, 04 January 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

DrPetPyroShark, on 04 January 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

And are significantly out ranged by Clan equivalents, not to mention, Clans are lighter and smaller...

. ... And more damaging.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 04 January 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

You're forgetting the large and medium pulse lasers. They fire super fast. Maximum wub.

Indeed, but it sure sucks to have to close to MPL optimum range (even quirked range). Its a trade off, and if you want to compare wub to wub, for MPLs its 0.6 to 0.85, and 0.67 to 1.12. So for the LPL you get close to the double duration, but you also have a very large range disparity and damage and weight advantage. Even heavily quirked LPLs don't reach 500 m in range after range module, vs the 660 of the LPL (674 with TC1). Like I said, its a tradeoff. Don't get me wrong, the IS LPL is a phenomenal weapon, but so is the cLPL, just in a different way.

[Mister Blastman]

DrPetPyroShark, on 04 January 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

And are significantly out ranged by Clan equivalents, not to mention, Clans are lighter and smaller...

Not really an issue in the PUG queue. Most maps provide enough cover to close to striking range.

Gas Guzzler, on 04 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

Indeed, but it sure sucks to have to close to MPL optimum range (even quirked range). Its a trade off, and if you want to compare wub to wub, for MPLs its 0.6 to 0.85, and 0.67 to 1.12. So for the LPL you get close to the double duration, but you also have a very large range disparity and damage and weight advantage. Even heavily quirked LPLs don't reach 500 m in range after range module, vs the 660 of the LPL (674 with TC1). Like I said, its a tradeoff. Don't get me wrong, the IS LPL is a phenomenal weapon, but so is the cLPL, just in a different way.

The MPL range isn't that bad if you stack them with LPLs. The whole issue is the IS 'mech needs less time to fire and has more damage soaking ability.

It is backwards. If you need less time to fire and less exposure, you should have weaker armor and structure beyond just the XL disadvantage.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 04 January 2016 - 09:40 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The range game is only "dominated" by the IS in terms of a few select Mechs with laser range boosts. And they can be Gaussed at their Lasers ranges.

Except those select few IS mechs are the ones everyone uses.

Quote

The MPL range isn't that bad if you stack them with LPLs. The whole issue is the IS 'mech needs less time to fire and has more damage soaking ability.

It is backwards. If you need less time to fire and less exposure, you should have weaker armor and structure beyond just the XL disadvantage.

They shouldve just made ISXL and CXL both survive side torso destructions. And then made IS STD give a CT structure buff.

The whole point of the IS structure buffs afterall was to help those mechs run XL engines... so its flawed circular logic as to why PGI didnt just make CXL and ISXL both able to survive ST destruction; thus allowing IS to freely use XL engines while eliminating the need to give IS mechs absurd structure buffs.

Again PGI not thinking things through logically...

"instead of addressing the specific reason why ISXL engines arnt used, lets bandaid IS mechs by giving them massive structure buffs, and create entirely new balance problems, just so they can use XL engines more easily" -Paul

Edited by Khobai, 04 January 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 04 January 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

The MPL range isn't that bad if you stack them with LPLs. The whole issue is the IS 'mech needs less time to fire and has more damage soaking ability.

It is backwards. If you need less time to fire and less exposure, you should have weaker armor and structure beyond just the XL disadvantage.

I don't know if that is really true. I understand the logic of what you are saying, but I am not sure if that is how it ends up playing out. NS was on the IS side for a while and then switched to Clans, and I gotta say, I did not notice a difference in difficulty, just that average damage on my team is typically higher due to IS mechs having the structure quirks. If there was truly such a balance issue as you say, I feel like it would be noticeable, but it just isn't.

[The Image]

Mister Blastman, on 04 January 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Not really an issue in the PUG queue. Most maps provide enough cover to close to striking range.

And once in striking range, the Clan weapon with superior damage has an advantage.

Khobai, on 04 January 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Except those select few IS mechs are the ones everyone uses.

I don't...

<shrug>

[Gas Guzzler]

DrPetPyroShark, on 04 January 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

I don't...

<shrug>

Then why are you even discussing balance? Just drive your crap mechs and have fun if that is all you want out of the game.

[Mister Blastman]

DrPetPyroShark, on 04 January 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

And once in striking range, the Clan weapon with superior damage has an advantage.

Once the IS 'mech is in range it can fire faster, poke faster and spread damage better not to mention handle heat better due to more heat efficient weapons with shorter burn times and better autocannons which lets them focus that damage on a single component better.

Let's not drag this argument out.

Unless the Clan 'mechs can play the range game and keep the IS 'mechs at range, the IS has the advantage.

[CDLord HHGD]

Quote

When did that happen?

When PGI threw the TT book out the window. Granted this is a FPS game, but there are things in the original rulebook that are if not totally relevant then at least a good starting point.

[Ultimax]

Mister Blastman, on 04 January 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Not really an issue in the PUG queue. Most maps provide enough cover to close to striking range.



The MPL range isn't that bad if you stack them with LPLs. The whole issue is the IS 'mech needs less time to fire and has more damage soaking ability.

It is backwards. If you need less time to fire and less exposure, you should have weaker armor and structure beyond just the XL disadvantage.

If closing is no issue and range isn't a problem then why aren't you using CMPLs?

They are a half way point between IS MPL & IS LPL.

6 of them do more damage than 4x IS LPLs and weigh SIXTEEN less tons.


0.85s is sufficiently short burn for fast mechs with Clan XL.

370m range is better than any IS Mech can do with IS MPLs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 January 2016 - 10:28 AM.

[Chrome Magnus]

yes, certain IS mechs have comparable or slightly better range but not most. My fav part is how fellow clambers used to say that their big range advantage didn't mean squat unless you were being stupid. Funny how they now cry out "OP OP!"

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

If closing is no issue and range isn't a problem then why aren't you using CMPLs?

They are a half way point between IS MPL & IS LPL.

6 of them do more damage than 4x IS LPLs and weigh SIXTEEN less tons.


0.85s is sufficiently short burn for fast mechs with Clan XL.

370m range is better than any IS Mech can do with IS MPLs.

Because closing is an issue and puts your mech at greater risk of flanking maneuvers and getting surrounded to the point where you can't disengage from battle

[Sandpit]

DjPush, on 02 January 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

IS mechs now out range clan mechs.

Alienized, on 02 January 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

no one has to fight at 900m range. you can use so much to avoid it that it hurts to see people crying for max range problems with all your 4 er large laser hellbringers that been out everywhere.

overall, laservomit has gone out of hand with this change for 3 large lasers ghost heat trigger.
it should count for more than 2 large laser/large pulse laser on clan and IS side and more than 4 on med/med pulses.
smalls at more than 6.

so just curious, you think a weapon that does less damage, has less range, and produces more heat should be restricted the same as an AC10?