31 replies to this topic

[SmokinJoeD]

I have to say my first foray into Faction play has not been fun.

Every match is a resounding loss to the IS. Typically in the 46-20 range at best.

Noone calls the match. We dont use our speed or alpha, or range but instead choose to stand in one spot trying to trade shots playing completely into the enemies strengths.

I know some of you will respond that your unit does better but I would say that the map says otherwise.

It is unfortunate that the clans are not competative with the IS it makes the game really incomplete.

I think a single TS for the Clan is a good start. I would expect that planet attacks and defenses be coordinated through TS to put together the best possible force REGARDLESS of unit. The next step would be to start identifying leadership and making it visible in TS so that Unit leaders can call the match.

I think more than game balance or mech prices leaving people new to the clan to go through this experience will surely drive them to join IS.

[Jep Jorgensson]

SmokinJoeD, on 10 January 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I have to say my first foray into Faction play has not been fun.

Every match is a resounding loss to the IS. Typically in the 46-20 range at best.

Noone calls the match. We dont use our speed or alpha, or range but instead choose to stand in one spot trying to trade shots playing completely into the enemies strengths.

I know some of you will respond that your unit does better but I would say that the map says otherwise.

It is unfortunate that the clans are not competative with the IS it makes the game really incomplete.

I think a single TS for the Clan is a good start. I would expect that planet attacks and defenses be coordinated through TS to put together the best possible force REGARDLESS of unit. The next step would be to start identifying leadership and making it visible in TS so that Unit leaders can call the match.

I think more than game balance or mech prices leaving people new to the clan to go through this experience will surely drive them to join IS.

You are right on all counts. The game devs nerfed Clan tech so badly while still charging us 2-3 times more than the IS that it causes players to go IS instead. As for those unorganized CW drops, chances are they were mostly newbs that are still trying to beat the IS since the more experienced Clan players have either:

1. Switched sides since IS is clearly superior in every way now.

2. Do not bother with CW anymore since there is really no point to it the way it is now.

3. Or just simply taking a break from the game if not leaving the game altogether.

Seriously, the IS always had the prices, the population, the number of factions, and the territory. Now though, the baka devs even gave them the tech which is now showing on the map. We have always known that the devs were biased against the Clans, but to the point where they were willing to kill CW in the process was previously unthinkable.

CW in no longer any fun. My unit specializes in CW fighting and yet we rarely ever do it now. Even if we win a few battles (which is a big IF now) we still have no chance at holding a planet for any length of time. Even if we can win all the battles against them (which is now impossible), all they have to do is to attack en masse with their superior numbers and ghost drop their way to victory. Where is the fun in that?

[Aiden Skye]

Sounds like Pug life to me. I just finished grinding out Rank 20 for CGB, 99% of my matches were as a solo pug. With the arrival of the steam players it has gotten worse. Add to that most of the decent units out there are playing IS.

So what we have is usually a case of Seal team 6 on the enemy team, vs the Seals. People just stand around waiting for locks. Someone is shooting them in the face they don't move to spread damage. Too many players afraid to make the 1st move. Too many players afraid to scratch their paint. Too many players in bad trial mechs - looking at you stock Shadowcat and EBJ. Too many players who haven't grasped that this is a team game not CoD! Too many players that don't listen to veterans!

Jep, on 11 January 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

You are right on all counts. The game devs nerfed Clan tech so badly while still charging us 2-3 times more than the IS that it causes players to go IS instead. As for those unorganized CW drops, chances are they were mostly newbs that are still trying to beat the IS since the more experienced Clan players have either:

1. Switched sides since IS is clearly superior in every way now.

2. Do not bother with CW anymore since there is really no point to it the way it is now.

3. Or just simply taking a break from the game if not leaving the game altogether.

Seriously, the IS always had the prices, the population, the number of factions, and the territory. Now though, the baka devs even gave them the tech which is now showing on the map. We have always known that the devs were biased against the Clans, but to the point where they were willing to kill CW in the process was previously unthinkable.

CW in no longer any fun...

1st off - IS mechs are not that much cheaper. With clan mechs you are paying upfront for Double heatsinks, Endo/ferro, XL Engine and whatever equipment is locked in there.

2nd - I think IS is over-quirked in many ways. But the way most people talk about it....then struggle to put up any damage match after match, I don't think they have any basis for their arguments. First you have to realize when you are the problem and you are under-performing so you can better see what is actually out of line. On my way to Galaxy Commander III I've had so many matches where I'm an a crap drop deck for grins and half the team is complaining that IS is broken and OP. End of match score screen comes up and it looks something like this:
Too many games like this to count. If you cannot put up 1k damage in 4 mechs at the very minimum, the problem is you!

[Jaroth Corbett]

SmokinJoeD, on 10 January 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I think a single TS for the Clan is a good start.

Strana Mechty - Homeworld of the Clans Teamspeak Server is Public

IP: STRANAMECHTY.INFO
PW: StranaMechty

case sensitive

[Jep Jorgensson]

W A R K H A N, on 11 January 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

1st off - IS mechs are not that much cheaper.

With clan mechs you are paying upfront for Double heatsinks, Endo/ferro, XL Engine and whatever equipment is locked in there.

2nd - I think IS is over-quirked in many ways. But the way most people talk about it....then struggle to put up any damage match after match, I don't think they have any basis for their arguments. First you have to realize when you are the problem and you are under-performing so you can better see what is actually out of line. On my way to Galaxy Commander III I've had so many matches where I'm an a crap drop deck for grins and half the team is complaining that IS is broken and OP. End of match score screen comes up and it looks something like this:
Too many games like this to count. If you cannot put up 1k damage in 4 mechs at the very minimum, the problem is you!

I have fought alongside you before and respect you and your abilities, but seriously?

Oh really? The cheapest IS mech (Locust) costs between 1.3-1.8 million c-bills while the cheapest Clan mech (Mist Lynx) costs between 3.6-4.2 million c-bills (and this is the MLX's sale price!).

IS can switch to double heat sinks that are better than ours (1.5/.14 containment/dissipation rate to our 1.1/.15) too, you know. They can also fully customize their engines, armor, and internals any time they want, we cannot.

As for the rest, since I have no intention of lowing myself to personal jabs as you appear to be doing, I am going to ignore it.

If you wish to dispute my argument, then please present at least some facts to support your side. Claiming that the truth is not true without any facts at all only serves to embarrass and demean yourself.

[Aiden Skye]

Jep, on 12 January 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

I have fought alongside you before and respect you and your abilities, but seriously?

Oh really? The cheapest IS mech (Locust) costs between 1.3-1.8 million c-bills while the cheapest Clan mech (Mist Lynx) costs between 3.6-4.2 million c-bills (and this is the MLX's sale price!).

IS can switch to double heat sinks that are better than ours (1.5/.14 containment/dissipation rate to our 1.1/.15) too, you know. They can also fully customize their engines, armor, and internals any time they want, we cannot.

As for the rest, since I have no intention of lowing myself to personal jabs as you appear to be doing, I am going to ignore it.

If you wish to dispute my argument, then please present at least some facts to support your side. Claiming that the truth is not true without any facts at all only serves to embarrass and demean yourself.

Locust costs 1.4 - 1.7 million
Max XL engine for a locust - 3.1 million.
Double heat sinks - 1.5 million
Endo, not sure how much that costs on a locust.

So just by upgrading to double heat-sinks you're around 3 million.
Cost goes up to 5-6 million when you add a decent XL.
Most decent IS light builds run an XL because speed is life in a light.

The mist lynx comes with double heat-sinks and a Max XL for it's size. An CXL175. An IS XL175 costs 2.8 million. Combined total value of 4.3 million in IS value. The stock engine,a standard 160, costs 900k by comparison - A standard 160. So as I just pointed out, the price different isn't that big and in many cases the IS mech will cost more.

And I never personally attacked you, don't think things personally. I'm pointing out what I've seen in game where people complain that clan mechs are crap. Usually the ones that complain in game about clan mechs don't put up the numbers and they're playstyle has many issues that should be addressed first.

Let me reword this as you seem to have taken this the wrong way - If I put up under 1k damage in a game, I recognize it wasn't the mech it was me failing to shoot enough, land my shots, get into good positions and get good damage trades. 1k damage across 4 mechs = 250 damage a mech. Thats a pretty low bar to fall under.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 12 January 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Fulgar]

I too have played with Warkhan and respect him and when you look at what he is saying, you'll understand that it is truly the teamplay aspect of the game and not the mechs.

I have been in plenty of matches recently that we as a PUG clan drop against a PUG IS drop just straight up smoke them. First mech for me was over 1k damage.

Everything that Warkhan has said in regards to what he did in the game, applies to all of us. We do not have to take meta'd out mechs to be effect...my drop deck is Warhawk, Hellbringer, 2xStormcrows with the current tonnage, last drop deck was Warhawk, Hellbringer, Shadowcat and Stormcrow. So, as you can see these are not the Timbers or EBJ and lasered out to the nines

It all comes down to communicating. Someone call targets, location, type of mech and call sign. Even against a pre-made we can hold our own. My son and I were in a PUG against -MS- I think it was, and we put up a heck of fight, lost 40-48. I was just calling targets as they headed to our drop zone and low and behold people listened.

Also, please for the love of Kerensky, have fun and do not take the game to seriously. We all love our big *** mechs! Go in with your own goal and work on that.

Thanks,
Fulgar

[KHETTI]

Moral of this thread.....Don't solo drop in CW!.

[Alienized]

alot of people lack something important in here: the simple thing to understand.
understanding how maps are played.
understanding how clan mechs work.
understanding how IS mechs work.
understanding in positioning and alot of more.

this is not a simple face to face shoot-off shooter.
this is not your stompy robot CoD.
this is about 12 of you playing 12 of them.
together. even as solo drops.

only if you can understand all the relations you have in a battle here you can get better.
that wont come by crying and forumposting.

it comes by reading and learning.

since i play in a dedicated IS-merc unit that will never switch to clans i have to play them solo/group queue only and they are just not as bad as many of you say. it is totally different from IS. from there its all about testing and adapting.

i always loved the summoner and i do drive it here. with a loadout most of you would never think is worth using.
triple LBX 2 + 2small lasers.
you know what? its heck of fun (and can be devastating lel)

find your own way to play BUT never leave your team. then even the worst mechs/loadouts do well.
sidenote: clan/is balance on CW side was never better. both have advantages/disadvantages that can be used.
just do it.

[Lord Creston]

Our unit (2323 Reggies) is doing rotation right now through cgb. We are about 80% IS and 20% clan on average. We had to adapt our playstyle in order to be successful but we find both sides of the coin we are equally likely to get a victory or defeat. So I would challenge that the balance is ever changing but right now you can be roughly as successful on each side all other things being equal.
It is all about who has the most uncooperative team about 90% of the time. If your always pugging and want to improve those odds your going to have to very patiently try to drop command your team in the absence of no other leader. Other than that your going to be pugsurfing to max your damage while leaving victory simply to chance. At least that's been my solo and group experiences.

In short my humble opinion is both sides don't have a clear advantage so long as you are willing to adapt your play style and drumming up teamwork is the best chance to secure victory.

Also I highly recommend anyone who thinks it's unbalanced to take a week contract on the other side to see exactly what does and doesn't work against IS as you are in their cockpits. Its an added bonus to being in a unit that occassionally rotates IS and clan.

[Jep Jorgensson]

@W A R K H A N Assuming you are right about the prices, which side has the mechs with the most and biggest quirks now?

P.S. I have achieved 1000+ damage in CW with my KFX alone many times so that is not the issue.

While everyone makes valid points to one extent or another, how does everyone propose balancing the pilot population?

Clan tech nerffing aside, I already mentioned here that even if we win every battle, all they have to do is to attack us with numbers and ghost drop their way to victory. During the Battle of Tukayyid, the IS normally had several more groups than the Clans in queue at any given time. At one point, I counted 26 IS groups ( 26 x 12 =, you do the math) waiting in queue with 0 Clan groups. Additionally, with the steam release since then, their ranks have swollen far more than ours have.

So, how do we defeat an enemy that can simply ghost drop their way to victory with sheer numbers alone? Teamwork? Calling targets? Understanding how our mechs work? I am most curious to hear your answers.

Edited by Jep, 13 January 2016 - 08:03 PM.

[Ivan Romatovich Kerensky]

Jep, on 12 January 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

So, how do we defeat an enemy that can simply ghost drop their way to victory with sheer numbers alone? Teamwork? Calling targets? Understanding how our mechs work? I am most curious to hear your answers.

Recruit and train. Fact is in the lower tiers (4 and 5), there are hundreds of factionless players aimlessly pugging in public matches. There are folks who have declared a faction but have no unit tag. Lead and swell your ranks. Last night we. (2323), had a full 12 running so those of us who came later formed up and went into cw as just a lance to start with. 4 of us with 8 randoms demolished the IS who faced us simply because the random cgb unitless listened, asked questions over voip and had them answered. You can not force population balance imo. You have too build it by being a unit or faction people want too be a part of. By being a positive example of the community. By being a leader.

[SmokinJoeD]

Thank you all for your considered responses.

Although there are some differences of opinion regarding IS vs Mech tech balance, I would list that under the catagory of things that we have no control over. It has always been part of this games premise that the Clan mechs advantage was speed and range. The reality of these advantages is that it takes a more skilled group to pull that off.

My only desire is to see some more competitive faction play, even if it does not translate to taking and holding a lot of planets.

Winning the matches would be great, but I would gladly settle for close competitive matches.

I have an idea I would love to hear your opinion on.

I would like to see ALL the SMALL units of players refer their new recruits to a 1-3 Larger, more organised, regional units. These Large units would have a rotation of Senior Officers willing to organize and CALL drops. Using either in game ranking or rank associated tags in TS these senior officers would be able to call on all players currently on line to put together the best possible unit. I think that would be the biggest advantage to having all CGB on the same TS server. Steering new CGB members to a central command for a period would establish a pattern of co-operation and communication that should help unify our efforts. I can see already that some of you agree, TS would be a great way to grab a lance from a different Unit rather than spending a half an hour waiting for 4 more guys from your unit to show up.

Why are there so many small groups? I don't understand. You can be part of a larger group and still play with, and drop with who you choose right?

Second, I rarely see any use being made of Faction chat. IS there a way we can use this to organize drops better?

[Tenzuuu]

SmokinJoeD, on 10 January 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I have to say my first foray into Faction play has not been fun.

Every match is a resounding loss to the IS. Typically in the 46-20 range at best.

Noone calls the match. We dont use our speed or alpha, or range but instead choose to stand in one spot trying to trade shots playing completely into the enemies strengths.

I know some of you will respond that your unit does better but I would say that the map says otherwise.

It is unfortunate that the clans are not competative with the IS it makes the game really incomplete.

I think a single TS for the Clan is a good start. I would expect that planet attacks and defenses be coordinated through TS to put together the best possible force REGARDLESS of unit. The next step would be to start identifying leadership and making it visible in TS so that Unit leaders can call the match.

I think more than game balance or mech prices leaving people new to the clan to go through this experience will surely drive them to join IS.

It's Ghost Bear. I had the exact same experience as with many other new players. Switching to Jade Falcon has been a massive breath of fresh air, the pugs (pick up groups, a.k.a randoms) all use their microphones and communicate, with no lack of drop leaders.

I was a drop leader in Ghost Bear (simply out of my frustration with NO ONE ELSE DOING IT - except Grason Death hes awesome) and people just don't listen, don't communicate etc etc. Just getting people to listen to the drop leader is a struggle.

Lastly, there is also only 2 decent units in Ghost Bear. German Clan Ghost Bear (GCGB) and Clan Ghost Bear International (CGBI) but, CGBI doesn't participate in CW anymore. The rest of the Ghost Bear units are pretty terrible.

[StonedVet]

Tenzuuu, on 13 January 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

It's Ghost Bear. I had the exact same experience as with many other new players. Switching to Jade Falcon has been a massive breath of fresh air, the pugs (pick up groups, a.k.a randoms) all use their microphones and communicate, with no lack of drop leaders.

I was a drop leader in Ghost Bear (simply out of my frustration with NO ONE ELSE DOING IT - except Grason Death hes awesome) and people just don't listen, don't communicate etc etc. Just getting people to listen to the drop leader is a struggle.

Lastly, there is also only 2 decent units in Ghost Bear. German Clan Ghost Bear (GCGB) and Clan Ghost Bear International (CGBI) but, CGBI doesn't participate in CW anymore. The rest of the Ghost Bear units are pretty terrible.

I suggest being more observant to CGB actions. Specially when we are walking over planets we attack only to lose them to 4am ghost drops.

[KHAN ATTAKHAN]

Some-one needs a hug me thinks, forget the serious side of the game for a moment, jump into a unit that has some fun, get to know the guys your with and you'll find it more enjoyable, also some of units like ours love having a laugh but we have our serious side.
"Lastly, there is also only 2 decent units in Ghost Bear. German Clan Ghost Bear (GCGB) and Clan Ghost Bear International (CGBI) but, CGBI doesn't participate in CW anymore. The rest of the Ghost Bear units are pretty terrible."
A little hero worship maybe, hmm!!, you'd be surprised at the level of the players in some of the smaller units, and some of those small units have better players per head than the bigger units we just don't smother the entire site with huge banners and running page upon page of websites or making movies and blah, blah, blah, not to offend our clan brothers but if they are so great then why have they allowed CGB to hold such a small territory for so long and not pushed a major offensive against the other Clans and or houses, why? because more time is spent admiring themselves and holding themselves above everyone else they don't regard the smaller units of any value, if they reached out and formed alliances with them then we could take and hold planets, different units in different time-zones make the difference not the size of one unit.

[Jep Jorgensson]

@ATTAKHAN666 Excellent points. It also occurs to me that if some of the best CGB units do not play CW anymore, then there must be a reason for it.

Ivan Romatovich, on 13 January 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Recruit and train. Fact is in the lower tiers (4 and 5), there are hundreds of factionless players aimlessly pugging in public matches. There are folks who have declared a faction but have no unit tag. Lead and swell your ranks. Last night we. (2323), had a full 12 running so those of us who came later formed up and went into cw as just a lance to start with. 4 of us with 8 randoms demolished the IS who faced us simply because the random cgb unitless listened, asked questions over voip and had them answered. You can not force population balance imo. You have too build it by being a unit or faction people want too be a part of. By being a positive example of the community. By being a leader.

And this is different from what the IS units are doing with their much larger player base with more appealing mech quirks and cheaper mechs... how?

Edited by Jep, 14 January 2016 - 06:25 PM.

[Fulgar]

Jep, on 14 January 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

And this is different from what the IS units are doing with their much larger player base with more appealing mech quirks and cheaper mechs ... how?

Comparing IS mechs to Clan mechs as Cheaper is not true at all. For example, take the Hunchie-4J, stock. Take the Stormcrow-A stock. Big discrepancy right???

Not so fast....take the fact that the IS Hunchie, does not have an XL, No Ferro, No Endo and No double heatsinks....So, you want the best hunchie you can field right??? Cause clan is OP - right?....

So, you put the XL 275 in there, upgrade to double heatsink because you need to, drop some Endo and Ferro on there....have a lot of weight left right, drop the ML for MPL and add a beagle for the left over 1.5 tons...

0 free slots on your Hunchie and just shy of 11.7 Million cbills. Stock Stormcrow-A is 11.3 with all of the above already on the mech....

So, do we really think the IS mechs are cheaper than a Clan mech?

In the above scenario, the IS mech ACTUALLY cost most than the Stormcrow-A stock....

Something to think about. I believe that is just one example.

Thanks,
Fulgar

PS. This is an enjoyable conversation and I do not want to derail it more than we should, I respect everyone's opinion and appreciate any other insight and advice.

[Ivan Romatovich Kerensky]

Jep, on 14 January 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

And this is different from what the IS units are doing with their much larger player base with more appealing mech quirks and cheaper mechs ... how?

It's not different. Are you looking to reinvent the wheel or something? To my knowledge, the only faction that activly seeks out new players and assists them 24/7 is the FRR. Scattered units through out the IS do so as well, but as a faction mission? Everyone on the same page? Only the FRR. An open TS server too all would be a step in the right direction. If the individual units would leave thier comfort zones and participate. What is happening now, and it's not just a CGB thingie, is the large influx of steam players are basicaly being fed upon by those of us who've been at this awhile. Efforts to outreach to the new folks are hit and miss and largely unorganized. Loyalist units, be they clan or IS. Would do well to hit the public matches on their main accounts or create alts to see the lower tiers and make the tools of this faction or units recruiting known too them.

The cheaper mechs point has been addressed a couple times already in the clearest way. I can't add to it. You accept it or you don't. The numbers are clear.

As too quirks, what trumps a quirked mech is a group of fun people too play together with. No new player, or even old one imo, is going to stick to their IS drop deck and solo over having a fun/competent group of people to game with. Tactics and solid team play trump quirks. If you can bring that to your new members, you have faction/unit loyalty. So I guess imo, you go back to having a welcoming faction that is willing to educate and train folks to beat whatever real or imagined quirk bias exists at any given time in game.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Fulgar, on 14 January 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Comparing IS mechs to Clan mechs as Cheaper is not true at all. For example, take the Hunchie-4J, stock. Take the Stormcrow-A stock. Big discrepancy right???

Not so fast....take the fact that the IS Hunchie, does not have an XL, No Ferro, No Endo and No double heatsinks....So, you want the best hunchie you can field right??? Cause clan is OP - right?....

So, you put the XL 275 in there, upgrade to double heatsink because you need to, drop some Endo and Ferro on there....have a lot of weight left right, drop the ML for MPL and add a beagle for the left over 1.5 tons...

0 free slots on your Hunchie and just shy of 11.7 Million cbills. Stock Stormcrow-A is 11.3 with all of the above already on the mech....

So, do we really think the IS mechs are cheaper than a Clan mech?

In the above scenario, the IS mech ACTUALLY cost most than the Stormcrow-A stock....

Something to think about. I believe that is just one example.

Thanks,
Fulgar

PS. This is an enjoyable conversation and I do not want to derail it more than we should, I respect everyone's opinion and appreciate any other insight and advice.

You are also assuming that said IS pilot is getting an XL engine. That is a mistake. I heard from a number of pilots that have been in IS units before that many IS pilots prefer the STD engine so they can still fight after having both of their side torsos destroyed.

Furthermore, having bought the IIC package, I know how IS mechs work. I have two of my IIC's in my drop deck, replacing two omnimechs. Why? Because I am able to better customize them. Their armor, internal, engine type and size, all the things I cannot do with my omnimechs. So try again.

Ivan Romatovich, on 14 January 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

As too quirks, what trumps a quirked mech is a group of fun people too play together with. No new player, or even old one imo, is going to stick to their IS drop deck and solo over having a fun/competent group of people to game with. Tactics and solid team play trump quirks. If you can bring that to your new members, you have faction/unit loyalty. So I guess imo, you go back to having a welcoming faction that is willing to educate and train folks to beat whatever real or imagined quirk bias exists at any given time in game.

Spelling and grammar aside, you are not listing anything that the IS cannot also do as well and so failed at providing a suitable answer.

Edited by Jep, 14 January 2016 - 06:43 PM.