189 replies to this topic

[himself]

We need a rear-view camera via view-toggle.

A view-toggle would switch your view from in-cockpit to a camera-feed until you press the assigned key again.


Why has this not be implemented yet?

Edited by himself, 09 January 2016 - 01:09 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Because of a cryengine limitation.

Basically, having a rear camera causes double the draw calls, as the game has to render two separate images simultaneously. This isn't technologically impossible, of course, but the way cryengine works makes it impossible in MWO. At least without a massive performance cost, which would basically limit it to only people with high end systems, creating a world where those with more powerful computers have a substantial advantage.

[himself]

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

Because of a cryengine limitation.

Basically, having a rear camera causes double the draw calls, as the game has to render two separate images simultaneously. This isn't technologically impossible, of course, but the way cryengine works makes it impossible in MWO. At least without a massive performance cost, which would basically limit it to only people with high end systems, creating a world where those with more powerful computers have a substantial advantage.

And 3rd person...?

So take the 3rd person crap view that does nothing and point it backwards.

[Wintersdark]

himself, on 09 January 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

And 3rd person...?

So take the 3rd person crap view that does nothing and point it backwards.

3rd person is still for folks learning.


They certainly could have a rear view if it was the only view you could see at the time (switching between forward/rear, as opposed to both at once), but that's not going to happen. And really, it's a good thing. Makes the rear a more vulnerable area, and increases the need for scouts and players to pay attention.

You don't get crutches for all your vulnerabilities. Sometimes, you just need to buck up and deal.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

Because of a cryengine limitation.

Basically, having a rear camera causes double the draw calls, as the game has to render two separate images simultaneously. This isn't technologically impossible, of course, but the way cryengine works makes it impossible in MWO. At least without a massive performance cost, which would basically limit it to only people with high end systems, creating a world where those with more powerful computers have a substantial advantage.

No actually.

Cry engine can not render into more than 1 viewport. meaning no picture in picture support

Rear view via toggle is perfectly possible!

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 09 January 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

No actually.

Cry engine can not render into more than 1 viewport. meaning no picture in picture support

Rear view via toggle is perfectly possible!

I'd expect you could make it work in cryengine by alternating scenes. Render the rear view scene to a frame buffer, then the main scene. Scale down the rear view scene, display it as a static image within the main scene, which you actually display. Only rendering to one viewport at a time.

It'd come at a tremendous performance cost, though - more than halving framerate.

[TheoLu]

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

You don't get crutches for all your vulnerabilities. Sometimes, you just need to buck up and deal.

That robots so far into the future firin' frickin' laser beams can have little hovering remote-view cameras yet cannot have rear-view cameras equipped seems downright silly to me, personally. There are a multitude of displays in our mechs right now and several of those are doing nothing but repeating completely-meaningless animations.

I should think it'd be reasonable that it'd be possible to have a few displays relay information for what's going on around the mech, even if those cameras had to be somewhat weak and easy to knock out.

Take an LB-X 20 round to your right flank? Too bad, your camera there just got wiped out. LRM volley to your rear torso? There goes the camera(s) there! Your left torso got blown off? Forget about any cameras pointing in any direction you had on that side!

Even if it provides only initial situational awareness improvements, it could make for an interesting gameplay dynamic.

[Sjorpha]

I think it's a bad idea to implement rear view for gameplay reasons, it would hurt the stealth game too much.

[Wintersdark]

AnonyTerrorNinja, on 09 January 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

That robots so far into the future firin' frickin' laser beams can have little hovering remote-view cameras yet cannot have rear-view cameras equipped seems downright silly to me, personally. There are a multitude of displays in our mechs right now and several of those are doing nothing but repeating completely-meaningless animations.

I should think it'd be reasonable that it'd be possible to have a few displays relay information for what's going on around the mech, even if those cameras had to be somewhat weak and easy to knock out.

Take an LB-X 20 round to your right flank? Too bad, your camera there just got wiped out. LRM volley to your rear torso? There goes the camera(s) there! Your left torso got blown off? Forget about any cameras pointing in any direction you had on that side!

Even if it provides only initial situational awareness improvements, it could make for an interesting gameplay dynamic.

The only option to make it happen would be a toggle. To the rest, yeah it'd be cool, but its not going to happen. They cannot have side/rear cameras showing in cockpit displays. "Can not", not "will not".

Don't ever bring realism into the debate. Battletech is inherently ridiculous, the tech doesn't stand up to even very loose examination. Likewise with fluff reasoning - you can come up with all sorts of rationale to why you should or should not do anything.

What really matters is gameplay. Without rear view, and with sensors being only front facing, there's a fair bit of possibility for stealth gameplay. With the ability to quickly look backwards that goes away, as well as a major strength of lights/mediums (being able to turn/twist fast to look behind.

Edited by Wintersdark, 09 January 2016 - 01:52 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Sjorpha, on 09 January 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

I think it's a bad idea to implement rear view for gameplay reasons, it would hurt the stealth game too much.

Exactly.

As things are now, your ability to look behind is heavily dependent on your mech. How far can it twist, and how fast? Are you willing to expose your back to things on front of you to look?

Rear cam takes that away.

[himself]

Sjorpha, on 09 January 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

I think it's a bad idea to implement rear view for gameplay reasons, it would hurt the stealth game too much.

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Exactly.

As things are now, your ability to look behind is heavily dependent on your mech. How far can it twist, and how fast? Are you willing to expose your back to things on front of you to look?

Rear cam takes that away.

No, it would not.

I am interested in what train of thought you are employing to reach this erroneous conclusion.

[TheoLu]

I suggested destructible cameras for a reason. Before you go rushing up on the rear of a mech, determine whether its flank and rear cameras are still active. They are? Deal with those first, THEN go rushing in.

You don't go rushing head-first towards a 6xSSRM Mad Dog in something like a Cicada and not expect for things to end poorly, right? You wait until some/most/all of its weapons have been dealt with from a distance (or you have ECM coverage you know won't be broken at the worst moment) first and then head in when it's reasonable/safe to do so.

The cameras –again, destructible ones which provide only an initial utility but could be quickly removed– add to gameplay, they don't remove from it, and they most certainly do NOT remove stealth gameplay.

An indestructible rear-view camera would do *that*.

Edited by AnonyTerrorNinja, 09 January 2016 - 02:08 PM.

[himself]

Damage directional indicators should be removed too then.

[LordNothing]

while render to texture is a little expensive. one has to realize how cheap rendering is. this game probibly uses less than a third of my low end video card's resources. then you realize you are rendering to a low resolution texture, you are switching off some things like particles and shadows for speed, you also dont have to update them at the same rate as the main viewport. i dont think the performance hit would be over 15%, and im sure my rig can handle that.

then when it works i want a crotch cam on my urbanmechs.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 January 2016 - 02:54 PM.

[ReemusX]

I would think a rear view wouldn't be much different than free look as far as rendering.

[VinJade]

the rear facing view would be helpful, I could avoid running over a lighter lance mate with my stalker and dealing damage to their legs.

[Wintersdark]

ReemusX, on 09 January 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

I would think a rear view wouldn't be much different than free look as far as rendering.

unrelated. An always visible rear cam is effectively impossible. A toggle rear view can work (only displaying one render at a time).

AnonyTerrorNinja, on 09 January 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

I suggested destructible cameras for a reason. Before you go rushing up on the rear of a mech, determine whether its flank and rear cameras are still active. They are? Deal with those first, THEN go rushing in.

You don't go rushing head-first towards a 6xSSRM Mad Dog in something like a Cicada and not expect for things to end poorly, right? You wait until some/most/all of its weapons have been dealt with from a distance (or you have ECM coverage you know won't be broken at the worst moment) first and then head in when it's reasonable/safe to do so.

The cameras –again, destructible ones which provide only an initial utility but could be quickly removed– add to gameplay, they don't remove from it, and they most certainly do NOT remove stealth gameplay.

An indestructible rear-view camera would do *that*.

Impractical. We don't have individually destructible elements. Basically, adding wholly new game mechanics isn't going to happen. Good idea or not, it just isn't. There are too many major elements that are much more important that need work.

Way too complicated, not going to happen.

[Revis Volek]

himself, on 09 January 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

No, it would not.

I am interested in what train of thought you are employing to reach this erroneous conclusion.

ID like to know what train of thought or mental backflips you are doing that has gotten you to think other wise? What did he say that is not true and what is the counter argument you have then?

Half of my light mechs would loss a job/role if they couldnt really stab backs. We already have seismic sensor and dmg indicators so what else do you guys need to know someone is shooting you in the back or sneaking up on you?

[Wintersdark]

himself, on 09 January 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

Damage directional indicators should be removed too then.

one is not adding more, the other is removing existing features. Do you not see the difference? Not adding more features is free. Removing existing features comes at a cost in dev time to remove and wastes the initial time developing.

As well, one can argue that existing stealth gameplay is fine, it doesn't need to be stronger (removing damage indicators) or weaker (adding a rear cam). In short, that "might as well" is just stupid.

DarthRevis, on 09 January 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

ID like to know what train of thought or mental backflips you are doing that has gotten you to think other wise? What did he say that is not true and what is the counter argument you have then?

Half of my light mechs would loss a job/role if they couldnt really stab backs. We already have seismic sensor and dmg indicators so what else do you guys need to know someone is shooting you in the back or sneaking up on you?

Exactly.

Right now, you can sneak up behind someone (but not close, if they have seismic and aren't moving), but when you fire you give away your position. It's in a good place now.

Edited by Wintersdark, 09 January 2016 - 03:32 PM.

[Lazor Sharp]

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

Because of a cryengine limitation.

Basically, having a rear camera causes double the draw calls, as the game has to render two separate images simultaneously. This isn't technologically impossible, of course, but the way cryengine works makes it impossible in MWO. At least without a massive performance cost, which would basically limit it to only people with high end systems, creating a world where those with more powerful computers have a substantial advantage.

I call BS,

A toggle button for a full screen rear view is entirely possible, as it is Not PiP....!!!!! no draw calls no buffer, just straight push the buttobn and the WHOLE screen is rear view....!!!! This is one of my biggest pet peeves about MWO, when even MW2 has a full screen rear view, this cant be lost tech....... I hate that i cant see if i am backing up against a wall, or another mech that's walked up behind me, or hung up on a pebble, or where that pesky light is at, that is popping me in the butt....!!!!

PGI, JUST DO IT....!!!!!