116 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Bonger Bob, on 09 January 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

im in no way suggesting a shortcut, im asking for a clear cut line to be drawn, one way or the other, be that locked CW so only teams can engage in it ( and id hope better team tools in game to go with it ) or accept the fact that solo's can engage in it just like quick play.

I can draw the lines.. the problem is many players are unwilling to accept them. I'll lay them out in "tiers" or specifically what you're "supposed to learn" in MWO.


Solo Queue:
Movement (aka not standing still or stay in the open)
Shooting (weapons)
Mechlab (building)
Torso Twisting
Double Teaming (shooting the same target the teammate next to them are shooting)

Notice that there are too many new players that don't even get that far, and SHOULD NOT EVER BE IN CW UNTIL THEY MASTER SAID BASICS.


Group Queue:
Movement->Tactical (includes NASCAR, knowing when to push)
Movement->Positioning (firing lines, not be directly behind someone, etc.)
Shooting->Focus Fire (shooting the same target vs shooting multiple different targets)
Shooting->Targeting (reading the paperdoll)
Mechlab->Actual Synergistic builds (for yourself - aka no STD engine Lights for instance)
Torso Twisting->Defensive Shielding (whether you sword and board or do symmetric builds)
Double Teaming->When To Engage (aka not chasing the squirrel and "strength in numbers")
Working Together (both in small teams or as part of a bigger team - arguably one of the more difficult things unless you're stacked with a high level group).


Notice that a lot of these things, I don't see them from new players, but a lot of the players that are probably the bulk of the constituency that have complained.


CW:
Movement->Waves (primarily in offense)
Movement->Tactics (more map specific stuff - learning all the nuances)
Shooting->Target Prioritizing (focusing on heavies/assaults like Atlases and Dires first and foremost)
Mechlab->Team Dropdeck (focus is more on making sure knows their role/purpose on each wave - having built a dropdeck for whatever is needed by the team)
Double Teaming->Being Efficient (it's a combination of shooting and positioning - you need to be in the right place at the right time)
Working Together->Actually Listening To Orders (by the drop commander or whoever decides to take lead)

I will say that many organized units/players usually get this far, but not in its entirety. The "lesser organized" players/units however don't. There's very little delineation beyond this (other more competitive units will probably do a bit more), but suffice it to say... this is the level REQUIRED for CW. Simply put... too many players that complain don't get this far, and are lacking in generally multiple areas... which ultimately prevents consistent success in CW.

I might have missed a few, but this is literally the core differences between the nuances of the various player types that are in this game. It's not perfect, but the level people NEED in CW are sorely lacking because they SKIP all the necessary foundations/understanding to actually succeed.

[EgoSlayer]

TLBFestus, on 08 January 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

I think what you were trying to say was "Casual Players would avoid 12 mans like the plague and only seek to play against other casuals".

We can't have that can we? The 12 mans, in their limited number would only be able to compete against each other and not feed on the under hive. They would then find out how small their population is and scream for access to their "pug kibble".

Now, I said this is such a way as to indicate that that is the 12 mans preferred target. Even if the truth is that PUGs are NOT the preferred meal of 12 mans, that they are NEEDED. Thing is the 12 mans need the PUGs, the PUGs don't need the 12 mans. They'd be happy, happy, happy, playing each other in CW.

No I didn't say anything like that and if fact in my followup response stated clearly what I meant since it wasn't clear enough already;

EgoSlayer, on 08 January 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

No it doesn't run contrary to what you have been told, what you would be left with IS comp teams playing comp teams.

What's going to happen is the many that opt out are going to be the solos or small groups that bail because the other team has a 4 man or more on the the other side. Or if its a particular unit tag. There are far more individuals that are going to do that then there are units doing it.

There are plenty of vocal mad guys on the forum that think every match is too hard and that they should win every time. Who knows what percentage of the non-posting player base they represent. A measurable percentage of people want easy mode. Even if it's only 10% think how long it would take to get a match if 1 out of every 10 people in the queue are going to drop out when they see something they don't like?

The number one thing that leads to pug farming/spawn camping is a lack of teamwork on the losing team. Unless PGI can magically make people work as teams it's going to continue to happen. And it's not just the 12 man boogeyman, rainbow pugs can, have, and do spawn camp when they are working well together compared to their opponents. There isn't some magic match maker that is going to figure out which set of people is going to have the most effective teamwork.

Are there steps that can be done to make it better? Sure thing - but IMO the focus needs to be on developing player skills and teamwork more than anything else. Leroy Jenkins doesn't work in CW. There should be some skill/experience gates on CW, such as at least one owned mech, xx number of matches played, or something that makes CW an end game goal not just a casual 'hey what's this game mode about' drop in experience. The NPE needs to be expanded, cover the differences between quick play and faction play, and maybe with some basic AI include some CW examples of moving in a group and focus fire. These type of things will be infinity more valuable than the segregate the queues suggestions.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 10 January 2016 - 10:28 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

PerfectDuck, on 08 January 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

The point of this thread is to clear up misconceptions. People who disagree with #2, I can understand why, because it might be mentally taxing to try to view the world from others' viewpoints and to try to grasp that there are people who think and act differently from others. It's a fallacy to assume just because you do something or think a certain way, that everybody else will follow that same logic.

Chances are if you're hung up on #2, the concept of competitive play is foreign to you and that you yourself are not really a competitive player. That's fine but these baseless accusations are getting really offensive. I'm going to try to spell it out here.

Here goes. Take it in a few times and re-read the following so that it might digest: There are people out there who aren't cowardly and hope for an easy 'victory' to feel good about themselves. Easy, guaranteed wins don't even make them feel good about themselves, it feels like time wasted. These people don't fear losing, in fact they know that playing against a superior opponent is one of the best ways to learn and improve. They don't want a handicap. These people enjoy a challenge. Imbalance and RNG elements that might allow an inferior player to win (like blue shells or critical hits) are things that they wish didn't exist. You will find a good number of these people in the top-level units and casual units alike and they are there not because they like to win but because they stuck through in spite of the losses to get where they are today. Their favorite thing to do is to see themselves and their comrades improve and the most interesting thing to them is seeing how far they can go and how good they can get. These are called competitive people.

I'll second this. Over christmas, Void Annihilation(a friend of mine) and I ran some pug premades on the HS server a few nights. We didn't min/max or have any siily cack-we just got 12 randoms together (a few solos I had pointed towards the TS server the day before) and had one/two guys calling targets. We won some and lost some, we even lost to pugs..who incidentally were very mouthy and full of bad attitude towards us.
Not once did we dropship farm or troll anyone. We went where the fights were that's all, we had loads of fun. 11 games one day with 11 close matches.

All units/premades want to farm pugs? I find that VERY offensive.It's like me saying ALL solos are anti social/anti teamwork idiots. something we all know NOT to be true. So WHY the awful attitude rhetoric from the pro solos?
When will this anti premade rhetoric stop and sense reign?

[MechWarrior3671771]

kamiko kross, on 09 January 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

All units/premades want to farm pugs? I find that VERY offensive. When will this anti premade rhetoric stop and sense reign?

Where are you getting ALL from? I certainly haven't said that. Who is?

[MrJeffers]

diablo595, on 08 January 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

there no match maker so and the script for making units face each other is already written so it would take about 5 min to implement

So I can tell you don't write code...

[Triordinant]

This thread is in the wrong forum.

[ccrider]

Triordinant, on 09 January 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

This thread is in the wrong forum.

I see more anti-CW threads in general than in the cw forum so I popped it here.

[Fleeb the Mad]

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

7. Teamspeak isn't a necessity but goddam does it make everything easier/more fun. There is a HUGE advantage to using TS; between matches you can work out a strategy, talk some **** with your friends and after a match you can talk about what went wrong or right in your last drop. VOIP is great for coordinating with the random PUGs that fill out a drop of less than 12 but it isn't better than TS. My unit and most every unit I've dropped with when PUGging, will invite you into TS to join them. If you have TS, take them up on the offer. You'll find that even a team that whupped your *** a few days before is fun as hell to drop with when you get to know them.

Let's talk about teamspeak for a minute. It takes a certain kind of person to want to go to a public teamspeak for the competitive advantage it offers. I don't expect people who spend the majority of their time in units and dropping in groups to really understand that, because that sort of thing is the norm.

For example, if the group queue stats are anything to go by, large groups make up a tiny fraction of the actual players. As someone who frequents small groups, I'll say that I don't actually like joining faction or unit TS servers, because it interferes with my ability to actually talk with the people I logged in to play with. It's generally impolite to fill a stranger's airspace with banter, and it's irritating to listen to idle chatter from a bunch of people you don't know.

Seems most people are polite or at least shy, so in my experience unit or faction TS tends to be all business. It does confer a greatly improved ability to coordinate. It does kill a lot of the fun factor, though.

So what happens if you find your gaming time more enjoyable when BSing with a couple friends or playing loud death metal? What happens if you're not in a unit of players from the same country and don't actually speak the same language as the rest of your drop group?

Do you make CW appeal to these people, or not?

Note that I've said nothing about the willingness or ability of people to attempt to play with the team. You don't need VOIP to follow the group and at least try to be helpful, but it's definitely a competitive disadvantage. So is blaring Ride of the Valkyries while running through an opening gate into the enemy team's firing line.

Think about it for a bit because it matters more than you might realize.

Casual players are, quite honestly, fickle. I see a lot of competitive folks looking down at that sort of player because they're not willing to put in a lot of effort to reach a higher bar. Truth is, it's a terrible mistake to expect a casual player to put up with a quota of suffering in order to 'up their game' or to invest a huge amount of ego in their performance. Game time is recreation time. Activities that are not fun are shoved to the side. Your casual folks simply don't want to take the game so seriously, which is why 'git gud' arguments fall flat.

If your answer is that faction warfare isn't for people who aren't willing to take it more seriously, then you really should be advocating that solo drop, or dropping without a unit be removed as options from CW. Yes, really.

It's quite honestly a bad decision to allow players to get thrown into a shark tank, even if there's a warning. It might hurt the population, but a serious mode CW should only allow people who have a unit because it requires expending a certain amount of effort which will do a lot to inform them of what to expect, as opposed to clicking the button and diving in. The people who go through that effort are the ones who might be willing to go through all the other steps to be competitive.

Letting disorganized players get mauled like CW currently does creates a lot of bad sentiment that pushes people away and creates bad press that deters new players. They may never give it another shot, even after they gain the experience needed to be competitive. Advocating darwinism there is flawed. MWO is not a captive audience, and CW is even less so. There's no prize at the top of the pyramid for people who suffer through sequential beat downs.

On the other hand, if you want a populous CW with mass appeal then the idea of hard mode needs to go away. Casual folks who represent the majority of the players would need to actually be able to have good games while sacrificing the competitive edge that being in a unit, playing in a formed group or using TS offers.

I think these two things are mutually exclusive, because you cannot have a 'hard mode' that's friendly to people who aren't competitive enough to put up with all the prerequisites.

[Deathlike]

Fleeb the Mad, on 09 January 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

Let's talk about teamspeak for a minute. It takes a certain kind of person to want to go to a public teamspeak for the competitive advantage it offers. I don't expect people who spend the majority of their time in units and dropping in groups to really understand that, because that sort of thing is the norm.

For example, if the group queue stats are anything to go by, large groups make up a tiny fraction of the actual players. As someone who frequents small groups, I'll say that I don't actually like joining faction or unit TS servers, because it interferes with my ability to actually talk with the people I logged in to play with. It's generally impolite to fill a stranger's airspace with banter, and it's irritating to listen to idle chatter from a bunch of people you don't know.

Seems most people are polite or at least shy, so in my experience unit or faction TS tends to be all business. It does confer a greatly improved ability to coordinate. It does kill a lot of the fun factor, though.

So what happens if you find your gaming time more enjoyable when BSing with a couple friends or playing loud death metal? What happens if you're not in a unit of players from the same country and don't actually speak the same language as the rest of your drop group?

Do you make CW appeal to these people, or not?

Note that I've said nothing about the willingness or ability of people to attempt to play with the team. You don't need VOIP to follow the group and at least try to be helpful, but it's definitely a competitive disadvantage. So is blaring Ride of the Valkyries while running through an opening gate into the enemy team's firing line.

Think about it for a bit because it matters more than you might realize.

Casual players are, quite honestly, fickle. I see a lot of competitive folks looking down at that sort of player because they're not willing to put in a lot of effort to reach a higher bar. Truth is, it's a terrible mistake to expect a casual player to put up with a quota of suffering in order to 'up their game' or to invest a huge amount of ego in their performance. Game time is recreation time. Activities that are not fun are shoved to the side. Your casual folks simply don't want to take the game so seriously, which is why 'git gud' arguments fall flat.

If your answer is that faction warfare isn't for people who aren't willing to take it more seriously, then you really should be advocating that solo drop, or dropping without a unit be removed as options from CW. Yes, really.

It's quite honestly a bad decision to allow players to get thrown into a shark tank, even if there's a warning. It might hurt the population, but a serious mode CW should only allow people who have a unit because it requires expending a certain amount of effort which will do a lot to inform them of what to expect, as opposed to clicking the button and diving in. The people who go through that effort are the ones who might be willing to go through all the other steps to be competitive.

Letting disorganized players get mauled like CW currently does creates a lot of bad sentiment that pushes people away and creates bad press that deters new players. They may never give it another shot, even after they gain the experience needed to be competitive. Advocating darwinism there is flawed. MWO is not a captive audience, and CW is even less so. There's no prize at the top of the pyramid for people who suffer through sequential beat downs.

On the other hand, if you want a populous CW with mass appeal then the idea of hard mode needs to go away. Casual folks who represent the majority of the players would need to actually be able to have good games while sacrificing the competitive edge that being in a unit, playing in a formed group or using TS offers.

I think these two things are mutually exclusive, because you cannot have a 'hard mode' that's friendly to people who aren't competitive enough to put up with all the prerequisites.

The problem is that the mode is not really meant for casuals.

If you're not committed to working hard and working to win, complaining about CW as a mode is the last thing that would be justifiable.

That's the problem when you're asking for a "hardcore mode" to be neutered.

[PerfectDuck]

TLBFestus, on 08 January 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

Unfortunately the existing population is too small the make the 20% of competitive players that remain a viable community in and of itself. If the 20% doesn't want to make accommodations to make the other 80% feel "welcome" or "in the game" then it's up to the Dev's to fix that.

New players, old players, first-time users or bittervets, young and old, are all welcomed in FRR Hub, Kurita Teamspeak, Comstar, Strana Mechty, NGNG, and dozens of other communications hubs. Come on in, enter a lobby, be part of a 12-man.

We would LOVE to see more people show up in these. There's a reason the servers are made to accommodate hundreds at a time.

That this so-called 80% is not welcome to join the competitive players is absurd. Do you even TS3 bro?

[cSand]

PerfectDuck, on 08 January 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

Yo, I'm not the OP.

When a crumby team of pugs enters CW mode and fail to deliver even a semblance of a fight, it's us the competitive team who is the victim of having their time wasted in a colossal way. Usually after the first 12 enemies go down, they never even venture outside of their spawn or a footstep away from the O-gens. We're the ones trying to get our game faces on, doing what we can to fight the good fight, coordinating our decks and getting everything set up so that we have absolutely no excuses if we lose. And then these pugs have the audacity to accuse us of trying to get the match over with quickly as if that's such a bad thing.

As for teams avoiding each other in CW? NS is not a part of that problem. We're competitive and looking for good fights. There was a time when we were desperate for any match, easy or hard, when we were doing the 'mechbay tour' as it wasn't easy even getting games to happen at all in time for us to get quick Rank6's but that was brief and it had nothing to do with a desire to sealclub. We're currently in CJF specifically to have access to Steiner and FRR competition since we wanted to honor the Kurita/FRR peace.

We are actually avoiding one unit though...

Spoiler

winner of the general forums

I love this pic

[Jon Gotham]

Fen Tetsudo, on 09 January 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

Where are you getting ALL from? I certainly haven't said that. Who is?

Because that;s pretty much the rhetoric I see on a daily basis. "seal clubbers and tryhards" we normally get called. There are 4-5 people that are quite famous for being anti social/group/teamwork here on the forum with the same tired old rhetoric.
constant pro solo campaigning at the expense of players that group.
I'm so sick of that poor attitude I can't even express it.

[JaxRiot]

PerfectDuck, on 08 January 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

The people wanting easy wins are the entitled pug players who haven't even put in the effort to work with their team and coordinate with fellow peers. They think they can just frolic about on the battlefield and nothing bad should ever happen to them.

We acknowledge that there's a problem but differ in how to come about a solution. We don't want a large portion of the population to have a 'kiddie pool' where they are protected from teamwork (which isn't OP, it's a core component of the game) and enabled/encourage to splash about and do their solopug awfulness instead of ever getting better. Instead of seeing seal-clubbing happen, we want to see pugs get better, and a major problem with a lot of them is their anti-team attitude that's holding them back. Official endorsement that says teamwork is optional hurts CW in my opinion. I'm offended you think we actually want seal-clubbing to happen. To actually want unfairness is literally the polar opposite of what it means to be competitive.

With all due respect, that point of view seems backwards to me.

You state that you dont think that Pugs should not have a kiddie pool (the easy mode Im assuming you mean), but yet the units easily beat the tar out of Pugs and newbies that dont stand a chance against them.

Its the Units that have the easy mode right now because of the new players coming from Steam. Its the Units that are having the Kiddie pool no contest trail mech stomping fun right now.

You say that the newbies and Pugs will only get better if they fight Units, but the Units dont even fight other Units most of the time. The Units are fighting Pugs and newbies in Trial mechs and calling it Competition.

The Units are basically saying that they are beating up on Pugs because its whats best for them and will make them stronger, when in actuality, the Units are just wanting to keep their free wins as long as they can.

They dont want to lose their easy wins Kiddie pool

Edited by JaxRiot, 09 January 2016 - 10:25 PM.

[Deathlike]

JaxRiot, on 09 January 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

With all due respect, that point of view seems backwards to me.

You state that you dont think that Pugs should not have a kiddie pool (the easy mode Im assuming you mean), but yet the units easily beat the tar out of Pugs and newbies that dont stand a chance against them.

Its the Units that have the easy mode right now because of the new players coming from Steam. Its the Units that are having the Kiddie pool no contest trail mech stomping fun right now.

You say that the newbies and Pugs will only get better if they fight Units, but the Units dont even fight other Units most of the time. The Units are fighting Pugs and newbies in Trial mechs and calling it Competition.

The Units are basically saying that they are beating up on Pugs because its whats best for them and will make them stronger, when in actuality, the Units are just wanting to keep their free wins as long as they can.

They dont want to lose their easy wins Kiddie pool

The problem with blaming units is that you assume units have a choice at picking their opponents (it's only the faction that they can ultimately pick). They clearly do not choose who they are dropping against (premade or not)... and neither do the solo players.

You know what choice solo players have? They can actually pick (to a degree) who their teammates are (like ones from a unit). Better yet, THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE IN A UNIT TO DO THIS.

That's the core failure in your argument.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 January 2016 - 11:15 PM.

[PerfectDuck]

JaxRiot, on 09 January 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

With all due respect, that point of view seems backwards to me.

You state that you dont think that Pugs should not have a kiddie pool (the easy mode Im assuming you mean), but yet the units easily beat the tar out of Pugs and newbies that dont stand a chance against them.

Its the Units that have the easy mode right now because of the new players coming from Steam. Its the Units that are having the Kiddie pool no contest trail mech stomping fun right now.

You say that the newbies and Pugs will only get better if they fight Units, but the Units dont even fight other Units most of the time. The Units are fighting Pugs and newbies in Trial mechs and calling it Competition.

The Units are basically saying that they are beating up on Pugs because its whats best for them and will make them stronger, when in actuality, the Units are just wanting to keep their free wins as long as they can.

They dont want to lose their easy wins Kiddie pool

With all due respect the whole point of this thread is to clear up the exact same misconceptions that you're spouting like gospel and it's still flying over your head.

[ccrider]

JaxRiot, on 09 January 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

With all due respect, that point of view seems backwards to me.

You state that you dont think that Pugs should not have a kiddie pool (the easy mode Im assuming you mean), but yet the units easily beat the tar out of Pugs and newbies that dont stand a chance against them.

Its the Units that have the easy mode right now because of the new players coming from Steam. Its the Units that are having the Kiddie pool no contest trail mech stomping fun right now.

You say that the newbies and Pugs will only get better if they fight Units, but the Units dont even fight other Units most of the time. The Units are fighting Pugs and newbies in Trial mechs and calling it Competition.

The Units are basically saying that they are beating up on Pugs because its whats best for them and will make them stronger, when in actuality, the Units are just wanting to keep their free wins as long as they can.

They dont want to lose their easy wins Kiddie pool

If it were true that units WANTED to farm PUGs, you would never see any big merc unit take a contract with Davion or Clan Wolf. Ever. Those two factions have at any given time the absolute highest number of newbies running trial 'mechs because they are the two most popular Battletech factions. Yet time and time again, big, comp units have gone to those factions, knowing that now the "kiddie pool" players are on their team and they will have to face stiffer competition. This argument would be harder to disprove if it weren't so easy to find examples refuting it every day in MW:O. I'm not saying that some players/units don't like farming PUGs; there will always be a bad element in every facet of life, but the insinuation that even half the units are like this is false. Queues in CW are just as invisible as in solo; you find out your opponent when you enter the drop. You can't press the "oops, PUGgle team, abort" button, you play who queued up opposite of you.

[TWIAFU]

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

Dude, I seriously don't get you. This attitude that no pugs need help contradicts the statement big units are facerolling pugs. There is nothing that can be programmed into the client to make players better. The only way to get better is to face live opposition. As far as segragating the queues go, that already exists; solo queue is for Solis. I can't drop with 11 guys from my unit into solo queue and never ask that the mode be changed so I can. So why should the team/unit mode be changed into something else for people who don't like team modes?

Special Snowflake Syndrome.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Deathlike, on 09 January 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

The problem with blaming units is that you assume units have a choice at picking their opponents (it's only the faction that they can ultimately pick). They clearly do not choose who they are dropping against (premade or not)... and neither do the solo players.

That's the core failure in your argument.

I don't believe that. I think if those units were as hypercompetitive as you claim, they would find a way to organize drops against each other. And all I've heard are excuses as to why it can't be done.

I get that it would be inconvenient, but then I remember all the times certain units have inconvenienced themselves to game the system to their benefit. And since it wouldn't be beneficial to them (reward-wise) to do it, they aren't even trying to seek each other out.

I'll bet you that if PGI incentivized payouts (double cbills and LP) for unit vs unit drops, allofasudden you guys would discover creative and interesting ways to set up battles on planets against each other.

[MrJeffers]

Fen Tetsudo, on 10 January 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

I don't believe that. I think if those units were as hypercompetitive as you claim, they would find a way to organize drops against each other. And all I've heard are excuses as to why it can't be done.

I get that it would be inconvenient, but then I remember all the times certain units have inconvenienced themselves to game the system to their benefit. And since it wouldn't be beneficial to them (reward-wise) to do it, they aren't even trying to seek each other out.

I'll bet you that if PGI incentivized payouts (double cbills and LP) for unit vs unit drops, allofasudden you guys would discover creative and interesting ways to set up battles on planets against each other.

Incentives don't remove the logistics issues of trying to organize two 12 man teams for hours at a time. If you had ever even tried this you would quit spouting this nonsense.

[Satan n stuff]

sycocys, on 08 January 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

#2 - With only a few exceptions this is pretty much flat out untrue. Unless its mostly honorable like MS, Kcom, or 228 - as soon as units outside the FRR hit competition they go fight on another border.

And there's a reason for this, because the reward system rewards them far better for doing so. More LP, 300k c-bills per match if they don't actually face the possibility of loss.

Sure, Davion units haven't been slugging it out with Marik and Liao units for weeks now, that was all just an illusion, right?
How could you possibly know what units outside the FRR are doing if you can't even see the queues for half the planets? I don't believe I've ever seen a Davion, Liao or Marik banner below your username so don't talk about things you clearly don't know the first thing about.