13 replies to this topic

[Darena Bryant]

Ok, this is something I've been wondering for a while.

I know there are skills and equipment a person can gain that disrupt targeting (I use a missile boat, so targeting plays a huge part of my offensive game). But in this last game I had something happen that just... confused me. One of my long range targets started to approach me directly. I had locked on to him, and was peppering him with LRMs. He eventually shook my lock (this is one thing I honestly don't understand that happens all the time. I'll have someone locked, and then before I can even fire at them, they'll vanish, shaking the lock off. The small red arrow that shows where they are disappears, along with my lock on. Sometimes it appear right away again, less than half a second after it vanished. Sometimes I'll still be locked on, sometimes not. Almost always, my locks will flicker in and out randomly for no apparent reason. Occasionally I can hold a lock and do some damage... but then the target vanishes yet again.)

Now here's where it gets odd. I could SEE him coming towards me. He was right there in my line of sight, if just on the edge of visibility. I began hitting him with medium lasers and then with SRMs. AND I COULDN'T LOCK ON TO HIM AGAIN. He was able to walk right up to me without me being able to hit "R" and get a lock. Is this some kind of game mechanic? Is it equipment or a skill? I use Artemis on my missiles, so being able to lock on is essential for the homing feature, right? So why is it the lock on feature seems to not work very well at all?

Needless to say he started shooting back at me. New Catapults are slow and ungainly, and I was in a POG, so no real teamwork was going on. I backed away, but he ended up destroying me anyway with no one to give me some support. I DID manage to lock on shortly before taking critical damage, but by then it was kinda pointless. xP

So why does targeting flicker in and out so constantly? And why would I be unable to target and lock on to someone I could see walking towards me?

[Wintersdark]

ECM.

[Wintersdark]

Things have changed a few times recently, and I'll admit I'm not at 100% on details. But generally speaking, if the enemy mech is within 90m of an ECM mech (or one themselves), they'll vanish off your sensors. If they are within a certain range of you (but you yourself are not in an enemy ECM bubble) you'll be able to target them, but it'll take a looooooong time to get a missile lock. If an enemy ECM mech is within 90m of YOU, you'll be unable to lock enemy mechs. Unless someone within 180m of the ECM mech has Beagle/Clan Active Probe, or friendly ECM set to counter mode.

There's some interactions which allow you to target ECM mechs.

[Golrar]

Bottom line, equip the BAP on your Cat. It will counter the ECM before he gets into your minimum range for LRMs, and it will help with targeting.

If the enemy disappears for a second and comes right back it is usually somebody running the radar dep module. Radar dep lets them instantly lose lock once they are out of LOS.

BTW, you can dumb fire LRMs. Just put a little ahead of the oncoming mech and fire. Won't get the best results but you will still do damage until he gets within 180m.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

^^^ All of THIS.

See, ECM prevents target locks. BAP/cAP counters that, or another ECM close to it in COUNTER mode will, within a certain range. When the ECM mech gets TOO close to you, though, (90m I believe) then you can't lock or share targets AT ALL without countering it.

Also, if you lose direct line of sight the target will decay. As stated above, if that target has the Radar Deprivation module (a must for most builds), then you'll lose the lock right away, as well as all targeting data, and even the red dorito. IF you have the Target Decay module on your mech, you'll get a longer decay time on the target (stock is like 2.0 or 2.5 seconds, I think, extended to up to 3.5 with the second tier of the module). I'm not honestly sure how the two modules interact. That is, if YOU have the target decay module, and your target has the radar derp module, I couldn't tell you how that works out. An I'd honestly love to test it in a private match some time.

Also, Active Probe speeds up locks and target information gathering. Clan Targeting Computers and IS Command Consoles also speed up target info gathering. And there's a module that also speeds up TIG. Not a big deal for an LRM carrier, but good to know otherwise. ACTIVE PROBE IS A MUST-HAVE FOR ANY MECH WITH SSRMs or LRMs!

Last thing. TAG gives you a more accurate spread, and can make ECM-shielded mechs targetable for you. 2/3 missile-carrier Catapults have E hard points on them, so they should be carrying TAG in any case where they're being used primarily to carry LRMs (SplatCats and StreakCats don't need to worry as much, though). If you can set up a toggle for one of your keys, then it's often a good idea (once the dookie hits the fan) to have TAG on a toggle button, so that you can hit it once and have it on, rather than having to hold the button down.

TL;DR- Get AP and target decay modules, and preferably TAG as well. You'll do just fine against ANYTHING in range.

[mailin]

One more thing to be aware of, IS lrms, like on the Catapult have a minimum range of 180m. Any less than that and they do no damage to the enemy. Also, if you take a TAG, you can tag enemies and lock them that way, as long as you have line of sight, of course.

[TheCaptainJZ]

TheRAbbi, on 09 January 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

I'm not honestly sure how the two modules interact. That is, if YOU have the target decay module, and your target has the radar derp module, I couldn't tell you how that works out. An I'd honestly love to test it in a private match some time.

I've read that the effects of both happen. That is radar dep decreases the target decay by whatever amount of seconds is normal, but target decay increases it by whatever seconds so put the two together and I think you get like 1-2 sec of the target decay's ability. I think the tool tip says the time amounts for each module now.

[Darena Bryant]

After reading all the comments here, I want to add a few things and ask a few follow up questions.

First, the ECM comments. I thought that those mechs you're trying to target that had ECM coverage would have the red eye symbol next to them, showing they were under ECM and <then> they would vanish. This is NOT what's happening. There's nothing to show they have ECM coverage; I target, then I aim for a lock... and almost at the exact time I GET the lock, they vanish, red triangle and all, only to reappear a second later, sometimes with the "targeted" frame still in place, and sometimes not. From what I've read here, this sounds more like the "targeting derp" skill people are describing.

I use BAP. It doesn't seem to affect this phenomenon in the least. I don't have the Target Decay boost for my mech. And I guess this shows how new I am to the game; the most suggested cause is the Targetting Denial module, which costs quite a bit in both EXP and C-bills... if <that> many people have that in place already, I'm kinda screwed for a while until I can get more skills/equipment to counter that.

I'm aware of my LRM missile ranges. I know I can't really use LRMs at close range (they don't arm til they get a certain distance from your mech) although I have ALSO used them to foul a close mechs sight a little by flinging some in their face when they rush me. I can only imagine a bunch of missiles, armed or not, hitting your windshield suddenly to be a little distracting ( I'd appreciate anyone who knows what it's like to be on the receiving end of this to let me know if it actually makes a sound or has some visual cluttering when this happens; if not, I'd rather not waste the ammo. Although to be honest, once they get that close, I tend to go down pretty fast. ^^;; ). I keep SRMs and medium lasers for when enemies get in too close.

Can someone explain how TAG works? The description describes something like a laser pointer? ...which seems like it would be pretty useless when you're using indirect fire. Is it just that you have to aim in the targeted person's direction for it to work, and they don't have to be in direct line of sight, like you have to do to attain a target lock? It sounds like it's just a laser pointer that you put on the target in order to shoot at it. If so, does it work far enough out to help with LRMs? I might be playing on too crappy a laptop to get good visuals if so; most mechs that are very distant are also just <barely> visible to try to aim for. Would painting someone with the TAG make them stabilize enough to get a lock on? Very often I'll pan across an enemy mech at long range, and not even have the red triangle appear to show they're there at all, even when I can SEE them.

I read that the Command Module just feeds you data on the type and damage on the mech you're targeting and doesn't actually help with the targetting itself. Is that right? If so, there's no real point in getting it, as it won't help with indirect fire targeting at all? Or does having that info allow you to deal more damage? I know on closer range fighters you can use that info to know where to focus your shots, but I play mainly with missiles, which you can't really point at a specific point on a mech.

Active Probe is that consumable thing that expires after one use, right? Sorry, but... not gonna get that until I actually get better. ^^; (Unless I'm wrong). Those things cost money, and literally wasting one each fight is going to be too counter productive to my trying to:

1) Upgrade my current mech, and
2) Buy two more so I can train their skills and get to the elite skills and mastery skills.

It's already a pain trying to save C-bills as it is while training skills; consumables just seem to make the process even slower. If I earn 150k a fight, then spend 40k on something I can only use once I feel like I'm throwing money away. ...and that's assuming I do well in a fight and don't get super ganked in the first minute or so. (God, I hate all small mech teams!)

Edited by Darena Bryant, 10 January 2016 - 10:01 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Darena Bryant, on 10 January 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

After reading all the comments here, I want to add a few things and ask a few follow up questions.

First, the ECM comments. I thought that those mechs you're trying to target that had ECM coverage would have the red eye symbol next to them, showing they were under ECM and <then> they would vanish. This is NOT what's happening. There's nothing to show they have ECM coverage; I target, then I aim for a lock... and almost at the exact time I GET the lock, they vanish, red triangle and all, only to reappear a second later, sometimes with the "targeted" frame still in place, and sometimes not. From what I've read here, this sounds more like the "targeting derp" skill people are describing.

Yeah sounds like radar deprivation. Also, for computational purposes, if you have LoS to an enemy, it does a ray trace from maybe your cockpit to the center of their mech so if it is partially obscured, you might loose the lock. Also, if you have low graphic settings, the terrain might "pop" with more detail at close range but at longer range they might be behind cover but you can't tell because of the graphics and how well the contour of the ground/rock is displaying. It might flatten areas that are enough to block direct shots. This used to be more of a problem on the old maps that they have now redone. Trees and rocks might make you loose the lock and in combination with radar dep, explains your observations.

Darena Bryant, on 10 January 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

I use BAP. It doesn't seem to affect this phenomenon in the least. I don't have the Target Decay boost for my mech. And I guess this shows how new I am to the game; the most suggested cause is the Targetting Denial module, which costs quite a bit in both EXP and C-bills... if <that> many people have that in place already, I'm kinda screwed for a while until I can get more skills/equipment to counter that.

It's probably the best module and everyone that can afford to, uses it. Especially great on fast mechs but all benefit.

Darena Bryant, on 10 January 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

I'm aware of my LRM missile ranges. I know I can't really use LRMs at close range (they don't arm til they get a certain distance from your mech) although I have ALSO used them to foul a close mechs sight a little by flinging some in their face when they rush me. I can only imagine a bunch of missiles, armed or not, hitting your windshield suddenly to be a little distracting ( I'd appreciate anyone who knows what it's like to be on the receiving end of this to let me know if it actually makes a sound or has some visual cluttering when this happens; if not, I'd rather not waste the ammo. Although to be honest, once they get that close, I tend to go down pretty fast. ^^;; ). I keep SRMs and medium lasers for when enemies get in too close.

Visually, those LRMS (Inner Sphere) actually bounce off within that distance. Don't know if it makes a noise or screen shake, but it does generate heat that you could use for backup weapons so you might as well not do it.

Darena Bryant, on 10 January 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Can someone explain how TAG works? The description describes something like a laser pointer? ...which seems like it would be pretty useless when you're using indirect fire. Is it just that you have to aim in the targeted person's direction for it to work, and they don't have to be in direct line of sight, like you have to do to attain a target lock? It sounds like it's just a laser pointer that you put on the target in order to shoot at it. If so, does it work far enough out to help with LRMs? I might be playing on too crappy a laptop to get good visuals if so; most mechs that are very distant are also just <barely> visible to try to aim for. Would painting someone with the TAG make them stabilize enough to get a lock on? Very often I'll pan across an enemy mech at long range, and not even have the red triangle appear to show they're there at all, even when I can SEE them.

TAG is like a laser pointer, yes, so only helps if you are in LoS. But if an enemy is shooting you, you might very well be in LoS. It has a 1 sec duration and is able to cut through ECM on a mech to enable targeting in addition to providing LRM bonuses (not sure if the bonuses are when the missiles are launched or for however long the TAG is on target). I forget but it's like tighter grouping or something. The range is 750 meters.

Darena Bryant, on 10 January 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

I read that the Command Module just feeds you data on the type and damage on the mech you're targeting and doesn't actually help with the targetting itself. Is that right? If so, there's no real point in getting it, as it won't help with indirect fire targeting at all? Or does having that info allow you to deal more damage? I know on closer range fighters you can use that info to know where to focus your shots, but I play mainly with missiles, which you can't really point at a specific point on a mech.

I don't think anyone uses the Command Console. It's heavy for what it gives you. It's not very helpful for missiles at all.

Darena Bryant, on 10 January 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Active Probe is that consumable thing that expires after one use, right? Sorry, but... not gonna get that until I actually get better. ^^; (Unless I'm wrong). Those things cost money, and literally wasting one each fight is going to be too counter productive to my trying to:

1) Upgrade my current mech, and
2) Buy two more so I can train their skills and get to the elite skills and mastery skills.

It's already a pain trying to save C-bills as it is while training skills; consumables just seem to make the process even slower. If I earn 150k a fight, then spend 40k on something I can only use once I feel like I'm throwing money away. ...and that's assuming I do well in a fight and don't get super ganked in the first minute or so. (God, I hate all small mech teams!)

You are thinking of a UAV=Unmanned Aerial Vehicle.
UAV's are probably the best consumable you can get. You do have to pay for them and you can definitely be throwing money away like you said, but if you place it well, you do get cbill and xp rewards from it's actions such as countering ECM, allies damaging a mech lit up by the UAV in addition to being potentially very helpful to your team for LRM boats. But people really look out for those and shoot them down fast, so it is a gamble. If you are disciplined enough, you can purchase one and mount it, then not use it every match (it will roll over to the next if you don't use it). Still, if you haven't unlocked the skills to make it equal to the MC version, you might as well hold off on using it until you spend the GXP on it (and I forget the actual skill name, but I think it's the only one for improving UAV. Arty and Airstrike have 2 different modules each, but only the right one will actually improve them to be equal to the MC versions).
Active Probe, or cAP (Clan Active Probe) is the Clan version of BAP (Beagle Active Probe) except that the ranges are different and the Clan version will not counter the ECM of the closest enemy mech, but the one that you have targeted (so it's weaker in that regard).

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 10 January 2016 - 10:54 AM.

[William Slayer]

The match you describe where he was walking right at you, with the target lock flashing on and off (no red box around him at all right?), sound VERY much like another mech near him had ECM and was drifting close to him, then just far enough away to let you "see" him on radar for a few seconds.

VERY FRUSTRAIGHTING I know!!

Solution is a TAG. I hate them, but for that very specific scenario it would have gotten you a lock.

[Wulfgott]

Aside from all the comments about DERP, ECM, BAP/CAP, etc... etc...

I have experienced this same issue more than couple times in the last few days. I believed it was an ECM mech or something else at range that was in cover or something I could not see. However, after experiencing it again on the new polar highlands map. I am convinced that something else is going on.

I have had a mech approaching, much like the original poster mentions. The targeting flickering on and off for a few seconds here and there. No other mechs around it or mine. All of a sudden, my lock is gone and no dorito filled or otherwise only to have it reappear seconds later and have to reacquire lock. I routinely use Active probe and TAG. There is something else going on here. It is inconsistent. This from my experience with it is not an ECM issue or a DERP issue though. Possibly just a glitch,... that is of course unless they have implemented code for the Kell's Phantom Mech Ability and we are the guinea pigs...

[Rogue Jedi]

Wulfgott, on 20 January 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Possibly just a glitch,... that is of course unless they have implemented code for the Kell's Phantom Mech Ability and we are the guinea pigs...

well Morgan Kell's Archer which according to lore has that ability is just 2 months away, and after the UrbanMechs Death Blosssom ability posted 1 April 2015 ] it is possible

^{(unfortunately I have never been able to figure out how to activate the Death Blossom)}

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 20 January 2016 - 09:58 AM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Rogue Jedi, on 20 January 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

well Morgan Kell's Archer which according to lore has that ability is just 2 months away, and after the UrbanMechs Death Blosssom ability posted 1 April 2015 ] it is possible
^{(unfortunately I have never been able to figure out how to activate the Death Blossom)}

Good thing you haven't figured it out. It's a weapon of last resort.

[BarHaid]

A question for you Darena. Are you using the third person view camera drone? If so, your LOS might have been blocked, but you couldn't tell because your camera was above the terrain.