92 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Until there is an actual consequence for running hot

There is.

1) shutting down
2) you suffer internal structure damage

the heatscale now represents the amount of heat you can generate BEFORE consequences. At 100% and up you start to suffer the consequences for running hot.

Effectively what you want to do is just add lesser consequences at lower thresholds.

And I say that would kill energy weapons and herald in an age of ballistic dominance.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2016 - 11:07 AM.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 05 January 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

There is.

1) shutting down
2) you suffer internal structure damage

the heatscale now represents the amount of heat you can generate BEFORE consequences. At 100% and up you start to suffer the consequences for running hot.

Effectively what you want to do is just add lesser consequences at lower thresholds.

And I say that would kill energy weapons and herald in an age of ballistic dominance.

The heat scale doesn't have consequences
It has one singular consequence
Shut down when you hit the top of it

[MischiefSC]

A heat scale works, you just use the Solaris one. You also tweak it to match our massive increase in RoF.

So you put the reason you don't constant alpha back into BT. A heat scale involving slowing down, bad turn options, wobbly/twitchy crosshairs, failing HUD and such is a solid option. So a high heat high alpha build is no longer optimal. "Everyone will just go ballistics!"

Okay. It's rare to hit a 40 pt alpha with ballistics and that's at point blank. With the current edge of 40-60 alphas that's an improvement.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 05 January 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

The heat scale doesn't have consequences
It has one singular consequence
Shut down when you hit the top of it

You act like that isn't a major consequence. Not that it is as bad as it used to be in previous entries (shutdown periods are much shorter in MWO than in MW4 for example), but still it is the only major consequence outside of slight speed penalties. Anything else outside of that is more for immersion than actual consequences.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 January 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 05 January 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

Okay. It's rare to hit a 40 pt alpha with ballistics and that's at point blank. With the current edge of 40-60 alphas that's an improvement.

And here is the proof that pinpoint alphas arent the problem, it is how high you can get them using a boatload of energy weapons. So the question then becomes, how do you keep energy boats in check without killing them out right? Heat scale isn't really the answer, the answer is actually simpler, find the sweet spot for dissipation/capacity values. It really is that easy, heat scale should only be really added for immersion, not for balance.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 05 January 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

So you put the reason you don't constant alpha back into BT. .

that singular adjustment would do wonders for the game overall

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 January 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

And here is the proof that pinpoint alphas arent the problem, it is how high you can get them using a boatload of energy weapons. So the question then becomes, how do you keep energy boats in check without killing them out right? Heat scale isn't really the answer, the answer is actually simpler, find the sweet spot for dissipation/capacity values. It really is that easy, heat scale should only be really added for immersion, not for balance.

uhm
the pinpoint alpha isn't a laser issue, it's done and has been done with every weapon in the game.

Think it's a laser issue?
Let one of those new Jenner srm boats pop an alpha into you

[Khobai]

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So you put the reason you don't constant alpha back into BT. .

except plenty of mechs like awesome do constantly alpha in BT

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 05 January 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Balance is subjective, but the MG, Flamer, LBx family and missiles is hard to argue against being pretty bad to Terribad.

A 45 tonner can comfortably take 3LPLs (partially quirks, they make it effective), and anything larger. It's a pretty typical loadout (because LPLs are kickass weapons), between decent range, good damage, excellent duration and reasonable heat. Add low hardpoint count, and they're good.
A 65 tonner can do it with an STD. An Assault can do it with 20 heatsinks and backup lasers.

Indeed, Balance is subjective. That was my point. So when I hear someone espousing how they can make things balanced and need just the .XML file and 35 minutes, one can only shake ones head and carry on... So I am carrying on, again and again and again...

OK, I did a quick check. There are 88 Variants that cannot carry 3 LPL's due to lack of Energy HP's. So I guess 2 LPL's will have to do for them.

P.S. And what exactly do you want the Flamer to be able to do? Other than use up those most valuable LPL slots. lol

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 05 January 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

except plenty of mechs like awesome do constantly alpha in BT

Yes,but it's a 3/5 mech in TT. Have an awesome with 3 ppcs and over 24 dhs (with how heat is managed in mwo) I'm fine with it. A Dire Wolf speed Awesome with a 30pt alpha and 90m min range is totally balanced imo.

[Khobai]

Quote

Indeed, Balance is subjective.

no its not. either two things are equal or they arnt. thats the essence of balance. theres nothing subjective about it.

you can have your own opinion of balance certainly, but your opinion isnt what balance is based on, its based on cold hard win ratios which cant be disputed.

When both factions are winning roughly 50% of the time in a respectable sampling of games then youve achieved balance. Usually developers settle for +/- 5% though and thats considered balanced enough since perfect balance is an impossible goal.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2016 - 12:30 PM.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 05 January 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

except plenty of mechs like awesome do constantly alpha in BT

no they don't...

3 PPC and a small laser = what 31 heat and it has 28HS?
that's a net gain of 3 heat
without moving
if you walk add 1 (which means moving no more than 3 hexes)
if you run add 2

so if you walked 1 hex and alpha striked, that's 4 heat net gain
if you do it again, that's 8. At 8 heat it's -1 to attack and movement
if you do it again that's 12. At 12 heat that's -2 movement, -1 attack
if you do it a third time that's 16. At 16 heat that's -3 movement, -2 attack

That's 3 alphas and your movement rate is not reduced from 3-5 hexes to 1 hex and a -2 to your roll to hit.

That's huge in TT.

The Awesome is also one of the VERY few mechs that can alpha like that. Mech more commonly run MUCH hotter than the 8Q

[Khobai]

Quote

3 PPC and a small laser = what 31 heat and it has 28HS?

except you dont fire the small laser and PPCs at the same time. derpa derp derp.

small laser does damage under 90m. PPCs do no damage under 90m.

but most people who play BT still consider firing the 3 PPCs an alphastrike.

and why are you walking or running? thats stupid. PPCs have decently long range and you get the same defensive bonus for standing in woods.

the whole point of an awesome is to just stand there and alphastrike PPCs. thats all it does. and it does it every turn without overheating. +30 heat and 30 heat dissipation. I dont think ive ever once used the ****** small laser.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Sandpit, on 05 January 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

no they don't...

3 PPC and a small laser = what 31 heat and it has 28HS?
that's a net gain of 3 heat
without moving
if you walk add 1 (which means moving no more than 3 hexes)
if you run add 2

so if you walked 1 hex and alpha striked, that's 4 heat net gain
if you do it again, that's 8. At 8 heat it's -1 to attack and movement
if you do it again that's 12. At 12 heat that's -2 movement, -1 attack
if you do it a third time that's 16. At 16 heat that's -3 movement, -2 attack

That's 3 alphas and your movement rate is not reduced from 3-5 hexes to 1 hex and a -2 to your roll to hit.

That's huge in TT.

The Awesome is also one of the VERY few mechs that can alpha like that. Mech more commonly run MUCH hotter than the 8Q

I suggested in a thread to use varying severities of reticle shake to simulate the attack penalty from TT. Also, instead of pilot injury (because we don't have it for some reason) to use varying degrees of g-force vision blur. Everything from the TT heat scale can be accurately translated to MWO. Imagine the dynamics of having to hit override multiple times to avoid a shutdown. I can dream.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 05 January 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

except plenty of mechs like awesome do constantly alpha in BT

If by BT you mean TT, then isn't an "alpha" really separate weapons being fired once within 10 seconds?

If so, what's the problem?

(I never played TT, hence the question)

Edited by Mystere, 05 January 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 05 January 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

the pinpoint alpha isn't a laser issue, it's done and has been done with every weapon in the game.

Did you not read what I quoted, he said that ballistic only alphas are not a problem, if this is true, then pinpoint alphas aren't inherently the problem, high energy alphas are.

Sandpit, on 05 January 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Let one of those new Jenner srm boats pop an alpha into you

You do realize that isn't a pinpoint alpha, sure the missiles converge on wherever your reticle is, but without that, spread weapons like SRMs would be worthless, so can you give me a better example, one that isn't so gimmicky (Oxides are probably better overall than the IIC version)?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 January 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

If by BT you mean TT, then isn't an "alpha" really separate weapons being fired once within 10 seconds?

Id consider any alphastrike anytime you fire a ****!@# of weapons at once. Firing weapons that wouldnt do any damage is just stupid and isnt required for it to be an alphastrike. So like an awesome unloading three PPCs is still an alphastrike, just because it didnt fire the small laser doesnt make it not an alphastrike. Or like if a masakari has 4 erppcs and an lrm10 and it fires the 4 erppcs because firing the lrm10 doesnt make sense its still an alphastrike as far as im concerned.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 05 January 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

An alphastrike is firing all your weapons at once that make sense to fire at once.

If a masakari has 4 erppcs and an lrm10 and it fires the 4 erppcs because firing the lrm10 doesnt make sense its still a alphastrike as far as im concerned.

And that's what I meant.

But still, what is the problem if you are forced to fire your PPCs one at a time every 3 seconds or so instead of simultaneously to avoid shutting down, given that a TT round is actually 10 seconds and an "alpha" does not necessarily mean simultaneous?

[Khobai]

Quote

And that's what I meant.

But still, what is the problem if you are forced to fire your PPCs one at a time every 3 seconds or so instead of simultaneously to avoid shutting down, given that a TT round is actually 10 seconds and an "alpha" does not necessarily mean simultaneous?

Right and thats how solaris rules worked. It broke a normal 10 seconds turn into 4 smaller turns. And then it quadrupled heat generation and heat dissipation but kept all the heat penalties the same.

But what people are forgetting is that mobility matters WAY MORE in MWO than it does in tabletop. Movement penalties arnt a big deal in tabletop but they mean certain death in MWO. If you slow down in MWO you die.

So in order to avoid heat-related movement penalties that would result in death, people would switch over to ballistic loadouts, which never overheat.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2016 - 02:25 PM.

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 January 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

You act like that isn't a major consequence. Not that it is as bad as it used to be in previous entries (shutdown periods are much shorter in MWO than in MW4 for example), but still it is the only major consequence outside of slight speed penalties. Anything else outside of that is more for immersion than actual consequences.

shutting down for 3 seconds after shooting off every weapon you have repeatedly is not, in my opinion, a major consequence

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 January 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Did you not read what I quoted, he said that ballistic only alphas are not a problem, if this is true, then pinpoint alphas aren't inherently the problem, high energy alphas are.


You do realize that isn't a pinpoint alpha, sure the missiles converge on wherever your reticle is, but without that, spread weapons like SRMs would be worthless, so can you give me a better example, one that isn't so gimmicky (Oxides are probably better overall than the IIC version)?

you do realize I'M not talking pinpoint right?
there's more to it than simply PPD
FLD is the issue when it comes to PPD and instant convergence.

Lasers aren't an issue when it comes to this because they don't do all of their damage instantly.