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Increase Potential Armour On Ct


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#1 SOL Ranger

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 06:13 PM

Suggestion to increase potential armour allocation amount on CT for all mechs

I've found that there is rarely a reason to aim at anything but the CT, a few exceptions exist such as the Dragon 1N or the obvious IS XL engine mechs exposing themselves, but in general mechs are so diversely built that nothing much matters but the CT, making combat very simplisticly linear and boring, giving no incentives to aim to cripple mechs rather than just killing them outright.

I've also, as many others have, voiced concerns about the TTK being low in the past, naturally I find that to be an issue to this day as tactics have more or less stagnated and if anything improved in deadliness; But the most glaring issue is the ease at which the CT is peeled off in mere seconds as if effortless, nobody is very worried about getting hurt or losing some limbs etc. because that rarely happens, it is the exception, everyone worries about the CT and everyone aims for the CT.

When you shield from damage nobody really cares about your arms etc., not the shooter, not you, they want to get to the gooey innards, but why is that, you do this even if you didn't have shield arms because the CT is so vulnerable it's pretty much the achilles heel of most mechs, why does the CT have to be so weak.
If you're CT cored then of course you protect the CT, but we do this anyway because the CT is still very weak, wouldn't it be more interesting to have players try to protect all of their other various body parts more to stay intact rather than explode essentially what can be perceived sometimes as out of the blue.


This issue is especially a big problem for LOS sustained damage builds where exposing the CT is a constant requirement and issue, you can't often put out damage without also being fully exposed by the CT, I estimate that is not very reasonable in terms of balance as it punishes already weak weapons and helps to push the weapon preference into builds where this behaviour isn't required.

When using a KGC-000 with UAC5's for instance, you're a walking CT if you want any damage put out, if you assault anything where people wait for you you will drop dead if you're also trying to do damage, not from your arms exploding or legs falling off, but your CT imploding from focus fire, almost every time. You also can't shield yourself because then you won't be doing any damage so you have a choice of one or the other, more notably your actual most reasonable choice is to not equip sustained damage weapons at all to begin with in the mechlab. Whereas high alpha higher cooldown builds will simply fire, you shield and then fire again etc. successfully surviving and spreading out damage.

There is a huge discrepancy in what is required for the use of various weapons and the freedom of how you take damage, sustained damage weapons are in a very bad place in comparison to high alpha weaponry of any kind.


Almost everyone is after the CT as if tunnel vision gripped them, the bigger you are the more CT will be aimed for, but what if it was more equal or even the other way around.
What if to truly optimally kill a mech it would be more viable to strip them of their most dangerous limbs and side torsos, to kill a King Crab you would rather shoot its arms to disarm it, to kill a catapult you'd rather shoot its shoulder boom box junk, also making gaining information of a mech and using it properly more important and to utilise, as to see what is vulnerable and dangerous and go for it rather than blindly the CT.

I think it is very desirable to have clear mechanics in place which make it significantly advantageous to reduce incoming damage from the enemy mechs by intentionally first crippling them rather than going for the CT to kill them outright every time, the CT which should be a very protected part of the mech in my opinion should be THE strongpoint of any mech and more of a last resort aiming point to put it down rather than the universal target focus point.

So this suggestion focuses on all these issues, TTK, more interesting combat aiming regions, gameplay enhancement, and allowing sustained builds more leeway in terms of survival making shielding an option but not the definitive required tactic to survive.

What if the CT could allocate a substantial amount of extra armour.

Suggestion:
  • CT can now hold ~50% additional maximum armour with the compromise and expense of weight.
Results:
  • Players feel compelled to take advantage of the potentially higher CT armour, in general lowering their maximum weapon weight slightly, up to a couple tonnes less for the heaviest of mechs.
  • Makes aiming and taking out mech body parts more interesting as the relative armour difference becomes quite significant when tunneling the CT.
  • CT is still a legitimate focus point but not at all the go to always go for the CT as it is today.
  • TTK is raised both by increased overall defensive means and slightly reduced offensive means, while risky builds still stay risky.
  • Increases the viability of close range brawler builds to force a re-evaluation of previously set in stone combat tactics of hot snipers.
  • Sustained damage builds and mechs become more viable as their vulnerability is spread out rather than their existence based solely on how long their CT stays intact.
I know there are people who want MWO to remain a low TTK shooter, but I'm one of those who likes the idea of big tough robots degrading under fire in combat and finally fall down in pieces when they just can't take anymore, beefing up the CT is the most obvious way to create more interesting gameplay change in my opinion; The maximum alpha warrior online isn't really my cup of tea, I'd much rather see more place for sustained damage builds and in depth combat where arms and legs fly off more often as a result of an important tactic than just by accident.


Potential secondary concerns:
  • IS XL would need to be mechanically retuned, when a ST is taken out it would no longer kill the mech but simply slow it down by 20-33% per ST, however the IS XL could yield a structure penalty by say 50% reduction, and the STD a higher structure amount of say 50% to balance them. But these are secondary concerns and can be solved in many ways.
  • All ammo quantity/t would potentially be required to be increased slightly, 10-20%.
Would you like to have stronger CT's and mix up the game a bit with overall slightly higher TTK and some fun body part stripping aiming tactics?


Thank you.

Disclaimer: This is a concept suggestion, any numbers are placeholders to allow an example solution to be evaluated for its functional properties, it is not meant as a ready to implement solution, but an example to allow discussion about a potential solution in a manner like it.

#2 Tarogato

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 06:19 PM

I was thinking about this the other day. "Gee, I always shoot straight CT on mechs, they only time they take damage anywhere else is because they are torso-twisting and I'm not timing my shots well..."

CT is the obvious target - it's the quickest way to kill every mech in the game. Nobody really bothers with tearing off arms or torsos unless they are new and don't know any better... so why not give all CT's in the game a 30% structure bonus? Every single CT in the game... +30% structure. Bam. Now that it's a bit tougher, there's more value to aiming for the "disarm" instead of the "quick kill."

And if 30% isn't enough, screw it, go 50%.

#3 pbiggz

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 06:21 PM

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to CT buffs, as long as the buffs weren't hamfisted, which tends to be a theme with paul balance.

#4 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 06:23 PM

how about...no?

#5 Brollocks

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 06:57 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 January 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

how about...no?



I like your logical thought out argument against this.





If they can't or won't do anything to curb the massive pinpoint alphas in this game, band aid fixes like the OP are needed IMO. I want to see TTK increase significantly.

#6 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:02 PM

I vote no as well, as I feel it would lower the skill inherent to rolling damage and promote staring. Save for the microdemographic that rolls damage well (who would become even more an outlier population of aces), this would promote bad habits, not increase ttk.

That being said, if CT buffs were universally introduced, I think a fair item to require would be a commensurate increase in ammo per ton, because a blanket buff would also make laser meta even stronger.

Edit: breaking up pin point convergence, reducing FLD etc would do more towards upping TTK without blanket buffs like this that create additional ripples like the ammo issue here.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 02 January 2016 - 07:05 PM.


#7 Alistair Winter

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:04 PM

I would say that potential max armour should be increased on all mechs. In Battletech, different mechs come with different amounts of armour. Some are known to be particularly durable, others have very thin armour indeed. In MWO, basically every mech in the same weight class has the same amount of armour. Everyone is running max armour in the torso, while they may shave off a little here and there on the arms and legs. But the Jagermech is just as sturdy as the Thunderbolt or Catapult, for example. The Rifleman will be just as heavily armoured as the Quickdraw or Dragon.

Structure quirks are a separate issue, of course.

#8 Nightmare1

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:07 PM

Frankly, I think that boosting the max cap for armor points on all components would solve a lot of TTK problems. Players would need to sacrifice ammo, weapons, JJs, or heatsinks in order to pack on the extra armor. This not only adds to BattleMech survivability by increasing your overall armor, but it also indirectly decreases the amount of firepower coming at you from high alphas. Seems like a win-win to me.

Pilots could still run high alphas, of course, but would do so with the knowledge that they would be facing more resilient opponents while their own armor would be light, comparatively speaking. They would truly be glass cannons then.

#9 El Bandito

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:09 PM

No, that will invalidate skill as it will not be worth focusing that section anymore. CT is already the most heavily armored part of the mech anyway. If one cannot protect his CT, then it is his fault.

I personally prefer to reduce TTK by reducing weapon effectiveness. Chiefly by using power draw mechanic, as well as increasing laser beam duration and giving all ACs stream fire.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 January 2016 - 07:11 PM.


#10 Alwrathandabout42ninjas

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:10 PM

I like the idea, but if your changes actually went into place, everyone would shoot legs. That is not what we want, legsweepwarrior online.

#11 nehebkau

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:11 PM

They should have armor pods just like std heat sinks that you can mount to increase the armor in that specific area by 1T.

#12 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:30 PM

View PostMuddy Funster, on 02 January 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:



I like your logical thought out argument against this.





If they can't or won't do anything to curb the massive pinpoint alphas in this game, band aid fixes like the OP are needed IMO. I want to see TTK increase significantly.

It really doesn't need a long drawn out explanation.

TTK is an issue from focus fire. Combat 1v1 is already often a long drawn out affair. Buffing the CT jsut makes it more tedious. Fix the actual problem, don't slap on bandaids that jsut cause MORE problems.

#13 PholkLorr

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:45 PM

No.

TTK is too high. Mechs should die faster. I like my enemy dying in 0.1 to 1 second like they do in COD and CS. And 1 pro player can wipe 5 noobs by himself.

See? TTK is player preference. It's not balance, where there you can get hard, objective data to show one thing is better than another. When it comes to TTK, some people think its too high while others think its too low. What to do?

#14 100 Tonne

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:50 PM

i think increase CT amour buff to some mechs would be good. (my Atlii could certainly use it)

#15 MauttyKoray

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 07:59 PM

View PostSOL Ranger, on 02 January 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

Suggestion to increase potential armour allocation amount on CT for all mechs

I've found that there is rarely a reason to aim at anything but the CT, a few exceptions exist such as the Dragon 1N or the obvious IS XL engine mechs exposing themselves, but in general mechs are so diversely built that nothing much matters but the CT, making combat very simplisticly linear and boring, giving no incentives to aim to cripple mechs rather than just killing them outright.

I've also, as many others have, voiced concerns about the TTK being low in the past, naturally I find that to be an issue to this day as tactics have more or less stagnated and if anything improved in deadliness; But the most glaring issue is the ease at which the CT is peeled off in mere seconds as if effortless, nobody is very worried about getting hurt or losing some limbs etc. because that rarely happens, it is the exception, everyone worries about the CT and everyone aims for the CT.

When you shield from damage nobody really cares about your arms etc., not the shooter, not you, they want to get to the gooey innards, but why is that, you do this even if you didn't have shield arms because the CT is so vulnerable it's pretty much the achilles heel of most mechs, why does the CT have to be so weak.
If you're CT cored then of course you protect the CT, but we do this anyway because the CT is still very weak, wouldn't it be more interesting to have players try to protect all of their other various body parts more to stay intact rather than explode essentially what can be perceived sometimes as out of the blue.


This issue is especially a big problem for LOS sustained damage builds where exposing the CT is a constant requirement and issue, you can't often put out damage without also being fully exposed by the CT, I estimate that is not very reasonable in terms of balance as it punishes already weak weapons and helps to push the weapon preference into builds where this behaviour isn't required.

When using a KGC-000 with UAC5's for instance, you're a walking CT if you want any damage put out, if you assault anything where people wait for you you will drop dead if you're also trying to do damage, not from your arms exploding or legs falling off, but your CT imploding from focus fire, almost every time. You also can't shield yourself because then you won't be doing any damage so you have a choice of one or the other, more notably your actual most reasonable choice is to not equip sustained damage weapons at all to begin with in the mechlab. Whereas high alpha higher cooldown builds will simply fire, you shield and then fire again etc. successfully surviving and spreading out damage.

There is a huge discrepancy in what is required for the use of various weapons and the freedom of how you take damage, sustained damage weapons are in a very bad place in comparison to high alpha weaponry of any kind.


Almost everyone is after the CT as if tunnel vision gripped them, the bigger you are the more CT will be aimed for, but what if it was more equal or even the other way around.
What if to truly optimally kill a mech it would be more viable to strip them of their most dangerous limbs and side torsos, to kill a King Crab you would rather shoot its arms to disarm it, to kill a catapult you'd rather shoot its shoulder boom box junk, also making gaining information of a mech and using it properly more important and to utilise, as to see what is vulnerable and dangerous and go for it rather than blindly the CT.

I think it is very desirable to have clear mechanics in place which make it significantly advantageous to reduce incoming damage from the enemy mechs by intentionally first crippling them rather than going for the CT to kill them outright every time, the CT which should be a very protected part of the mech in my opinion should be THE strongpoint of any mech and more of a last resort aiming point to put it down rather than the universal target focus point.

So this suggestion focuses on all these issues, TTK, more interesting combat aiming regions, gameplay enhancement, and allowing sustained builds more leeway in terms of survival making shielding an option but not the definitive required tactic to survive.

What if the CT could allocate a substantial amount of extra armour.

Suggestion:
  • CT can now hold ~50% additional maximum armour with the compromise and expense of weight.
Results:
  • Players feel compelled to take advantage of the potentially higher CT armour, in general lowering their maximum weapon weight slightly, up to a couple tonnes less for the heaviest of mechs.
  • Makes aiming and taking out mech body parts more interesting as the relative armour difference becomes quite significant when tunneling the CT.
  • CT is still a legitimate focus point but not at all the go to always go for the CT as it is today.
  • TTK is raised both by increased overall defensive means and slightly reduced offensive means, while risky builds still stay risky.
  • Increases the viability of close range brawler builds to force a re-evaluation of previously set in stone combat tactics of hot snipers.
  • Sustained damage builds and mechs become more viable as their vulnerability is spread out rather than their existence based solely on how long their CT stays intact.
I know there are people who want MWO to remain a low TTK shooter, but I'm one of those who likes the idea of big tough robots degrading under fire in combat and finally fall down in pieces when they just can't take anymore, beefing up the CT is the most obvious way to create more interesting gameplay change in my opinion; The maximum alpha warrior online isn't really my cup of tea, I'd much rather see more place for sustained damage builds and in depth combat where arms and legs fly off more often as a result of an important tactic than just by accident.



Potential secondary concerns:
  • IS XL would need to be mechanically retuned, when a ST is taken out it would no longer kill the mech but simply slow it down by 20-33% per ST, however the IS XL could yield a structure penalty by say 50% reduction, and the STD a higher structure amount of say 50% to balance them. But these are secondary concerns and can be solved in many ways.
  • All ammo quantity/t would potentially be required to be increased slightly, 10-20%.
Would you like to have stronger CT's and mix up the game a bit with overall slightly higher TTK and some fun body part stripping aiming tactics?



Thank you.

Disclaimer: This is a concept suggestion, any numbers are placeholders to allow an example solution to be evaluated for its functional properties, it is not meant as a ready to implement solution, but an example to allow discussion about a potential solution in a manner like it.

Alternatively - find a way to decrease the amount of DPS?

Seriously, people shouldn't be alpha striking 3 ERLLs or 6 ERMLs constantly. Core mechanics are ****** up, hence the game is crazy.

#16 Alienized

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 08:03 PM

dropping ghost heat on lasers would have a good impact. currently IS has a advantage on that.
ghost heat on any large lasers and LPL at 3, med lasers at 5, small lasers at 7.
there you got your laservomit nerf. and all the ttk goes up.

btw, adding MORE armor/struc to the center is punishing mechs that require alot of facetime.
they rely on precision shooting to kill the enemy fast. they cant just alpha and twist.
punishing good shooters is not really acceptable.

#17 Milocinia

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 08:08 PM

One of my dislikes with the current quirk pass is structure buffs.

Once we get down to the structure, we're essentially on borrowed time. Structure buffs don't really do much to mitigate any of the "toughness" that some mechs are associated with. Armour buffs are definitely my preferred choice of buffness between it and structure. Whether all mechs need it is up for debate but when it comes to general survivability, CT armour is right at the top of the list of wants.

#18 FupDup

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 08:24 PM

View PostKyocera, on 02 January 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

One of my dislikes with the current quirk pass is structure buffs.

Once we get down to the structure, we're essentially on borrowed time. Structure buffs don't really do much to mitigate any of the "toughness" that some mechs are associated with. Armour buffs are definitely my preferred choice of buffness between it and structure. Whether all mechs need it is up for debate but when it comes to general survivability, CT armour is right at the top of the list of wants.

PGI buffs structure instead of armor because they want to trick people into thinking that crit-seeking weapons are actually useful.

In other news, the LB 10-X is really a good gun guise.

#19 BrockSamsonFW

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 08:55 PM

How about this (as stolen from years of forum posts by smarter people than myself):
  • Make all AC weapons burst fired like clan weapons
AND
  • Decrease heat cap to 30 for all mechs like it was supposed to be.
  • Adjust SHS and DHS so that it's more about sustainable firing than alpha strikes (ie so smaller mechs don't load ridiculous loadouts, nor can larger mechs alpha strike evaporate the smaller mechs, just have to be careful with this balance or the larger mechs have no advantage to taking more weapons than smaller mechs)
OR
  • Adjust heatsinks so that one type (single) has a higher heat cap but lower recovery rate (perhaps +2 heat capacity per SHS but only 1/s cooling) and the other type (double) has a lower heat cap but higher recovery rate (no added heat capacity but maybe 2/s cooling)
FINALLY
  • Do something with Gauss :)


#20 Milocinia

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 08:58 PM

View PostFupDup, on 02 January 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

PGI buffs structure instead of armor because they want to trick people into thinking that crit-seeking weapons are actually useful.

In other news, the LB 10-X is really a good gun guise.

Wait... we have a fully functioning "crit" system?

Damn I must try dem MGs and LBs before they run out of stock.





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