180 replies to this topic

[Bushmaster0]

Bullseye69, on 02 January 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

To be effective with the er large laser you have to hold the beam steady and that not tht easy when your getting hit with gauss rifles and the range boost is not on all mechs so to me it balances out a bit. You still have lighter weapons, 2 slot xl , 2 slot d heat sinks, and mostly longer range weapons across all clan mechs since the range boost thing is not on all inner sphere mechs. To me be able to at least repley to a clan mech firing at me and make him at least consider the fact that i can damage him right back seems fair to me. Beside the clans are seeming to counter it with different weapon system and tatics and that what is need not just set inside you base and snipe which is how it been for months now, now both sides have to work for it. The only reason clans are pushing the inner sphere around is some units jumped from clan side to IS and they will jump back once the event end and a new one takes place.

that doesn't apply to clan lasers with their longer burn times?

[Ultimax]

The reason we have this situation is because there are players here who can't handle seeing one big number of a quirk and because there are other players here who don't like weapon specific quirks.


OMG OMG!!! +50% range to Medium Pulse Lasers? HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR


So what happened was PGI split the difference, and just gave oodles of generic quirks that were about half as strong as the previous Generic+Specific combined.


What that did was grant these generic +15% to +25% bonuses that aren't too big in and of themselves and are basically necessary to actually use less optimal ranged lasers to compete vs. clan tech (MLAS vs. CERMLAS, IS LPL vs. CMPL, LLAS vs. CLPL).

The problem is then you can take that generic 25% and apply it to anything (ER LLAS) - which then gives us mechs with 900m+ ranges.


This is another case of a headless playerbase not being able to estimate consequences.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 January 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[The Image]

Mcgral18, on 03 January 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Quirks change things. BJs used to be average, now they're godly.
That's the simple truth.


You're refusing to admit the range advantage which is blatantly obvious. It's not Overpowered, but it's a thing.
You can participate or run all you want. There are many Clam whiners, and IS whiners as well. They both want OP robots to smash the competition.
Currently, both factions have God Tier robots, which compete nicely.

Range is a thing yes, BUT, it's not the only dang thing. I notice that when one side starts quoting ALL the quirks one particular build gets, they leave off ALL the particular quirks their opposite example has available to it.

<sigh>

Full disclosure, a lot of Clan 'mechs get mobility and structure bonuses too. It's just based on what Omni pods you've loaded up, when you've manipulated your hard points during your build.

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

The reason we have this situation is because there are players here who can't handle seeing one big number of a quirk and because there are other players here who don't like weapon specific quirks.


OMG OMG!!! +50% range to Medium Pulse Lasers? HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR


So what happened was PGI split the difference, and just gave oodles of generic quirks that were about half as strong as the previous Generic+Specific combined.


What that did was grant these generic +15% to +25% bonuses that aren't too big in and of themselves and are basically necessary to actually use less optimal ranged lasers to compete vs. clan tech (MLAS vs. CERMLAS, IS LPL vs. CMPL, LLAS vs. CLPL).

The problem is then you can take that generic 25% and apply it to anything (ER LLAS) - which then gives us mechs with 900m+ ranges.


This is another case of a headless playerbase not being able to estimate consequences.

Also, let's remember that "weapon specific" quirks have mostly been done away with, with this last quirk pass.

In my list of 'mechs with energy range quirks, the ONLY 'mech that had a weapon specific quirk was the STK-4N, it has 10% energy range, PLUS a 5% Large Laser quirk (unless I missed some, which I won't discount, beer and research tend not to mix well, if I missed any IS builds with specific energy weapon quirks, please let me know, I'll fix my list).

[DrxAbstract]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 January 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

The quad CERLL Hellbringer and Ebon Jaguar are not only used in CW, but they've also seen extensive use within high level competitive play, most often in MRBC where teams have a minimum and maximum number of Clan mechs they must take.

0/10. Try again.

I didn't say they weren't used. I said they're unrealistic and fairly ineffective designs. Just because they get used in 'high level comp' play doesn't prove otherwise - It only proves people are willing to use those designs to combat the perceived advantage in laser sniping range the IS has.

[Ultimax]

DrxAbstract, on 03 January 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

I didn't say they weren't used. I said they're unrealistic and fairly ineffective designs. Just because they get used in 'high level comp' play doesn't prove otherwise - It only proves people are willing to use those designs to combat the perceived advantage in laser sniping range the IS has.

No, those builds were used long before the current quirk pass.

They were used in competitive play, because organized combat with bigger mechs is generally not a blind rush to the center of the map, and because firing lines are effective when done properly.

[Khobai]

Quote

The reason we have this situation is because there are players here who can't handle seeing one big number of a quirk and because there are other players here who don't like weapon specific quirks.

players originally asked for quirks ONLY to differentiate mechs.

whoever at PGI started using quirks for weapon balance is at fault... thats NEVER what quirks were meant to be used for.

[Aresye]

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

What that did was grant these generic +15% to +25% bonuses that aren't too big in and of themselves and are basically necessary to actually use less optimal ranged lasers to compete vs. clan tech (MLAS vs. CERMLAS, IS LPL vs. CMPL, LLAS vs. CLPL).

And Clan tech has things like higher heat and longer burn times to offset their range and/or damage advantages.

It rather defeats the entire purpose of balance when quirks allow IS weapons (on certain mechs) to be relatively even with Clan weapons, but with none of the disadvantages, such as the QKD-5K ERLL build I discussed earlier that shoots farther than the CERLL, does more damage per every 0.1s the beam is held on target, and has a less strict ghost heat penalty PLUS energy heat gen quirks to offset the higher tonnage and crit slots of the IS ERLL and IS DHS.

[Mawai]

DjPush, on 02 January 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

IS mechs now out range clan mechs.

LOL. Can you cite some examples?

IS-LL ... 450m ... max 900m
IS-ERLL ... 675m ... max 1350
C-ERLL ... 740m ... max 1480

IS-LPL ... 365m ... max 730m
C-LPL ... 600m ... max 1200m

IS-ML ... 270m ... max 540
C-ERML ... 405m ...max 688m

IS-MPL ... 220m ... max 440m
C-MPL ... 330m ... max 561m

So ... IS lasers do NOT outrange clans without quirks.

So what about quirks?

To get an IS-ERLL optimal range that is equal to the C-ERLL you need a 10% range quirk.
To get an IS-LL optimal range that is equal to the C-ERLL you need a 65% range quirk.
To get an IS-LPL optimal range that is equal to the C-LPL you need a 65% range quirk.
To get an IS-ML optimal range that is equal to the C-ERLL you need a 50% range quirk.
To get an IS-MPL optimal range that is equal to the C-MPL you need a 50% range quirk.

So what mechs have this?

Do ANY IS mechs have a 65% energy+laser range quirk? NO.
Do ANY IS mechs have a 50% energy+laser range quirk? YES. ONLY the LCT-1m has a 50% range quirk ... but if you are basing the entire thread on a locust someone has a bridge they can sell you.

Are there IS mechs with at least a 10% range quirk? YES. There are quite a few. These mechs will not equal the C-ERML range or any other clan laser but if using the IS-ERLL might be able to equal or exceed the range of the C-ERLL. On the other hand, the IS-ERLL is less DPS and less DPS/ton than the C-ERLL, requires 2 slots, weights 1 ton more and does 9 damage for 8 heat compared to 11 damage for 10 heat for the C-ERLL.

The point is that for most weapons, in most typical loadouts on almost every mech (including the STK-4N ... which only has a 15% large laser (not ER) range quirk) the IS still does not out-range the clans. So .. I don't know where this misinformation and misunderstanding is coming from ... ignorance? ... stupidity? ... desire to start a troll thread?

I am all in favor of balance discussions but please start off by giving a clue that you have any idea what you are talking about.

[Ultimax]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 January 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

And Clan tech has things like higher heat and longer burn times to offset their range and/or damage advantages.

It rather defeats the entire purpose of balance when quirks allow IS weapons (on certain mechs) to be relatively even with Clan weapons, but with none of the disadvantages, such as the QKD-5K ERLL build I discussed earlier that shoots farther than the CERLL, does more damage per every 0.1s the beam is held on target, and has a less strict ghost heat penalty PLUS energy heat gen quirks to offset the higher tonnage and crit slots of the IS ERLL and IS DHS.

That's not entirely true though, its only true for very specific cases and even then there is usually some other factor like IS XL vs. Clan XL.

Longer burn times yes, but the "higher heat" in most cases outside of maybe the strongest quirks in the game is consistently a misnomer.


There is usually some factor of: heat, range, damage, burn, tonnage and ability to mass-slot DHS that goes ignored in these conversations. (usually damage per ton and crit slots gets ignored because they aren't easily compared).



The QKD certainly has a great package of quirks.

It's still using 20 tons of lasers ((4x ER LLAS = 36) to only do 3 more damage per alpha than 12 tons of lasers (3x CERLLAS = 33).



4x ER LLAS w/ Ghost heat = 41.60 heat -10% (QKD-5k) = 37.44 heat
3x CERLLAS w/ Ghost heat = 37.20 heat

The QKD would likely have 18 or 19 heatsinks (300XL build fits 18)


So
36 damage alpha
37.44 heat (including quirks)
Heat Cap = 74.40
Dissipation = 3.59 heat/s
877m range (20% quirk + T5 Module)

Let's put it against the HBR


With 3x CERLLAS you can fit 24 DHS, ECM and a MK 1 TC
33 damage alpha
37.20 heat
Heat Cap = 78.48
Dissipation = 4.71 heat/s
830m range (T5 mod and MK 1 TC)


There are other factors. The HBR brings ECM, the QKD has JJs.

The QKD will have higher DPS through quirks, will do more focused damage from reduced burn time (quirks & natively shorter beam time) but on the other hand actually runs hotter even with quirks due to (slightly) smaller heat cap and lower dissipation.

Then the QKD also has IS XL vs. Clan XL for the HBR.


These two builds aren't equal, but they are IMO asymmetrically balanced vs. one another with pros and cons for each.





Now if you want to run 4x CERLLAS and do 44 point alphas over the 36 point alpha of the QKD*, you are dropping a lot of efficiency for a larger alpha, so yes its going to run hotter but you are also doing more damage.


Which is, almost always, the trade off.


*The QKD would need to run 5x ER LLAS to do 45 damage vs the 44 for the 4x CERLLAS - suffering much higher ghost heat and losing too many DHS in the process.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 January 2016 - 12:03 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah and there is no cover to be found from mechs 1000 m away right? Clan Mechs are required to trade using their shorter range weapons despite losing trades every single time, as it is said nowhere ever.

[MauttyKoray]

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

From someone else's post in another thread:

Clan lasers mostly have longer burn times too. Just saying. :\ Its not as simple as solely comparing one mechanic. Each sides wins in one aspect or another, but the weapon as a whole are still slightly different. Range, Heat, Cooldown, Burn Time, Damage, etc. None of those can be balanced separately or you'll just end up with either generic clone weapons of one another or one of the two will be inferior to the other.

I think a lot of the issue in the fact that we can SHOOT OVER 1000M. LRMs were supposed to be the farthest reaching weapon in the game, but now we have post-1000M energy and ballistics that make fights really insane and people sniping with 3ERLLs out at like 1300M.

IMO we need to refocus this issue on the Maximum Ranges of weapons, and reign them in significantly. Reduce them to things like 20% of the current Effective Range or something (change depending on weapon I guess?), go through and change each weapon.

Lets say
SLs-80% while the ERs get like 50%
MLs 60% while the ERs get 25%
LLs at 30% with the ERs netting a 10%

SL - 135 / 243 (3 dmg, 2 heat, 2.25 CD, 0.75 duration, 3 TCT, 1 DPS)
CERSL - 200 / 300 (5 dmg, 3 heat, 2.25 CD, 1.00 duration, 3.25 TCT, 1.53 DPS)

^- Thats an issue imo, massive DPS difference. Possibly reduce by 1 DMG? Brings the DPS down to 1.23 while the remaining weapon is untouched. Balancing the IS ERSL, I'd say 4 dmg, 4 heat, 2.25 CS, 0.9 duration = 3.15 TCT and 1.26 DPS. This would give the ERSL a slightly better DPS at a heat cost (remember clans were supposed to be superior in heat... lets give it some flavor).

ML - 270 / 432 (5 dmg, 4 heat, 3 CD, 0.9 duration, 3.9 TCT, 1.28 DPS)
CERML - 405 / 506 (7 dmg, 6 heat, 3 CD, 1.15 duration, 4.15 TCT, 1.68 DPS)

^- again, clans are only ER, IS will also get ER, assumption is they will be similar to CER, possibly with slightly less duration, and 1 point less damage, and slightly less range (maybe 50m?). Problem is making both ML and ERML viable once it happens. Suggested, 6 dmg, 5 heat, 3 CD, 1 duration for = 4 TCT with a 1.5 DPS. Bring the range up to be a bit more competitive and the slightly lower DPS will be made up for by the lower burn time. I honestly wanted to suggest 6 heat for the ISERML, but I feel like that would cause I riot without a tweak to something else... maybe 6 heat, but then keep 0.9 duration for 1.53 dps? Or 7 dmg 7 heat but then 1.10 duration for 1.7 DPS? <--That doesn't sound bad...heat penalty and lower range would give it a nice balance for a higher damage burst over the same duration. Unique but neither overpowering the other at all situations?

LL - 450 / 562 (9 dmg, 7 heat, 3.25 CD, 1 duration, 4.25 TCT, 2.12 DPS)
ERLL - 675 / 742 (9 dmg, 8 heat, 3.25 CD, 1.25 duration, 4.5 TCT, 2 DPS)
CERLL - 740 / 814 (11 dmg, 10 heat, 3.25 CD, 1.50 duration, 4.75 TCT, 2.31 DPS.

^- I actually see no issue with the LL series personally, OTHER THAN, the ridiculous range they've had for so long. I'm sorry but I like this A LOT MORE, a max of 814m on a LL without modules/quirks/etc? YES PLEASE. The CERLL has a noticeably higher DPS and slightly more raw damage, but that's spread over an extra .25 seconds and an extra 2 heat generated in total. Plus the reduction to a mere 100m or less in difference between the C and IS ERs feel like a much better place for them to sit by far.

These are weird... CSPL is +80%, CMPL is +70%, and CLPL is +100??? W...T...F... these are all sort of nope. Another split modification incoming!

SPLs-100% while the Cs get like 70%
MPLs 75% while the Cs get 35%
LPLs at 50% with the Cs netting a 15%

SPL - 110 / 220 (4 dmg, 2 heat, 2.25 CD, 0.5 duration, 2.75 TCT, 1.45 DPS)
CSPL - 165 / 280 (6 dmg, 3 heat, 2.25 CD, 0.75 duration, 3.0 TCT, 2 DPS?!)
^Huge DPS difference, recommend either reducing CSPL to 5 dmg for 1.66 DPS (preferred method) or up heat to 4 to compensate mainly for superior DPS and lesser so for range superiority. It can nearly compete with an ISMPL in range and has huge DPS, not okay.

MPL - 220 / 385 (6 dmg, 4 heat, 3 CD, 0.6 duration, 3.6 TCT, 1.66 DPS)
CMPL - 330 / 445 (8 dmg, 6 heat, 3 CD, 0.85 duration, 3.85 TCT, 2.07 DPS) <- WOW
^Again, recommend reducing damage to 7 for a 1.81 DPS at least. 2.07 is massive and we wonder why we have issues with PPFLD laser vomit?

LPL - 365 / 547 (11 dmg, 7 heat, 3.25 CD, 0.67 duration, 3.92 TCT, 2.80 DPS) <-Seriously?
CLPL - 600 / 690 (13 dmg, 10 heat, 3.25 CD, 1.12 duration, 4.36 TCT, 2.98 DPS) <-SERIOUSLY?!
^(I say 540 / 621 is better on CLPL)
^Sorry but no, 600m? Bad, this is really messed up, I know CERLL is far but think of this as a non-ER laser, even the CSPL and CMPL are restricted to a +50% gap, this one is +64%! Its bad, I have to say. I understand more IS tech is beyond this but...WOW. Reduce to 540 which is just below at 48%
^Once again, WTF NEARLY 3 DPS?! Here's my suggestion below:

LPL - 365 / 547 (10 dmg, 7 heat, 3.25 CD, 0.75 duration, 3.92 TCT, 2.50 DPS)
CLPL - 540 / 621 (12 dmg, 10 heat, 3.25 CD, 1.15 duration, 4.36 TCT, 2.72 DPS)
^Makes the LPL a low duration alternative to LL at cost of range with slightly more damage and it at least tones the DPS down, LPL boats are an issue. Still the highest DPS for lasers thought with respectable range for IS.
^CLPL reduced as well, but retains slightly higher DPS over the cost of a much loner duration and massive heat generation.



HOWEVER, quirks will need a major overhaul after this. Missiles don't follow this mechanic so there isn't really an issue there, but ballistics will also need a similar overhaul to pull them in and stop letting them hit at stupidly insane ranges, I understand some are supposed to shoot 'far' but 720/1440 on an AC5 and 540/1080 on an AC10 is silly.

Think of it this way, the clans 'improved' their tech, so think of them producing 'less waste' (smaller extended ranges) and instead having a higher effective range to begin with, maybe doing a little more damage, but improvements will require more heat, longer burn times, etc. In contrast, hastily improved IS tech will have better range, damage, and retain a better burn time, but at the cost of generating more/comparable heat to the Clan's weapons without achieving quite the damage or range. Its all trade off and finding a place for it to sit.

Remember, the clans don't get previous tech weaponry, they're stuck with their ERs and what not. Meanwhile the IS WILL get ER weaponry and more improved versions. What we need to find is that trade off balance to make new stuff interesting while making sure the older weaponry is still a viable choice. Same problem we have with SHS and DHS now, DHS is a direct upgrade leaving SHS to pretty much never be used outside of some lights and other non-heatsink dependent builds that use the extra crits instead. Think of it this way

Edited by MauttyKoray, 03 January 2016 - 02:10 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

Aresye Kerensky, on 02 January 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Believe it or not, but it's been that way for awhile, yet nobody will admit it, despite it being blatantly obvious.

Enjoy getting rekt on Boreal and Hellebore btw.

I read this as, "Boo hoo, clans can't have every advantage with the Meta."

The range advantage varies weapon by weapon, chassis by chassis. Clan still have superior damage and inferior burn. Overall things are relatively even.

What the Clans do not like is when things are relatively even then skill becomes more apparent. Many of the Clan pilots who are crying do so because they have been exposed.

Sorry PGI took your "skill" away.

[Ted Wayz]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 January 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

And Clan tech has things like higher heat and longer burn times to offset their range and/or damage advantages.

It rather defeats the entire purpose of balance when quirks allow IS weapons (on certain mechs) to be relatively even with Clan weapons, but with none of the disadvantages, such as the QKD-5K ERLL build I discussed earlier that shoots farther than the CERLL, does more damage per every 0.1s the beam is held on target, and has a less strict ghost heat penalty PLUS energy heat gen quirks to offset the higher tonnage and crit slots of the IS ERLL and IS DHS.

ZOMG, the Quickdraw is now tier 1! Everyone go out and get one!

Quickdraw is your example, really? Was the Vindicator not available?

Not piling on Aresye, but you have to admit you are stretching here.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 03 January 2016 - 12:32 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ted Wayz, on 03 January 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

ZOMG, the Quickdraw is now tier 1! Everyone go out and get one!

Quickdraw is your example, really? Was the Vindicator not available?

Actually,
http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/
quickdraw finds itself at Tier 1 of long range combat.

Vindi did not get good quirks.

[Aresye]

Mcgral18, on 03 January 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

Actually,
http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/
quickdraw finds itself at Tier 1 of long range combat.

Thank you Mcgral18!

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Ted Wayz, on 03 January 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

I read this as, "Boo hoo, clans can't have every advantage with the Meta."

The range advantage varies weapon by weapon, chassis by chassis. Clan still have superior damage and inferior burn. Overall things are relatively even.

What the Clans do not like is when things are relatively even then skill becomes more apparent. Many of the Clan pilots who are crying do so because they have been exposed.

Sorry PGI took your "skill" away.

Gotta love it when people claim that Clan pilots are mad because things are balanced and they have no skill when many of the arguments are from people who play as both and usually more with IS.

Not to mention McGral already effectively closed the casket on your other arguement in your second post.

[Hit the Deck]

ITT McGral got kudos for pointing to metamechs.com. I guess that's an improvement?

Edited by Hit the Deck, 03 January 2016 - 03:47 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The range advantage varies weapon by weapon, chassis by chassis. Clan still have superior damage and inferior burn. Overall things are relatively even.

except people play the same chassis over and over.

IS have superior range in general because IS players mostly play the IS mechs with range bonuses


quirks shouldnt be used to balance weapons. the weapons should be balanced on their own without quirks. they really need to lower the damage and range on clan lasers and then start getting rid of the IS range quirks. balance the weapons at the base level... and then use quirks only for their intended purpose of making similar mechs different.

Edited by Khobai, 03 January 2016 - 03:56 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Khobai, on 03 January 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

except people play the same chassis over and over.

IS have superior range in general because IS players mostly play the IS mechs with range bonuses

Pretty much, its not that all the mechs are the problem, or even the weapon itself (though it is to some degree).

If one chassis is overquirked, you're going to see that chassis in CW...CONSTANTLY.

[r4plez]

Thats why i abandon this game long ago. PGI ballancing is killing fun from it. First they get a bait by selling Clans, made tham 2 strong, OP even, than they nerfed them into oblivion. Now it is time to sell some IS mech pack - ppl will gladly buy new toys. Than IS nerf will come. Rinse and repeat.

Edited by r4plez, 03 January 2016 - 04:04 PM.