134 replies to this topic

[Quintus Verus]

Glad Alpine is staying. We need as many wide open maps as possible. Taking the center mountain out or chopping the top 2 elevation off would mollify all the whine and cheese folks. There are great areas to fight at bottom of the map but everyone blindly charges the hill. Remove the hill, remove the whine.

Edited by Quintus Verus, 05 January 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 January 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

So what if it creates a stalemate?

Welcome to wargaming. First to get impatient, loses. The timer is what forces things. People can choose to sit around and do nothing, but that almost NEVER happens. Especially if you can catch an enemy straggler with a wolf pack or such in the beginning. But in nearly 3 years of playign that map IF I can get people to actualyl listen and be disciplined, we have held the lowlands and won virtually every time.

It's a matter of which team has the discipline to truly be the defender.

But again, that's a player problem, not really a map problem. I'm not saying I'm in love with the hill being there, but it's not the end of all things for it to be.

Also, I find it often helps to be snide and insulting after a few minutes.... almost always gets an epeen commando to do something stupid.

Don't forget that you can always force the enemy to abandon Mt. Derp by sending a skilled assassin to get one or two of them. When they're down 1 or 2, staying put just leads to a loss.

And yes, hurling smack talk after that does help a lot.

AssaultPig, on 04 January 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

on most other maps, there are ways to flank or force defensive teams out of obvious hardpoints; on therma (for example) there are four entrances to the center. On other maps it's possible to flank, or get above the other team and use air strikes, etc.

On alpine there are no such options; it's either charge up the hill, or sit in whatever remote spot you want and hope the team that takes the hill is dumb enough to come to you. If both teams are dumb the first to the top of the hill wins; if both teams are smart it's a boring stalemate. This is a problem with the map, not with the players.

You are forgetting a third option: ninja assassins.

MeiSooHaityu, on 05 January 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

River City definitely should have had the Citadel leveled. It could have been a small pile of ruble with limited cover and it would have helped change the map flow. Still, part of me wonders if upper City wouldn't be the new meeting spot if the Citadel was gone.

This should be River City:



<maniacal >

Edited by Mystere, 05 January 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mystere, on 05 January 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

This should be River City:



<maniacal >

No arguments from me . I think we would need more than 15 minutes for a match. We would need at least 20 minutes to find somone on our team .

[Rokuzachi]

Glad to hear it. I've always enjoyed Alpine, at least when people aren't content to just play peek-a-hill forever. Some of the best games I've ever had/seen played were Alpine Conquest and Assault.

[Roadkill]

AssaultPig, on 04 January 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

the team that gets to the top of the i9 hill first is at a decisive advantage

Except not.

The hill defender is perched on a relatively narrow ledge and has almost no room to maneuver. If the team assaulting the hill is coordinated, they can easily abuse that lack of room.

In other words, as with all other maps, teamwork is OP. The I9 hill is not the fortress that people are making it out to be. In fact I find that defending H10 (the opposite side of the high plateau) is vastly preferable to defending I9, primarily because it gives you a natural firing line that the enemy can't assault in part without facing the entire line, but I have a hard time convincing the derps to give it a try.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 05 January 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

The "Lemming" mentality seem so often on most of the MWO Maps?

I say zombies, not lemmings. But then again these look "smarter":

[Mystere]

MeiSooHaityu, on 05 January 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

No arguments from me . I think we would need more than 15 minutes for a match. We would need at least 20 minutes to find somone on our team .

Only if you do not communicate with your team. But then again the solo queue is overflowing with such players.

[PAINLESS 42]

I like Alpine Peaks a lot, and it's only unbalanced if one side gets the mountain, and the other team is insistent on charging up it to their deaths like the light brigade. Just don't fall for that bait. You don't need to "re-balance" a map just because one questionable tactic doesn't work on it.

The other complaint is " it favors long range mechs" well, yeah it does, and? so your ultimetmeta TDR MPL build isn't at it's best, so? How much do you think my 6X AC-2 KC likes Veridian Bog? no one says that map is broken because it favors short-ranged mechs.

Alpine is a refreshing break from the fog/dusk/snow and hidden tripping objects on so many other maps.

[Sandpit]

Roadkill, on 05 January 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Except not.

The hill defender is perched on a relatively narrow ledge and has almost no room to maneuver. If the team assaulting the hill is coordinated, they can easily abuse that lack of room.

In other words, as with all other maps, teamwork is OP. The I9 hill is not the fortress that people are making it out to be. In fact I find that defending H10 (the opposite side of the high plateau) is vastly preferable to defending I9, primarily because it gives you a natural firing line that the enemy can't assault in part without facing the entire line, but I have a hard time convincing the derps to give it a try.

F9

I promise if you set up in F9 area, the other team "holding" Mt. Derp will regret ever tromping up that mountain. There's far more cover, room to move and reset firing lines, room to push either side, attack avenues for the enemy's base, and better LoS vantage points believe it or not.

[Bluttrunken]

PAINLESS 42, on 05 January 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

How much do you think my 6X AC-2 KC likes Veridian Bog? no one says that map is broken because it favors short-ranged mechs.

KGC is great on Bog. It has tons of narrow chokepoints which beg to be drowned in heavy ballistics fire.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 05 January 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[Pjwned]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 January 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

so you HAVE to go against the entrenched position when there are other better battlegrounds out of reach of the mountain?

People being too impatient or unimaginative to actualyl use the map, ain't a map problem. It's an ADHD generation of gamers problem.

Spawn points could be "better" but even the "worst" spawn is actually only bad...if you insist on fighting for Candy Mountain.

Me? I'd rather have the team go to the low south spawn point and make the opfor come to me.

The problem is that there's not much reason for the other team to not take the entrenched position because it's so easy to get to, because of both spawn points and map design.

Do you have to march up that hill every time? No, but the other team took that position for a reason, and if a map consistently comes down to waiting several minutes for the other team to make a move because the map easily allows for lengthy stalemates, that is boring and bad design.

Is there a reason for the hill team to take another approach? Vast majority of the time, no; perhaps if bases were moved to different locations in Assault then that might change how 1 (of 2 problem) mode(s) plays though.

Does that make the map bad? Yeah, it kind of does, but that flaw is really about the only thing that makes the map bad so fixing it would make the map much better.

Mystere, on 04 January 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

Don't fight on the hill like every other zombie swarm out there?

Cool, that's not improving the map though.

Mystere, on 04 January 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

Tired of fighting on Mt. Derp? Then force the enemy to fight in another place of your choosing ... and butcher them.

It's misleading to suggest "forcing" the enemy to fight somewhere else when all that means is waiting while the enemy waits for you.

That's not forcing much.

Edited by Pjwned, 06 January 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Pjwned]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 January 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

So what if it creates a stalemate?

Welcome to wargaming. First to get impatient, loses. The timer is what forces things. People can choose to sit around and do nothing, but that almost NEVER happens. Especially if you can catch an enemy straggler with a wolf pack or such in the beginning. But in nearly 3 years of playign that map IF I can get people to actualyl listen and be disciplined, we have held the lowlands and won virtually every time.

It's a matter of which team has the discipline to truly be the defender.

But again, that's a player problem, not really a map problem. I'm not saying I'm in love with the hill being there, but it's not the end of all things for it to be.

Also, I find it often helps to be snide and insulting after a few minutes.... almost always gets an epeen commando to do something stupid.

"So what" and "welcome to wargaming" isn't an actual argument against stalemates. There should always be room for a team to make some sort of (probably risky) maneuver to gain the offensive advantage, and on most maps that actually is the case (even if other maps are also bad) but that's not the case at all with Alpine where your advantage comes from seeing who can sit with their thumb in their *** the longest.

It's not even about ADHD, it's about that sort of crap being completely pointless.

Mystere, on 05 January 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Don't forget that you can always force the enemy to abandon Mt. Derp by sending a skilled assassin to get one or two of them. When they're down 1 or 2, staying put just leads to a loss.

Right, because if they take the hill it means they're braindead and thus bad and thus you are guaranteed to get results by sending a "skilled assassin" (what's that? don't have one on the team? oh...) that has only 1 real approach through a wide open area.

Edited by Pjwned, 06 January 2016 - 07:40 AM.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 06 January 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Right, because if they take the hill it means they're braindead and thus bad and thus you are guaranteed to get results by sending a "skilled assassin" (what's that? don't have one on the team? oh...) that has only 1 real approach through a wide open area.

Psst! I'm usually the assassin.

And if people don't know how someone can get a good position while remaining unnoticed and take one of them out, that's on them.

So again, the complaint against Alpine seems to center more on people not knowing or plainly refusing to do anything else. That's not a map problem. That's a people problem. The map is just an excuse.

Edited by Mystere, 06 January 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 06 January 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

And if people don't know how someone can get a good position while remaining unnoticed and take one of them out, that's on them.

A) The positions you can take while actually accomplishing anything are almost entirely out in the open and quite easy to spot somebody in.

B) How do you "remain unnoticed" while taking somebody out unless you're exclusively dealing with the worst of the underhive?

Quote

So again, the complaint against Alpine seems to center more on people not knowing or plainly refusing to do anything else. That's not a map problem. That's a people problem. The map is just an excuse.

The problem is there aren't better options and that's because the map is flawed.

[RockmachinE]

I love Alpine, its one of the last maps with open swooping terrain that allows for a different kind of combat. Yes noob-rush mountain is the focus of the map 95% of the time, but I've had some of my most memorable matches on this map.

Pugtip: try to get your team to use a different tactic then mountain rush, I've managed to do this several times. So much fun!

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 06 January 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

A) The positions you can take while actually accomplishing anything are almost entirely out in the open and quite easy to spot somebody in.

How do you "remain unnoticed" while taking somebody out unless you're exclusively dealing with the worst of the underhive?

The "unnoticed" part refers to positioning for the kill. If the enemy does not notice one of their own just died, that's a different problem altogether.

Pjwned, on 06 January 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

The problem is there aren't better options and that's because the map is flawed.

There are options. The problem is that there are a whole lot of players who lack the patience to pursue them. And for me, playing on Alpine is a "patience" game.

[Mystere]

Roadkill, on 05 January 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Except not.

The hill defender is perched on a relatively narrow ledge and has almost no room to maneuver. If the team assaulting the hill is coordinated, they can easily abuse that lack of room.

In other words, as with all other maps, teamwork is OP. The I9 hill is not the fortress that people are making it out to be. In fact I find that defending H10 (the opposite side of the high plateau) is vastly preferable to defending I9, primarily because it gives you a natural firing line that the enemy can't assault in part without facing the entire line, but I have a hard time convincing the derps to give it a try.

In a related note, there is a reason why I think the H11-I13 area of Alpine Peaks is a great location for a CW base.

[DjPush]

I always prefere the K2 and L2 defense tactic. No one ever listens to me though.

[SilentWolff]

Alpine is one of their better maps, glad it's gonna stay in the rotation.

[Kjudoon]

DjPush, on 06 January 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

I always prefere the K2 and L2 defense tactic. No one ever listens to me though.

Too much ADD is why. It's easy to change the whole perception of the game by just not advancing and letting the other side's impatience destroy them.