116 replies to this topic

[MrJeffers]

cSand, on 08 January 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

It says "unit games the system" not "units gaming the system" - big difference in what it implies so read more carefully OK. There are lots of great units in this game. The large unit boogeyman is not real but a few bad apples can and have spoiled the bunch in the past - hence the perceived need for a "misconceptions" thread such as this. You really think the general opinion of large units is so low in CW for no reason?

I was responding directly to his comment so I'm not sure how much less general I can get. He's a big boy he can respond if he wants it doesn't really matter though. There's nothing to call out, I just was saying the irony of his condescending post there given the group he represents

Except you are 100% wrong about NS. So your post is a complete non-sequitur. So I assumed you were using a generalization, my bad. Doesn't change that you are incorrect in your assertion though.

[cSand]

MrJeffers, on 08 January 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

Except you are 100% wrong about NS. So your post is a complete non-sequitur. So I assumed you were using a generalization, my bad. Doesn't change that you are incorrect in your assertion though.

Yea, wrong guy, so my bad, lol.

Had it been the right guy though, I TELL YA




beleting my posts now

[TLBFestus]

1. The map design sucks. It's choke points and bottlenecks, which I, and probably lots of others, see no point in going up an organized 12 man group that (wisely) uses these areas to concentrate fire and kill the inexperienced.

2. You may think it's not fun, but others do. It's how they pad their KDR. You don't have to be particularly good to do this if you are in a group and use force multipliers to artificially inflate your stats. I might even agree with your opinion that "most" groups don't like fighting and farming PUGs, but the reality is that there are enough groups that do it, and do it with relish, that CW deserves it's reputation.

3. Nice to know you like it, but just because you say it doesn't make it true for others. The preponderance of posts from solo/PUG players that have bad experiences seems to indicate that it's not as "fun" for lots of us.

4. That's true. I hang with my friends on TS when I play and we enjoy ourselves. We win some we lose some, and often we lose badly because we are casual and just having fits and giggles. As much as many of you shout to the roof tops "Just join a team" you just don't seem to get it...many people are just NOT interested. Accept that.

5. Probably a salient point, but I defer to point #4 again.

6. Again, point #4..... Accept it, many people don't want to do this. They aren't interested, it's not their bag, they are one man wolf packs. It works for you in CW, it works for me in PUGLandia, but it's not on the menu for many, many others.

7. Like I said, I use TS too I have no argument with you here, what you say is basically true, however there just are people who don't want to use it, who don't have microphones or headsets, who don't like meeting strangers and they just want to sit back and shoot stuff randomly for awhile after a hard days work.

8. This game is a game. It has a social component to it, just like ANY other multiplayer game out there and it's available for those who WANT to participate in it. See, I don't see many people who are on a TEAM, I see players who are in an arbitrarily assigned GROUP, or a SIDE, and they want to shoot at the stuff on the other side.

My social component is similar to yours, many nights I get on TS, I hang with my friends and we shoot stuff up. While I enjoy it, I can also play solo and more or less follow my "team" around and act sorta organized and still have fun.

That's what you are up against. MWO is a basic MP arena shooter with shockingly little real depth to it when you consider that game play. CW is just an extension of that with a pretty planetary map included and no enticements, no impact, nothing real to make it different except that it magnifies the power of organization and punishes the solo.

Since the solo player (taken from RB's own mouth) consists of about 80% of the community you guys are in the minority. Especially when you consider that you are posting about this in the forums, where even LESS of the population of this game ever even visits. There is a HUGE majority out there that just want to blast away at stuff that will never even read your points, and could care less about them, or mine.

TLDR: Most players are casual and don't give a damn about CW, getting on teams and what's being debated here. They do know that when they wander into CW that it's a hostile environment and doesn't cater to what they want, and they won't stick around as long as it exists as it is now. When it changes, it will cater to them more. Don't know how..but it will.

[Lykaon]

sycocys, on 08 January 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

#2 - With only a few exceptions this is pretty much flat out untrue. Unless its mostly honorable like MS, Kcom, or 228 - as soon as units outside the FRR hit competition they go fight on another border.

And there's a reason for this, because the reward system rewards them far better for doing so. More LP, 300k c-bills per match if they don't actually face the possibility of loss.

Listing three of the largest units as "honorable" based pretty much entirely on the fact that they are also capable of running a 10-12 man team seems to me misleading.

A group of four with a pack of skiddels isn't going to have much chance of beating an organized 10 or 12 man but a Kcom 228 or MS 10 man...no problem.

You are not wrong when pointing out that the 4 mans (and less resolute larger groups) stand to make more c-bills off puggy fights than bashing their heads against 10 to 12 man coordinated teams with little chance of winning with team compositions of 4+2+2+1+1+1+1 vs 10+2 So do you blame smaller groups for choosing to fight 4+2+2+1+1+1+1 vs a similar number of groups and format?

I don't blame them one bit.

[NextGame]

AssaultPig, on 08 January 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

#2 just isn't true, unless you believe that all the players in these units are simply idiots.

if these units actually wanted competitive matches, they'd be organizing to join opposing factions with adjacent borders (and likely, splitting up into sub-units so they could more easily play against one another.) Instead, what they do is congregate in a handful of large 'super-units' on the same side/faction (clans during tukayyid, now IS.)

the suggestion that these units be forcibly broken up to generate more competitive matches / better faction distribution was met with entirely predictable gnashing of teeth

********, there's nothing more exciting than dropping in cw and finding yourself playing against another unit.

[Lensman Prime]

Did the clarification work?

[Coolant]

While I applaud the OP in bringing up teamwork, Teamspeak, communication and joining a unit (I wholeheartedly support, although joining a unit isn't for everyone), #2 I don't agree with.

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

...these cases, most units will dial it back a bit, PUG stomps are not that common, no matter what the forums may lead you to believe.

If this were true, then please explain how 9/10 matches, in my experience, end in the enemy team pushing up into my spawn when my team is down by several in kills, when they could just kill Omega?

[Felbombling]

Here is an interesting question for the larger groups that tend to avoid contact with other larger groups...

What kind of incentive is needed to make it worth your while to actually engage these units? One million C-Bills up front to compensate for what you would otherwise make against a PuG group? A scrolling ticker along the bottom of the forums for unit recognition for all to see? Toss some ideas out there.

[MrJeffers]

Coolant, on 08 January 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

While I applaud the OP in bringing up teamwork, Teamspeak, communication and joining a unit (I wholeheartedly support, although joining a unit isn't for everyone), #2 I don't agree with.



If this were true, then please explain how 9/10 matches, in my experience, end in the enemy team pushing up into my spawn when my team is down by several in kills, when they could just kill Omega?

Because there are zero rewards, no XP, no Loyalty points, no C-Bills for destroying omega.

[Karkland]

MrJeffers, on 08 January 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Because there are zero rewards, no XP, no Loyalty points, no C-Bills for destroying omega.

I don't play CW and am not seeking to change it to fit my own desire, but... that sounds like you DO want to farm PUGs (as opposed to what #2 says - "Units aren't looking to farm PUGs"), at least when you find yourself matched against those that can be farmed.

I understand there's a big difference between farming PUGs due to the lopsided reward system vs. wanting to farm PUGs to inflict suffering, but I suspect for the pugger getting farmed it doesn't feel too different.

Edited by Karkland, 08 January 2016 - 03:22 PM.

[PerfectDuck]

cSand, on 08 January 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

Yea, wrong guy, so my bad, lol.

Had it been the right guy though, I TELL YA




beleting my posts now

Lol. It's cool.

[MrJeffers]

Karkland, on 08 January 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

I don't play CW and am not seeking to change it to fit my own desire, but... that sounds like you DO want to farm PUGs (as opposed to what #2 says - "Units aren't looking to farm PUGs"), at least when you find yourself matched against those that can be farmed.

I understand there's a big difference between farming PUGs due to the lopsided reward system vs. wanting to farm PUGs to inflict suffering, but I suspect for the pugger getting farmed it doesn't feel too different.

There is also a big difference of wanting to get a match where spawn camping happens, and ending up in one because that's the way the queue created the skill imbalanced teams for the match.

Just because people want rewards, doesn't mean they want to farm PUGs. These are two completely different desires. A close match that goes down to the wire with a near even kill count means eveyone in the match gets the best rewards. A stomp with omega dead in 5-8 minutes means everyone gets crap rewards.

Edited by MrJeffers, 08 January 2016 - 03:57 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Coolant, on 08 January 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

It

If this were true, then please explain how 9/10 matches, in my experience, end in the enemy team pushing up into my spawn when my team is down by several in kills, when they could just kill Omega?

Ha-ha just wait and see what happen when planets are worth something. These comp unit are going to smash you in 2-3 minutes. Atleast when they push the drop zone you can make a little money.

[MechWarrior3671771]

PerfectDuck, on 08 January 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

The point of this thread is to clear up misconceptions. People who disagree with #2, I can understand why, because it might be mentally taxing to try to view the world from others' viewpoints and to try to grasp that there are people who think and act differently from others. It's a fallacy to assume just because you do something or think a certain way, that everybody else will follow that same logic.

Chances are if you're hung up on #2, the concept of competitive play is foreign to you and that you yourself are not really a competitive player. That's fine but these baseless accusations are getting really offensive. I'm going to try to spell it out here.

Your first post was good, even though I am skeptical of some of the points you raised. And I understand your frustration with people like me, but if you are going to get insulting, I will just insult you back, and the thread will devolve just like all the others. Do you want to play that game? I would rather not, even though I'm pretty good at it. Forum wars are not going to solve anything. And as most my offensive nature is the result of *responding* to insults, I would ask nicely that you do your best to remain civil.

I'm glad you are trying to explain this from the comp team's pov, because it shows me the shaming about farming newbies in trial mechs has worked, at least enough for people like you to take it serious and respond with explanations to clear the air.

Problem you have, as others have mentioned upthread, is that the actions of many comp teams don't match your words. Too many of us have seen it firsthand. Russ has also said that his stats show comp teams are deliberately avoiding each other to farm newbies. And the new steam players I've talked to have told me the same - they aren't quitting CW (and even MWO) because they are getting stomped, they are quiting because they feel they aren't being allowed to play the game. They don't enjoy waiting 20 mins for a drop only to have their 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped. Dead before they even hit the ground. Can't say I blame them. There are too many other games out there that are 1) more fun and 2) have less wait times

My position is that the Steamers are already playing CW, they are already here. They will be the last mass infusion of new blood we have in CW, and we need as many of them to stay as possible - for selfish reasons - I want more drops, less wait time, less ghost drops, and I want more people to play against. Many of you act like we can get a second and third shot at retaining these new players ("come back when you L2P and have joined a team"), I don't agree - I think this is our only chance and we are blowing it.

Now, we can go back and forth over all the above for 10 pages and get nowhere. I get that you have incentives to farm points - but I think that's short-sighted because you are killing the future of CW over what? Cbills and LPs that won't matter anymore if we run off the new players? I also get that its inconvenient to pair up against other comp teams, but then I remember all the other inconvenient things comp teams have done to game the system when they wanted to, so that doesn't fly with me either. And I think the "we can't control who we drop against" line is just an excuse - no you can't control that, but you can control whether you spawncamp the newbies or let them form up and play out their last two waves. It looks to be more about shaving 3-5 mins off your play time, at their expense.

But instead of hashing all that out all over again, tell me what it would take to incentivize comp teams to seek each other out instead of blaming the devs for "making us" farm newbies in trial mechs? Give us some ideas of changes that could be made to make it easier for you to find the competition and challenge your side claims they really want?

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 08 January 2016 - 04:44 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Great topic post. I agree, considering how much of the faction play is done, which is less than half, it is a lot of fun and has great staying power. Looking forward to the next phase a lot. Even after the next phase which is said to be huge I bet there is even more to be done.

[PerfectDuck]

Yo, I'm not the OP.

When a crumby team of pugs enters CW mode and fail to deliver even a semblance of a fight, it's us the competitive team who is the victim of having their time wasted in a colossal way. Usually after the first 12 enemies go down, they never even venture outside of their spawn or a footstep away from the O-gens. We're the ones trying to get our game faces on, doing what we can to fight the good fight, coordinating our decks and getting everything set up so that we have absolutely no excuses if we lose. And then these pugs have the audacity to accuse us of trying to get the match over with quickly as if that's such a bad thing.

As for teams avoiding each other in CW? NS is not a part of that problem. We're competitive and looking for good fights. There was a time when we were desperate for any match, easy or hard, when we were doing the 'mechbay tour' as it wasn't easy even getting games to happen at all in time for us to get quick Rank6's but that was brief and it had nothing to do with a desire to sealclub. We're currently in CJF specifically to have access to Steiner and FRR competition since we wanted to honor the Kurita/FRR peace.

We are actually avoiding one unit though...

Spoiler

[MechWarrior3671771]

Here's a simple fix - change the queue screen to show boths side's que to both teams. Put the extra screen on the left side of "planet info". That way, when you click to defend/attack, you can see if its 12 solos or a premade you'll be going up against.

Solo players would be able to see they would be facing a 12 man before they accept the contract.

Comp teams would be able to find other premades whenever they wanted

"Hey guys, there's a 12 man formed up to attack Geidi Prime, lets go get em!"

How hard would that be to add? The coding is already in place, its just a matter of letting each side see the other.
No one gets punished or nerfed. New players can avoid premades if they want, premades can find each other and get the challenge they claim they want.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 08 January 2016 - 05:03 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

Fen Tetsudo, on 08 January 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Here's a simple fix - change the queue screen to show boths side's que to both teams. Put the extra screen on the left side of "planet info". That way, when you click to defend/attack, you can see if its 12 solos or a premade you'll be going up against.

Solo players would be able to see they would be facing a 12 man before they accept the contract.

Comp teams would be able to find other premades whenever they wanted

"Hey guys, there's a 12 man formed up to attack Geidi Prime, lets go get em!"

How hard would that be to add? The coding is already in place, its just a matter of letting each side see the other.
No one gets punished or nerfed. New players can avoid premades if they want, premades can find each other and get the challenge they claim they want.

Sounds simple, but then creates the problem you think it would avoid since now people can see who they are or would be queued against they can deliberately avoid them. It enables the behavior to avoid matches that people think would be too hard, and makes it easier to do so. Don't even have to switch factions.

Something that can't be done now since you can't see who you are going against in the queue, and if you don't think there are a lot more people who would actively drop out of a queue if they thought the match was going to be too tough compared to units that make alliances or switch factions to avoid each other, you are seriously naive.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 08 January 2016 - 05:22 PM.

[ccrider]

Fen Tetsudo, on 08 January 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Here's a simple fix - change the queue screen to show boths side's que to both teams. Put the extra screen on the left side of "planet info". That way, when you click to defend/attack, you can see if its 12 solos or a premade you'll be going up against.

Solo players would be able to see they would be facing a 12 man before they accept the contract.

Comp teams would be able to find other premades whenever they wanted

"Hey guys, there's a 12 man formed up to attack Geidi Prime, lets go get em!"

How hard would that be to add? The coding is already in place, its just a matter of letting each side see the other.
No one gets punished or nerfed. New players can avoid premades if they want, premades can find each other and get the challenge they claim they want.

I like the idea of seeing who's in the other queue. Facing other units makes for a more tense and exciting match.

[Karkland]

MrJeffers, on 08 January 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

There is also a big difference of wanting to get a match where spawn camping happens, and ending up in one because that's the way the queue created the skill imbalanced teams for the match.

Just because people want rewards, doesn't mean they want to farm PUGs. These are two completely different desires. A close match that goes down to the wire with a near even kill count means eveyone in the match gets the best rewards. A stomp with omega dead in 5-8 minutes means everyone gets crap rewards.

I was thinking more of what happens when you find yourself in that pug match as opposed to whether or not you want the pug match in the first place. That said, if you're waiting 20 minutes for a match then finishing off a match quickly instead of farming doesn't provide any benefit, I guess.