116 replies to this topic

[Bonger Bob]

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

.............

3. Never matching up with better opponents doesn't help you get better, it helps you stagnate at your current level. Why would an average player suddenly get better playing other average players? You get better by testing yourself and playing better teams tests you.

...........

this is an issue related to there only being 5 tiers in quick play and none in CW. This statement could equally be used to advocate the separation of CW ques and the introduction of a match maker in CW. Teams don't improve by feeding on disorganized pugs. Teams don't improve by being up against other less skilled teams. Teams improve by playing against equally skilled teams they get paired against.

equally it could be argued that the current match maker system of tiers used to pair groups up does provide a challenge and the room to improve, its limited by the slow progression through the later tiers and the limited number of them. This is not to be confused with a solo player who needs "your" training.

If you want to provide training to players and force them into groups for a game mode, make it apart of the client or push for blocking solo's from CW.

Lets imagine there are no solo players, ONLY teams. CW ques flow, and roflstomps remain. Teams have no challenge except for random luck OR they start "match making" of their own by "gaming" the CW que systems. All of this leads to the inevitability of a CW match maker being put in place with rankings deciding who pairs against who.

Face the fact, pugs not joining a team is separate issue, its got nothing to do with the problems that exist in CW that are a result of entrenched bad behaviors and people wanting to think of themselves as better than others while being unwilling to accept that there is no skill in roflstomping less skilled players, team tagged or otherwise.

Match making and player rating to determine a competitive pairing results in players "getting better" and progressing through the ranks, being paired against higher skilled players as they go up in ranks. The unskilled player who refuses to learn or improve will remain in a lower rank and never progress, that's their problem.

Far too many are trying to force people to do things out of the game client. Thats what teams are currently.

GET TEAM FUNCTIONS INCORPORATED INTO THE GAME CLIENT, then cry about people not joining teams. But the issues of solo's and teams are separate to the problems existing in CW.

You can't seriously believe that if everyone was in a team, there would be no roflstomping ??

[Bonger Bob]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

The reason I always suggest the faction TS hubs is because you are not ever required to join a team - you just find people to drop with and hope to make the best of it with them. There is no pressure to join a team.. although it is suggested and better served (because your skills are very likely to improve with input), but not a requirement.

The moment PGI add a "join CW faction voip" button anywhere in the client interface, ill happily click it. And a microphone used on voip to take the place of typing advice does not effect your ability to give it. Nor does not having a mic alter anyones ability to receive it. So we then come to the problem of the players not being in "your voip channel". Thats a PGI game design ( or lack of ) problem, and has nothing to do with learning skills. I understand your desire to use TS, it's better voip than the game provides, don't confuse the issues.

Deathlike, on 08 January 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

Good players know how to drop solo in CW... but most that drop solo are not of that type. CW is supposed to be the "end game mode", but the new player should never be in the "end game scenario" matchup... they will have a bad time (MM or no MM).

if its the end game, hard mode, only for teams, MAKE IT SO. While it remains fact that you can join as a solo un-team tagged player, its going to have pugs, and as the teams have said they need the pug's, but they don't seem to want the roflstomp to end by even remotely allowing a match maker to be put in place. Id welcome it being closed to pugs, or setup a separate "training mode" that would allow pugs to drop vs pugs, but again the roflstomp will end so people cry out in horror.

make your minds up people, want competitive rounds ?? want people to join teams ??? accept that changes to segregate the pugs from CW need to happen. Don't like that idea, then accept that driving players away from a game mode and over half of the game will damage it long term and we eventually end up back to needing a match maker and rankings in CW. The issue at hand with CW is the roflstomp lack of matching, not the solo player.

Edited by Bonger Bob, 08 January 2016 - 08:25 PM.

[ccrider]

Bonger Bob, on 08 January 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

this is an issue related to there only being 5 tiers in quick play and none in CW. This statement could equally be used to advocate the separation of CW ques and the introduction of a match maker in CW. Teams don't improve by feeding on disorganized pugs. Teams don't improve by being up against other less skilled teams. Teams improve by playing against equally skilled teams they get paired against.

equally it could be argued that the current match maker system of tiers used to pair groups up does provide a challenge and the room to improve, its limited by the slow progression through the later tiers and the limited number of them. This is not to be confused with a solo player who needs "your" training.

If you want to provide training to players and force them into groups for a game mode, make it apart of the client or push for blocking solo's from CW.

Lets imagine there are no solo players, ONLY teams. CW ques flow, and roflstomps remain. Teams have no challenge except for random luck OR they start "match making" of their own by "gaming" the CW que systems. All of this leads to the inevitability of a CW match maker being put in place with rankings deciding who pairs against who.

Face the fact, pugs not joining a team is separate issue, its got nothing to do with the problems that exist in CW that are a result of entrenched bad behaviors and people wanting to think of themselves as better than others while being unwilling to accept that there is no skill in roflstomping less skilled players, team tagged or otherwise.

Match making and player rating to determine a competitive pairing results in players "getting better" and progressing through the ranks, being paired against higher skilled players as they go up in ranks. The unskilled player who refuses to learn or improve will remain in a lower rank and never progress, that's their problem.

Far too many are trying to force people to do things out of the game client. Thats what teams are currently.

GET TEAM FUNCTIONS INCORPORATED INTO THE GAME CLIENT, then cry about people not joining teams. But the issues of solo's and teams are separate to the problems existing in CW.

You can't seriously believe that if everyone was in a team, there would be no roflstomping ??

Nope, I know there'd still be stomps. When I drop with my guys we're very good. Against many teams we win or make it tight as hell. But there are units that WILL roll us; KCOM, NS, -MS- top tier groups, top tier groupings of 228, etc. The thing is, we still queue back up; we hope to meet them again because even in a loss we learn new things. There are always going to be better players/units. There will never be a matchmaker that lets everyone win. But the real difference maker is how you react to a loss. We take it as a learning experience. Some people take it as a reason to leave the mode. When I started playing CW, I got rolled so much I'm surprised the client let me log in. I'd struggle to break 500 damage over 4 'mechs because I played like I did in solo queue, didn't understand the maps and never talked to anyone. But I kept at it and now hit 1800-2500 dmg every match in 4 'mechs all of which are brawlers. I don't even run the top tier 'mechs, I run either 2x Black Knight, 1 Zeus and 1 Panther or 2x Zeus, 1 Black Knight and 1 Urbie. The difference is I watched where others set up, learned the maps and started talking to everyone I played with about strategies and stuff. It's not that hard to get better; you just gotta know your own playing style and learn enough about the maps/modes to maximize your potential.

[PerfectDuck]

oldradagast, on 08 January 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

If farming PUG's isn't fun, and yet is obviously a huge part of why most people don't consider CW fun, why are the hard-core CW players opposed to fixing this problem? Oh, yeah - because it would take away their free wins.

The people wanting easy wins are the entitled pug players who haven't even put in the effort to work with their team and coordinate with fellow peers. They think they can just frolic about on the battlefield and nothing bad should ever happen to them.

We acknowledge that there's a problem but differ in how to come about a solution. We don't want a large portion of the population to have a 'kiddie pool' where they are protected from teamwork (which isn't OP, it's a core component of the game) and enabled/encourage to splash about and do their solopug awfulness instead of ever getting better. Instead of seeing seal-clubbing happen, we want to see pugs get better, and a major problem with a lot of them is their anti-team attitude that's holding them back. Official endorsement that says teamwork is optional hurts CW in my opinion. I'm offended you think we actually want seal-clubbing to happen. To actually want unfairness is literally the polar opposite of what it means to be competitive.

[Bonger Bob]

PerfectDuck, on 08 January 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

The people wanting easy wins are the entitled pug players who haven't even put in the effort to work with their team and coordinate with fellow peers. They think they can just frolic about on the battlefield and nothing bad should ever happen to them.

We acknowledge that there's a problem but differ in how to come about a solution. We don't want a large portion of the population to have a 'kiddie pool' where they are protected from teamwork (which isn't OP, it's a core component of the game) and enabled/encourage to splash about and do their solopug awfulness instead of ever getting better. Instead of seeing seal-clubbing happen, we want to see pugs get better, and a major problem with a lot of them is their anti-team attitude that's holding them back. Official endorsement that says teamwork is optional hurts CW in my opinion. I'm offended you think we actually want seal-clubbing to happen. To actually want unfairness is literally the polar opposite of what it means to be competitive.

no problem with this except the attitude that all pugs want protection from team work and only want to flail about on the battlefield. If team work was more readily part of the game client, i'm sure more would adopt it. While it exist almost entirely separate from the client, CW is open to pugs, and there is no match maker in CW, there will be no ( consistent ) competition.

the 'kiddie pool" attitude is damaging and incorrect. if you have a desire for competitive play, and no more roflstomp, then having a match maker and separate ques like exist in quick play would bring about the preferred play you attest to desire. Nothing short of that will end the seal clubbing, and the only argument constantly put forward is the alleged desire to " teach people to be better " or " the wait times will be too long ".

If the pugs don't want to be taught, and end up in the bottom of a tiered ranking system so you never get paired against them, where is the problem ??? apart from your loss of an easy win to farm C-bills. Who givesaflyingfuk if they suck and don't want to team play or "learn" from you.

Edited by Bonger Bob, 08 January 2016 - 08:46 PM.

[ccrider]

Bonger Bob, on 08 January 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

no problem with this except the attitude that all pugs want protection from team work and only want to flail about on the battlefield. If team work was more readily part of the game client, i'm sure more would adopt it. While it exist almost entirely separate from the client, CW is open to pugs, and there is no match maker in CW, there will be no ( consistent ) competition.

the 'kiddie pool" attitude is damaging and incorrect. if you have a desire for competitive play, and no more roflstomp, then having a match maker and separate ques like exist in quick play would bring about the preferred play you attest to desire. Nothing short of that will end the seal clubbing, and the only argument constantly put forward is the alleged desire to " teach people to be better " or " the wait times will be too long ".

If the pugs don't want to be taught, and end up in the bottom of a tiered ranking system so you never get paired against them, where is the problem ??? apart from your loss of an easy win to farm C-bills. Who givesaflyingfuk if they suck and don't want to team play or "learn" from you.

Dude, I seriously don't get you. This attitude that no pugs need help contradicts the statement big units are facerolling pugs. There is nothing that can be programmed into the client to make players better. The only way to get better is to face live opposition. As far as segragating the queues go, that already exists; solo queue is for Solis. I can't drop with 11 guys from my unit into solo queue and never ask that the mode be changed so I can. So why should the team/unit mode be changed into something else for people who don't like team modes?

[PerfectDuck]

Bonger Bob, on 08 January 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

You can't seriously believe that if everyone was in a team, there would be no roflstomping ??

It would be nice if both winner and loser were both given equal tools to succeed, including pre-planning, teamwork, communication, anything necessary to facilitate their struggle. If a team got roflstomped, it wasn't for any reason besides that they are worse and need to work on their methods to get better. Only when it's like this can it really be a competitive environment.

I absolutely back your interests of putting more team-focused abilities into the client. It gives the losers fewer excuses not to use what's at their disposal, and when the loser has fewer excuses, the winner is better validated as deserving the win, roflstomp or not.


Edit: Since I've only been strutting about and not actually offering any alternative solutions, I'll bring one up. One option I've always advocated, although it's a bandaid to the problem at best, is to allow a surrender option. If enough votes of any team total up to some number I can't decide on, it simply ends the game and gives the other side a win. It would empower a defeated team with the ability to end the game early and prevent a sealclubbing from taking place. It would still be a shame that they don't attempt a counter-attack with their last remaining mechs but if they feel it would be a waste and that the match has already been decided, I would happily give losing teams this option. Perhaps limit this ability to the last 15 out of 30 minutes of game to prevent the surrender option being abused to opt out of a match. If such feature existed, I would be curious to see how often it gets used as opposed to a clear loser 'riding it out' anyway.

Edited by PerfectDuck, 08 January 2016 - 09:13 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

1. Its fun for you but I do not find it fun. I do not find the game styles the maps etc force to be very entertaining.

[Bonger Bob]

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

Dude, I seriously don't get you. This attitude that no pugs need help contradicts the statement big units are facerolling pugs. There is nothing that can be programmed into the client to make players better. The only way to get better is to face live opposition. As far as segragating the queues go, that already exists; solo queue is for Solis. I can't drop with 11 guys from my unit into solo queue and never ask that the mode be changed so I can. So why should the team/unit mode be changed into something else for people who don't like team modes?

Ive never said no pugs need help, far from it, many of them need help beyond what any player can do, ill go so far as to say the only help some of them would be able to make use of is Alt + F4.

as far as segregation goes, fair point, but i would welcome at least a match maker into CW yet everyone seems to detest that idea on the basis of it being CW.

and as far as "team/group mode" aka your reference for CW, i would extend that to the quick play. contrary to what you might think, there is actually team play in quick play, it's just not as heavy / frequent. That could do with improving further but thats a different topic of convo.

Id appreciate if people stopped just lumping anyone who is not tagged / plays in quick play as a player who doesn't aspire to and play in a team manner. This couldn't be further from the truth. Both quick play AND the players in it, do actually function as a team, just not every round, all day with every member on their side. But to assume that EVERY player in quick play is in it for themselves is crazy.

all this "hard mode" garbage ignores one crucial fact : CW is open to all and is currently over half of the game.

Edited by Bonger Bob, 08 January 2016 - 09:15 PM.

[ccrider]

Bonger Bob, on 08 January 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

Ive never said no pugs need help, far from it, many of them need help beyond what any player can do, ill go so far as to say the only help some of them would be able to make use of is Alt + F4.

as far as segregation goes, fair point, but i would welcome at least a match maker into CW yet everyone seems to detest that idea on the basis of it being CW.

and as far as "team/group mode" aka your reference for CW, i would extend that to the quick play. contrary to what you might think, there is actually team play in quick play, it's just not as heavy / frequent. That could do with improving further but thats a different topic of convo.

Id appreciate if people stopped just lumping anyone who is not tagged / plays in quick play as a player who doesn't aspire to and play in a team manner. This couldn't be further from the truth. Both quick play AND the players in it, do actually function as a team, just not every round, all day with every member on their side. But to assume that EVERY player in quick play is in it for themselves is crazy.

all this "hard mode" garbage ignores one crucial fact : CW is open to all and is currently over half of the game.

And here's the point in the conversation where we find common ground; I agree that a unit tag doesn't mean "team player" and no tag means "solo, lonewolf rambo." There are a veritable ton of unit-less players who are great at cooperating and playing as a team. Many of them will jump into our TS (which we invite everyone we drop with to do) or listen to VOIP instructions from our drop caller, or, as a last resort, read text instructions for where to set up. The only issue with text chat is it's impossible for me to type in target calls while shooting, but I will use it to make sure people at least move or set up in the right spots. A quick example: We dropped 7 guys on Sulpherous against a Jade Falcon team Thursday. We had 5 PUGs on our team. 1 had TS installed and joined us in there, 3 listened to VOIP and the last I was able to walk into position using text. He was trying to set up in front of the gates in a trial Atlas and I told him he'd get better mileage out of his 'mech by setting up with us and forming a firing line rather than getting overrun at the gate. We played defense around Omega, only charged the gates when we had numerical superiority and quickly reformed each wave. And all 5 PUGs followed our lead without exception. They didn't need tags; they played as a team within our team. I think we both agree that these types aren't who are getting seal clubbed, it's the guys who absolutely refuse to play as a team and are only interested in solo play but for some reason drop in CW. Our 7 + 5 PUGs won pretty convincingly (48-23 on defense) but if you switched those 5 with 5 guys who wouldn't play as a team and we get wrecked. No one here is arguing that not being in a unit makes you garbage, we're saying that playing the team/unit mode in a solo, uncooperative way gets you wrecked and no programming fixes that.

Edited by ccrider, 08 January 2016 - 09:49 PM.

[Bonger Bob]

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

And here's the point in the conversation where we find common ground; I agree that a unit tag doesn't mean "team player" and
.......................................

No one here is arguing that not being in a unit makes you garbage, we're saying that playing the team/unit mode in a solo, uncooperative way gets you wrecked and no programming fixes that.

100% agreed, so the sooner PGI incorporates real team management tools into the client, separation / lockout of pug's in CW, and a matchmaker of any level for CW, the better.

[diablo595]

MrJeffers, on 08 January 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Yes - exactly - some other goal. And people, including yourself in the previous statement, keep saying it can only be farming pugs without even considering there even are other reasons. Its a joke.

And you know what - units DO organize and match up against each other, in the player run leagues and I assume with the upcoming PGI tournament. Or in private matches. Forcing units against each other in public queues requires rewriting the match makers to add that as a criteria.

there no match maker so and the script for making units face each other is already written so it would take about 5 min to implement

[TLBFestus]

EgoSlayer, on 08 January 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Sounds simple, but then creates the problem you think it would avoid since now people can see who they are or would be queued against they can deliberately avoid them. It enables the behavior to avoid matches that people think would be too hard, and makes it easier to do so. Don't even have to switch factions.

Something that can't be done now since you can't see who you are going against in the queue, and if you don't think there are a lot more people who would actively drop out of a queue if they thought the match was going to be too tough compared to units that make alliances or switch factions to avoid each other, you are seriously naive.

I think what you were trying to say was "Casual Players would avoid 12 mans like the plague and only seek to play against other casuals".

We can't have that can we? The 12 mans, in their limited number would only be able to compete against each other and not feed on the under hive. They would then find out how small their population is and scream for access to their "pug kibble".

Now, I said this is such a way as to indicate that that is the 12 mans preferred target. Even if the truth is that PUGs are NOT the preferred meal of 12 mans, that they are NEEDED. Thing is the 12 mans need the PUGs, the PUGs don't need the 12 mans. They'd be happy, happy, happy, playing each other in CW.

It's the current DESIGN and the POPULATION of the game that makes CW a waste of time.

12 mans hate playing PUGs
12 mans love destroying PUGs
PUGs as a rule don't want to get stomped, they want to feel as if they had a "good" game. They are 80% of the MWO population. Only the 3rd line means anything here.

Unfortunately the existing population is too small the make the 20% of competitive players that remain a viable community in and of itself. If the 20% doesn't want to make accommodations to make the other 80% feel "welcome" or "in the game" then it's up to the Dev's to fix that.

If the Dev's do nothing, the 80% will vote with their wallets and their game modes and leave CW a grave yard.

you guys better hope that PGI pulls a freakin' rabbit out of it's hat with phase 3. As for myself, I'm of the opinion that if PUGs don't like it, it's yet another waste of time.

Edited by TLBFestus, 08 January 2016 - 10:34 PM.

[diablo595]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

"Seal clubbing" happens when the following happens:

1) New players don't know any better. Self explanatory (the players are ill-equipped to deal with the mode period).

2) Players with a "solo mentality" don't work.The solo queue trains players to fend for themselves (as in - you can't trust your teammates). What tends to happen is that those players when told what to do (whether by VOIP or in chat), they'd ignore it. There's not much you can do to fix that other than being willing to learn to play the game.

3) Deck synergy is non-existent. Say you have a NARC build (or TAG, or whatever).. and you're trying to help out the team... particularly the LRM boats (I do want to say that I don't advocate for LRMs for various reasons - I'm just citing an example). If your teammates don't bring something to make use of it, well.. you're not going to be as useful to the team. Usually there is some level of planning in dropdeck synergy (whether it is all Lights or all brawlers) and when your team isn't even on the same page for builds - you'll have people in a bad position and they will be less effective overall.


It has lot less to do with skill (although it is a factor).. it's a lot more to do with learning CW and all the things necessary to be successful.

That's why teams truly win or lose in CW. It's a lot about how they play the mode.

seal clubbing happens when

1) you have no guides and a call to arms button flashing on your screen

2) noobs only reliable way to earn mech bays is to pug cw

3) units getting the highest rewards for seal clubbing and being able to hide from each other

4) no proper chat or looking for group interface

before you say this game has chat and lfg IT DOES NOT have proper and usable versions, how can a game be this old and I can't change my font size, move my chat window, scroll to see what was said in chat, has no global chat, no way to view faction chat when not in faction mode .

even the most crappy mmo's have better chat features than this. for god's take a day and make a function chat screen.

and if you gave a million dollars I couldn't tell how lfg works, never used one that didn't what type of games you could que up for no wonder no one uses it

Edited by diablo595, 08 January 2016 - 10:57 PM.

[Pjwned]

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

1. CW is fun. The maps may need some tweaking and we could use some different modes to encourage alternative gameplay but the essence of dropping with friends and getting to use 4 'mechs to shoot other 'mechs is FUN.

No it isn't, the bad maps and the bad modes are why it's not fun. It's not a worthwhile mode even when rewards are buffed to hell and back because it's a boring, drawn out, horribly designed piece of crap.

Quote

3. PUGging in CW isn't that bad. I PUG probably a 3rd of my CW matches and while sometimes the matchup is horrible and we get crushed, most matches, (3/4s) are competitive. Even the stomps are worthwhile as I can see what strategies/builds the other team used and take it back to the guys in my unit to either find a way to counter it or use it ourselves. Every game is a learning experience that will make you a better player if you treat it as such and don't simply focus on the "unfairness" of the matchup.

Only remotely true if you ignore the atrociously bad queue times, unless there happens to be an event going in which case the quality of matches is even worse than usual.

[Deathlike]

Bonger Bob, on 08 January 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

The moment PGI add a "join CW faction voip" button anywhere in the client interface, ill happily click it. And a microphone used on voip to take the place of typing advice does not effect your ability to give it. Nor does not having a mic alter anyones ability to receive it. So we then come to the problem of the players not being in "your voip channel". Thats a PGI game design ( or lack of ) problem, and has nothing to do with learning skills. I understand your desire to use TS, it's better voip than the game provides, don't confuse the issues.

I've actually suggested that before. All PGI would need to do is add an interface to the UI, and probably set some ground rules for the faction hubs (mostly to allocate a designated PGI channel and probably have mods around the clock the handle this and other such requirements).

VOIP is still TS, and virtually every hub is running it... so it's a matter of PGI actually DOING IT is ultimately the issue at hand.

Quote

if its the end game, hard mode, only for teams, MAKE IT SO. While it remains fact that you can join as a solo un-team tagged player, its going to have pugs, and as the teams have said they need the pug's, but they don't seem to want the roflstomp to end by even remotely allowing a match maker to be put in place. Id welcome it being closed to pugs, or setup a separate "training mode" that would allow pugs to drop vs pugs, but again the roflstomp will end so people cry out in horror.

make your minds up people, want competitive rounds ?? want people to join teams ??? accept that changes to segregate the pugs from CW need to happen. Don't like that idea, then accept that driving players away from a game mode and over half of the game will damage it long term and we eventually end up back to needing a match maker and rankings in CW. The issue at hand with CW is the roflstomp lack of matching, not the solo player.

TBH, most of it IS the solo player being the problem. It's like playing "Nightmare" mode for Doom (where monsters respawn indefinitely)... you don't play it until you have a significant grasp of the game and its maps. The "easier modes" to train with is solo queue or group queue... and that's how you need to form your understanding of the game in a form of "progression".

Diluting the quality of the mode with segregated groups for CW (via a MM of some sort) only serves to make CW a lot LESS accessible for everyone. What you and others are asking for are the equivalent of "cheat codes" for "Nightmare" mode to be "playable" for the new player... which is totally asinine.

A significant part of this is a poor NPE (New Player Experience) for the game... where Mechbays are gated through CW (getting Mechbays via other mechs requires a "generous event", and not reliable if you don't play this game often enough - of course you'll likely have to spend money to work around the mechbay issue).

So, there's a lot of other things that need addressing, but shortcuts to learning how to get better at the game should not be "getting to the endgame content immediately".

diablo595, on 08 January 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

seal clubbing happens when

1) you have no guides and a call to arms button flashing on your screen

2) noobs only reliable way to earn mech bays is to pug cw

3) units getting the highest rewards for seal clubbing and being able to hide from each other

4) no proper chat or looking for group interface

before you say this game has chat and lfg IT DOES NOT have proper and usable versions, how can a game be this old and I can't change my font size, move my chat window, scroll to see what was said in chat, has no global chat, no way to view faction chat when not in faction mode .

even the most crappy mmo's have better chat features than this. for god's take a day and make a function chat screen.

and if you gave a million dollars I couldn't tell how lfg works, never used one that didn't what type of games you could que up for no wonder no one uses it

TBH, the chat/social interface of this game is so rudimentary/basic that it makes AOL Instant Messenger (and older forms of a chat interface, including IRC) seem like forms of Lostech. You know how crappy the interface is when you can message people and crash you and the targeted client through massive chat (or spam). One wonders if PGI will ever decide to ever address this.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 January 2016 - 11:33 PM.

[Johnny Z]

XX Sulla XX, on 08 January 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

1. Its fun for you but I do not find it fun. I do not find the game styles the maps etc force to be very entertaining.

The rest of the regular queue and group queue maps will be added to the faction play some time.

The current faction maps make nascar impossible and offer a different dynamic to the matches. Which is a good thing.

Its safe to expect entirely new maps of all sorts to be added also.

[jss78]

PerfectDuck, on 08 January 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

The people wanting easy wins are the entitled pug players who haven't even put in the effort to work with their team and coordinate with fellow peers. They think they can just frolic about on the battlefield and nothing bad should ever happen to them.

We acknowledge that there's a problem but differ in how to come about a solution. We don't want a large portion of the population to have a 'kiddie pool' where they are protected from teamwork (which isn't OP, it's a core component of the game) and enabled/encourage to splash about and do their solopug awfulness instead of ever getting better. Instead of seeing seal-clubbing happen, we want to see pugs get better, and a major problem with a lot of them is their anti-team attitude that's holding them back. Official endorsement that says teamwork is optional hurts CW in my opinion. I'm offended you think we actually want seal-clubbing to happen. To actually want unfairness is literally the polar opposite of what it means to be competitive.

The thing is, I don't really see you proposing a solution.

To me the facts at hand look like only a very small portion of MWO playerbase is interested in playing in organized units. I honestly don't believe there's anything you can do to change this basic mentality. It's their spare time to spend as they please, and it looks like casual solo play is where it's at for most, and they're under no obligation whatsoever to do otherwise.

The question then is whether CW can be viable with the organized unit population alone. If yes, close it to pugs -- this is all fair enough. But if pugs are needed as filler, then what follows it that it must be made a good experience for pugs, however much you personally prefer unit play. To me it's unavoidable that CW needs some type of match making to put those pugs in somewhat even matchups.

Having said that, I don't think the present CW is as horrible as some people say, and I disagree with the assertion that "90 %" (earlier in this thread) of CW games as pugs is getting stomped by big units. I play as a pug and first, quite many if not most of the teams I face are pugs too, and second, many of the organized teams aren't that good anyway.

I agree with a lot of the very constructive OP -- I do believe there are units who're sincerely looking for good fights. These guys are called sportsmen and we all know they exist. But I'm 100% convinced there are also other people who're looking to farm pugs and to stroke their massive e-peens as opposed to their very tiny real ones. These guys are called douches and we all know they exist too.

Edited by jss78, 09 January 2016 - 12:19 AM.

[Bonger Bob]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

TBH, most of it IS the solo player being the problem. It's like playing "Nightmare" mode for Doom (where monsters respawn indefinitely)... you don't play it until you have a significant grasp of the game and its maps. The "easier modes" to train with is solo queue or group queue... and that's how you need to form your understanding of the game in a form of "progression".

Diluting the quality of the mode with segregated groups for CW (via a MM of some sort) only serves to make CW a lot LESS accessible for everyone. What you and others are asking for are the equivalent of "cheat codes" for "Nightmare" mode to be "playable" for the new player... which is totally asinine.

A significant part of this is a poor NPE (New Player Experience) for the game... where Mechbays are gated through CW (getting Mechbays via other mechs requires a "generous event", and not reliable if you don't play this game often enough - of course you'll likely have to spend money to work around the mechbay issue).

So, there's a lot of other things that need addressing, but shortcuts to learning how to get better at the game should not be "getting to the endgame content immediately".

im in no way suggesting a shortcut, im asking for a clear cut line to be drawn, one way or the other, be that locked CW so only teams can engage in it ( and id hope better team tools in game to go with it ) or accept the fact that solo's can engage in it just like quick play.

we can delude ourselves all we like on CW being "hard mode", but lets face it the only hard mode present is for pugs that get hammered by a full tagged team. Not that joining a team will instantly make you leet, but it does take the game to another level.

and ive suggested before, if you open CW to a pug only que, keep the rewards the same as they are currently, horrible grind that it is. Pug / solo que gets no LP either. Give the groups only que a C-Bill bonus or a bonus of some sort to make the distinction between voip tagged teams and pugs real. Also make it that the pug / solo que has no bearing on the galactic control map ( or what ever PGI replaces it with ).

This way the voip tagged all the same team people can have their hard mode, a real hard mode that effects the galactic map and use their 3rd party voip to their hearts content.

Now the pugs / solo's don't get boned out of 50%+ of the already very limited content. your not forced to play against them in the training area, and everyone gets a challenging game.

only problems ive seen raised over this idea is that the teams players don't get to seal club.

[Johnny Z]

Bonger Bob, on 09 January 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

im in no way suggesting a shortcut, im asking for a clear cut line to be drawn, one way or the other, be that locked CW so only teams can engage in it ( and id hope better team tools in game to go with it ) or accept the fact that solo's can engage in it just like quick play.

we can delude ourselves all we like on CW being "hard mode", but lets face it the only hard mode present is for pugs that get hammered by a full tagged team. Not that joining a team will instantly make you leet, but it does take the game to another level.

and ive suggested before, if you open CW to a pug only que, keep the rewards the same as they are currently, horrible grind that it is. Pug / solo que gets no LP either. Give the groups only que a C-Bill bonus or a bonus of some sort to make the distinction between voip tagged teams and pugs real. Also make it that the pug / solo que has no bearing on the galactic control map ( or what ever PGI replaces it with ).

This way the voip tagged all the same team people can have their hard mode, a real hard mode that effects the galactic map and use their 3rd party voip to their hearts content.

Now the pugs / solo's don't get boned out of 50%+ of the already very limited content. your not forced to play against them in the training area, and everyone gets a challenging game.

only problems ive seen raised over this idea is that the teams players don't get to seal club.

I am glad I didn't miss this.

This above reply is the exact same argument that made the group queue. Exactly, word for word.

Its being made by a premade group player I am guessing.

Then the premade groups will turn around and say it was the public players that asked for it. Exactly like what has been said about the group queue to this day.

I don't see public players complaining about open queues on the faction map. I don't see them complaining about Planetside lack of a match maker. I do see an agenda though.

I don't need to add that if there was a group queue made for the faction map it would have all the same problems and complaints the regular group queue has now...... But I will any way.

I will also add that as a regular player free dropping on the galaxy map I have no problems with getting huge scores except in very rare matches where half the team yolo's into the other team without even trying to win. (These are synch dropping farming matches.)

I play against one premade team and get 7 victories I play against another premade team and get 3 victories and it took a 18 v 6 match to do it.(That's half my team playing for the other team. Playing against a well known pack of cheats premade team. This was the two matches I played yesterday on the galaxy map.)

(Yes I know how sync is spelled but synch is a gangster term and is the correct usage.)

Edited by Johnny Z, 09 January 2016 - 01:03 AM.